Lease concerns

[thecolorcoal]

Hey everyone,

Recently since getting a job I had a young girl sign a lease to ride my green OTTB mare. I have never leased my horse out, and
I myself have had bad experiences leasing other people’s horses, so I wanted to be as fair as possible. The girl is high school age and obviously busy with a million and one extra curricular activities. She comes out to ride my horse but that is all she does - get on, get off, go home. Every time I offer her to come spend time with her, shadow farrier and vet visits (she wants her own horse), she says no and it is because her mom is unwilling to drive her if she is not riding.

Point of my post: since I am trying to show this girl the real
World of horse ownership, I want her to be involved with my horse’s care. She nor her mom seems that interested. The other day my horse had an appointment for a physio so she couldn’t be ridden, and the girl frantically texts me that this is going to cut into her ride time. I try and explain to her that we need to think about what is best for my mare.

It seems like these people think horses are little machines to do our bidding… The lease price is low low low and she gets a lot of ride time out of it, but mom doesn’t see the point in coming out to the barn unless it is to ride, and thus Leaser and horse are not creating a relationship, and horse is beginning to resent Leaser. Horse is starting behaviors she has NEVER done before, i.e. Bucking under saddle and after jumps, biting, and bolting when being lunged. Again ONLY when Leaser is working with her, NOT when I work with her (then she is a perfect angel). Saddle, back, teeth, etc were cleared by vet 3 days ago. Vet claims this attitude is behavioral and because of it horse is beginning to scare Leaser
So much that I think that is why she doesn’t come out to the barn…

Please help me find a way to explain to Leaser and mom the realities of horse ownership… In a way that won’t lose me my
Leaser. Because I think she wants this to work but mom is not supportive.

Thank you.

[thecolorcoal]

Footnote: Leaser rides at a very very high end barn and mom is refusing to have her take paid professional lessons on my horse, so I give free lessons to her on the weekends. Lease is not at their barn, but at my boarding stable that is a lot shabbier and lackluster compared to their gem-studded show barn.

Horse had physio and her poll and back were adjusted. We have completely ruled out pain reactions. In the past bad behavior under saddle has been pain related, but since pain is ruled out and horse is still acting up - again, ONLY with Leaser and not me or my friend who schools her for me - I am trying to help teach Leaser how to ride through.

[Mia_Sorella]

Sounds like you need to find a different leaser. She doesn’t take care of your horse the way you would like her to and her riding is causing behavioral issues with your horse. It’s not a good fit.

If your contract doesn’t stipulate that the girl MUST be involved in the horse care aspect beyond looking after the horse’s basic needs on her ride days, then it’s not really a fair expectation on your part. As much as it’s a nice idea, it’s not your job to explain the realities of horse ownership to this girl and her mother, and likewise they may not be interested in getting that education from you.

[Reynard]

Is it a good idea to lease a green horse to a green rider?

[Encourage]

I’m lease jaded- so take this with a grain of salt because I don’t think you want to hear this. End the lease.

I leased a green, but amateur friendly, TB out for 1.5 years to a younger girl who I thought was a good fit. He came back from the lease over a year ago and is only now sound. Mentally he’s fried still, I don’t know if I’ll get back the horse he was. I could go into the horrors and heart break I’ve gone through and am still going through, but I can’t even type them out without getting upset again.

If they’re already not getting along, or doing things in the lease you wanted them to, pull the horse out and wait for the right leaser to come along. It’s better to have a horse sit then be ruined.

[trubandloki]

It sounds like you and the person you are leasing to are on two different pages.
You want to teach horsemanship and they want to ride.

If you want your cheap (price lease to be a teaching experience and not just a riding experience then you are going to have to be upfront with the person you are leasing to and pick someone who is on the same page as you are.

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8939899]
and thus Leaser and horse are not creating a relationship, and horse is beginning to resent Leaser.[/QUOTE]
This made me laugh.
I doubt the horse cares if the person leasing is standing there when the farrier is there doing a trim.

If the horse’s bad behavior is not pain related then it is more likely riding style related. If they are not willing to pay for lessons on the horse then you need to either end the lease or greatly restrict what they are doing when riding.

[thecolorcoal]

Thanks everyone. These were the responses I knew inside but am in some denial about…

I have a big heart. What say you about the girl? I feel like there is something deeper I might be able to pull out of her or am I just being a dreamer? I’ve never leased my horse out before. I love her to bits and pieces but as this drags on I am getting more and more upset.

What shocks me is this is 180 from how I was as a leaser. I just can’t imagine ANYONE not wanting to learn the full aspects of horses hoof to ear, from mucking to clipping to giving shots. I wanted to be head-deep in it all, because I didn’t really have mentors when I bought my horse and only could draw from every blessed experience I had to experience real horse care growing up.

Now another question: is there a way to fix this or do I need to have a serious candid conversation with mom and Leaser? Is any hope to make them open their eyes lost?

[pattnic]

End the lease. This is not a good fit.

[Foxglove6]

Have a sit down with mom and daughter. Explain that unless some changes are made the lease will have to end. Explain that changes are necessary for daughter’s safety because the current situation is a dangerous riding situation. Mom should at least be able to hear that. Give them the stipulations you think might solve the problems. You will probably not get them to agree to the bonding time that you think is necessary. But frankly, you don’t have to bond with a horse to ride them safely. But there’s something happening during the daughter’s ride days that is causing the horse to not behave well and it must be fixed asap. I suggest you spend a day watching the daughter as if you are not there. Stay far enough back that your horse should be looking to daughter and not you. Observe the behavior so that you can address the specific behaviors that are contributing, whatever those might be.

Otherwise, just end the lease. You are not going to be able to instill good horsemanship in someone who doesn’t want to receive it.

[IronwoodFarm]

I’ve had a similar experience with a lovely teenager who has been taking lessons from my farm and showing one of my Fjords. She’s really a nice kid, but there is no interest in the horse aside from riding. The young lady is in 4-H, but doesn’t seem involved in the horse care aspect. There is no formal lease and I don’t charge for use. Her mother is very kind and lovely, but there really is a disconnect about horse care.

Lately the teen has been foxhunting a friend’s mount and I think she is moving on. I can’t say that I am heartbroken when I see her interest is only in riding and showing.

Good luck in keeping the leaser. If her riding your horse is creating behavioral issues, I question why you would want it to continue. I think it is time for a change.

[thecolorcoal]

Thanks everyone. I really do appreciate and I am happy that others also think this is a bad situation, defending my gut feeling.

I agree: my horse has Never EVER bucked anyone off and this girl has nearly fallen off 5 times so far from horse crow hopping and attempting to toss her over her head. I have begrudgingly turned to stronger bits (horse rides in a loose ring snaffle) and this has made the problem worse, not with the bucking but this girl reefs on my poor baby’s mouth with the gag I gave her so I had to put her back in the snaffle as fast as I could.

Understand that I am also pretty green to teaching green riders. I work with experienced riders who know as much as I do. I think my mare could teach this girl a lot if she was willing to learn.

I am going to push for lessons. If mom says no then the lease will end. I need this girl to be monitored as I am afraid someone will get hurt.

Can I just say I hate being an adult sometimes?!

I am very very disappointed. I only agreed because this girl talked up about how “good she was,” and upon the initial ride I could tell this might not be the case but I gave her the benefit of the doubt… Now I feel like a giant fool.

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8940000]
Thanks everyone. I really do appreciate and I am happy that others also think this is a bad situation, defending my gut feeling.

I agree: my horse has Never EVER bucked anyone off and this girl has nearly fallen off 5 times so far from horse crow hopping and attempting to toss her over her head. I have begrudgingly turned to stronger bits (horse rides in a loose ring snaffle) and this has made the problem worse, not with the bucking but this girl reefs on my poor baby’s mouth with the gag I gave her so I had to put her back in the snaffle as fast as I could.

Understand that I am also pretty green to teaching green riders. I work with experienced riders who know as much as I do. I think my mare could teach this girl a lot if she was willing to learn.

I am going to push for lessons. If mom says no then the lease will end. I need this girl to be monitored as I am afraid someone will get hurt.

Can I just say I hate being an adult sometimes?! :([/QUOTE]

What is it that you think your green, unhappy horse could teach this girl?

[thecolorcoal]

@reynard, well I did not expect her to react this badly to this rider, so I thought she could learn jumping on a more difficult mount (my mare is very forward and powerful), and I did learn how to “ride” on horses who wanted to throw me/leave me in the sand, so I see some value in riding difficult horses who do buck or exhibit bad behavior, so that was my new thinking as these issues began to surface.

But now we are getting to the point where it is ridiculous, and she is an outlying factor that none of us can replicate. I can’t get any bucks out of her no matter how hard I try, neither can my friend and neither can my “schooler.” So I suppose this is a case of bad fit.

[Reynard]

Sod the girl, it is your responsibility to do what is right for the horse.

[AppendixQHLover]

Do right by your horse and end the lease. It isn’t a good fit and the mom who is the money provider won’t get her professional lessons on the horse. Don’t risk ruining your green horse and having to retrain her again. It isn’t worth it.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you. Yes I am finding myself unschooling rather than schooling. I know what triggers these behaviors though: upon landing girl will not sit up and leans on horse’s neck. Horse gets mad and dips head down. I’ve told her before to snap back after landing but she is afraid horse will “bolt” based on her previous ottb experience. My horse had never bolted, not once!

Now I am just complaining haha!! I’m planning on talking to
Mom and Leaser this weekend and get us all on the same
Page…

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8940058]
Thank you. Yes I am finding myself unschooling rather than schooling. I know what triggers these behaviors though: upon landing girl will not sit up and leans on horse’s neck. Horse gets mad and dips head down. I’ve told her before to snap back after landing but she is afraid horse will “bolt” based on her previous ottb experience. My horse had never bolted, not once!

Now I am just complaining haha!! I’m planning on talking to
Mom and Leaser this weekend and get us all on the same
Page…[/QUOTE]

Strange.
But let’s go with this reasoning - then why is the girl still jumping your horse?

[TheHotSensitiveType]

The more information you share, the worse this lease situation sounds… I don’t think at this point them agreeing to lessons is good enough. They need to put your horse in full training with the daughter taking lessons from the trainer at the same time. Anything less, the lease needs terminated.

She is going to get hurt AND is teaching your horse horrible things under saddle. And she is severely limited by having to be driven to places. If her Mom will not drive her to the barn except for riding, then there is nothing she can do even if she wanted to. And to be honest, neither seem very interested in that aspect whereas you are. This in itself would be enough to end the lease and look for someone else who is more aligned with what you want.

It is great that you are offering to give her free lessons, but with how much your horse’s attitude has degraded under saddle, this is not enough. Bitting up (most of the time) is a band aid for the underlying problem… and the bits will just need to get bigger… If they will not agree to full training (almost guarantee they will not), then terminate the lease. Have your friend ride a couple times a week if you can until you find a leaser that is happy to receive what you two have to offer.

[Foxglove6]

Yeah, if you’re worried about bolting, the thing to do would be to sit down. If she thinks leaning on a horse’s neck after jumping is a good idea, she is not good enough to be riding, let alone jumping!, a green horse.

[NurseHorsey]

I haven’t been on the boards much recently but reading this, I had to comment…

I was a similar lesson kid/leasee growing up, OP - I wanted to know vet care, farrier info, why the horse went in that bit and not this bit, ect. I was nosy and interested in all aspects of horses, not just riding. My program/trainer didn’t allow students to be any other way - you either got with the program or you found a different barn.

It sounds like this girl is in a show barn, probably with grooms, and just isn’t familiar with the idea that there is more to riding than just getting on the horse. Now, you could take the time and try to mentor this girl BUT from what you’ve described here, there are a ton of factors working against you - her mom isn’t supportive, she has lots of other activities going on, and she hasn’t expressed any interest, not to mention that she is clearly not a good rider for your horse.

Since you’ve ruled out saddle fit issues or physical pain, it’s obvious your horse is trying to communicate her unhappiness via the bucking, crow hopping, and other behaviors - she’s saying, “I don’t like this rider! This makes me uncomfortable!” Listen to your horse - that’s your primary responsibility.