Leaving tails on traditionally docked breeds and showing them in AKC conformation...

[MissCapitalSplash]

What the title says. Has anyone done this? Left a tail on a gorgeous rottie, aussie, dobie, pembroke welsh corgi, etc, and showed in it AKC conformation in the US?

I am really, really tired of docking tails in my breed. There is no reason for it. I want to leave a tail on a super nice puppy (well, an entire litter) and show it in conformation. I know some judges won’t use a tailed dog in a breed that is typically docked, but it is not a DQ. I think if the dog is an excellent representation of the breed, it should be used, tail or not.

So, tell me your stories. Would this be the end of it for me? I just see no reason to continue the senseless, painful process of tail docking in my breed. Maybe I need to move to Europe.

[danceronice]

Hm. I’d be interested to know what judges do with it, though tail-docking bothers me less than ear-clipping.

Although, in fairness to those who clip their dobermans’ ears, my reaction to natural-earred dobies is “AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW whose got the floppy ears? You do!” They look so cute and puppydogface. Which is really not the result the breed’s going for…

[didgery]

Do it! If you don’t get the notice of the judge, at least you’ll get the notice of other compassionate owners. It could start a trend.

Someone has to go against the grain first—why not you? Stand up for your principles!

[jetsmom]

I really like undocked/natural eared dogs. I think you should do it.
I had 2 Cocker Spaniels (at different times) whose tails were not docked. They were cute, and wagged those tails all of the time.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I am with danceronice. The tails bother me less than the ears. Tail dockings is done earlier and a quicker process than cropping ears.

I have breed that does both ears and tails (Bouvs).

My current 2 have natural ears and docked tails. I love the sound of the floppy ears when they shake their head.

Showed my boy with natural ears.

I’ve seen pictures of Bouvs with natural tails and they are, for me, a bit long and heavy -both visually and from clearing the coffee table in one sweep perspective.

[Wellspotted]

Go for it! That is how bad fashions end and good ones start. Someone, somewhere, decided to quit docking his/her horses’ tails, and look where we are now! In a much better place, tail-wise at least.

When you take a brave step, sometimes it is surprising how many sympathizers and supporters come out of the woodwork, just as if they have been waiting for someone with more courage to step out, then they follow. Sometimes.

I don’t understand danceronice’s comment about the result the Dobermann Pinscher is going for, with natural ears. As far as I know, the US is the only country that goes for the cropped look in Dobermans. I do know that in the UK the ears are left natural. (And I did not misspell the breed name; I used the European and US spellings deliberately.

[sisu27]

As a Dobe enthusiast I don’t like it on my breed and strongly prefer docked tails and CORRECT cropped ears. I had one with natural ears and tail…ears not such an issue but the tail was a disaster! Constantly bleeding and covered in scabs, cleared the table, it HURT when she got you with it…she never could stop wagging it!

I would have to wonder if you wouldn’t put yourself at a disadvantage no matter what is allowable or not??

It seems to be more acceptable with some breeds than others.

ETA I understand what Danceronice is saying…Dobes are not meant to look squishy and cute…they aren’t…I agree. In the UK people do still dock and crop even though it is not legal (foxhunting anyone?) and in eastern European countries Dobes are still correct. There is slightly more to Europe than the UK.

[wireweiners]

Actually, I think docking is in the standard of traditionally docked breeds along with a description of the ideal tail length. So if you showed a traditionally docked breed in conformation without docking then you would either be DQ’d or heavily penalized. So if you want to waste your entry money, go ahead. Personally I think tails on docked breeds just look weird. Uncropped ears, not so much, especially if the ears are tipped like fox terrier ears. An uncropped, undocked doberman would look like a black and tan coonhound.

[Alagirl]

(I think Corkies are born that way? no?)

Ear cropping? Not a fan of. It used to have a practical purpose on the breed when they were bred for work.
Same as docking.

However, you should not run into major problems with ears as you could with tails.

Not a docked breed, but we had a great dane who developed a problem…it was nasty and took forever to heal, in the process she lost a bit off the tip!

One theory is that dogs bred for so long to crop the tails really short they don’t develop a strong tail bone…I don’t know…

But you certainly can start a trend.
My mom had a docked Vizsla, his tail was like a night stick…the natural specimen I met last summer, she isn’t any worse with a long tail (at least the tail is not the part that made here a red hot mess!

[Bluey]

Cropping ears, well, a dobie looks like a dobie anyway, cropped or not.

On tails, I know of several dane owners that had to give up and amputate tails, when their dog’s tails kept getting injured and would not heal, no matter what they tried.
For those dogs, cutting their tails at two days old would have been easier.

Our aussie was not docked, she had a full tail and for a working dog, you don’t need to cut their tails.
Some are born with short tails or nubs.

I don’t think tail docking is objectionable as a procedure.
Ear cropping is.
If you ever have to take care of puppies that were cropped, you will know why.
While it may not be clear abuse, it sure is walking close to that line.

I think it is questionable breeding deformed dogs, like dachshunds and corgis, just because they look cute with their dwarf characteristics.

There is no accounting for taste, there are all kinds of dogs to suit anyone’s taste.

[wireweiners]

Bluey, dachshunds were not bred for short legs because “they look cute with their dwarf characteristics”. They were bred to fit down rabbit, fox and badger holes. I’ve heard that corgis were bred to be short so they could avoid being kicked by cattle. Bassets were bred to be short so the portly French aristocrats could keep up with them while hunting.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@wireweiners;5875149

Actually, I think docking is in the standard of traditionally docked breeds along with a description of the ideal tail length. So if you showed a traditionally docked breed in conformation without docking then you would either be DQ’d or heavily penalized.

I don’t believe this is quite correct. It should be in the breed standard how a non-docked tail (or non-cropped ears) are to be treated; ie, DQ or penalized or acceptable.

Having said that, you may be subconsciously penalized by some judges even if there should be no penalty applied for cropped/docked ears/tails.

[MyGiantPony]

From the AKC website -

Surgery, Allowable Procedures, Cropping, Docking, Debarking, Declaws

Why does the AKC allow surgical procedures like debarking, ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal?</STRONG>

The American Kennel Club recognizes that ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal, as described in certain breed standards, are acceptable practices integral to defining and preserving the breed character and/or enhancing good health. Appropriate veterinary care should be provided.

AKC rules do prohibit changes in appearance “except as specified in the standard for the breed.” If a breed standard provides for ear cropping, tail docking, or dewclaw removal, it is permitted. No AKC breed standard has a disqualification for any of these alterations.

Ear cropping is a decision made by a dog’s breeder or owner. While it is true that some breeds are shown with their ears cropped, there is nothing in AKC rules and in fact nothing in any breed standard that compels an owner to have this procedure performed as a prerequisite to entry at a dog show. Even if it is traditional in a particular breed that the dogs have one of these alterations, it has the same potential to win as any other dog of the breed and will only be judged based on the compliance of that dog to the breed standard.
Debarking is also a decision left up to a dog’s breeder or owner. Because debarking does not change the appearance or temperament of a dog, the AKC Board has determined that debarking does not make a dog ineligible. This procedure allows owners to alleviate noise in populated neighborhoods so that the dogs do not become a nuisance.

[Mara]

[QUOTE=MyGiantPony;5875397]
From the AKC website -

Surgery, Allowable Procedures, Cropping, Docking, Debarking, Declaws

Why does the AKC allow surgical procedures like debarking, ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal?</STRONG>

The American Kennel Club recognizes that ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal, as described in certain breed standards, are acceptable practices integral to defining and preserving the breed character and/or enhancing good health. Appropriate veterinary care should be provided.

AKC rules do prohibit changes in appearance “except as specified in the standard for the breed.” If a breed standard provides for ear cropping, tail docking, or dewclaw removal, it is permitted. No AKC breed standard has a disqualification for any of these alterations.

Ear cropping is a decision made by a dog’s breeder or owner. While it is true that some breeds are shown with their ears cropped, there is nothing in AKC rules and in fact nothing in any breed standard that compels an owner to have this procedure performed as a prerequisite to entry at a dog show. Even if it is traditional in a particular breed that the dogs have one of these alterations, it has the same potential to win as any other dog of the breed and will only be judged based on the compliance of that dog to the breed standard.
Debarking is also a decision left up to a dog’s breeder or owner. Because debarking does not change the appearance or temperament of a dog, the AKC Board has determined that debarking does not make a dog ineligible. This procedure allows owners to alleviate noise in populated neighborhoods so that the dogs do not become a nuisance.[/QUOTE]

Not quite the same as docking and cropping, but it’s also perfectly within the rules to show a Poodle without giving it a totally ridiculous haircut. One more example of something that started with practical intentions but was taken to an insane extreme by the dictates of “fashion”.

My very first dog, and one of the best dogs EVER, was a Poodle. It’s really hard sometimes to convince people, particularly men, that Poodles are smashingly wonderful companions for just about anything you want to do with them. They cannot see past those dumb frizzy hairstyles.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=wireweiners;5875230]
Bluey, dachshunds were not bred for short legs because “they look cute with their dwarf characteristics”. They were bred to fit down rabbit, fox and badger holes. I’ve heard that corgis were bred to be short so they could avoid being kicked by cattle. Bassets were bred to be short so the portly French aristocrats could keep up with them while hunting.[/QUOTE]

Well, the reality is that we are breeding for a deformity and unsoundness there, just as with pushed in faces in pugs and bulldogs, or hypothyroidism in wrinkled dogs so they have wrinkles.

That is my point, there are reasons for everything anyone does, the kind of animals they choose to own and what characteristics they want in them.

Hard to determine where to draw the line of what is acceptable.

We either give others the right to do what they want, within a certain common sense area, where there is no real, direct abuse, or by pointing fingers at those we don’t care for, then don’t complain when others point fingers at what we do want in ours.

[eponacelt]

I’d never really given much thought to docking or not docking. All my terriers came with properly docked tails of the appropriate length. I get that they are supposed to be “handles” when the terriers get down a hole, at least in some of the smaller terriers.

Then we got the Beast. Murphy is half Boxer, half Plott and I now understand why tail docking became so common in larger breeds. We got Murphy as a small, 4 week old puppy rescue. And we knew he’d be big. But his tail is now about 1" diameter at its base, and probably a good 18-20" long. And that sucker is a deadly weapon. It’ll break anything on the coffee table, leave bruises on your legs, and the poor Irish terriers - well, don’t get me started. The wince every time they’re around his hind end.

And as someone else said, we can’t get him to stop wagging his tail. Its ridiculous.

That said, I positively adore his floppy ears.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1871138181547.2109700.1333915056&l=a0f6a5b881&type=1

[cheval_convert]

I have an aussie with a tail. He was 3 when I adopted him, so he will always have a tail. I find that when it comes to catching the frisbee it has made him that much more agile because that tail acts like a rudder in the air. However, he has cleaned off a coffee table once or twice and that was never a problem with my other aussies. I like his look and if I were to buy a pup I would not dock the tail if the pup had one. However, I am not going on the show circuit either, so my dog’s looks will not be judged. If you prefer not to dock then go for it!:yes:

[Guin]

I have a corgi with the docked tail, but if I ever got another one, I’d want the tail left alone. I don’t use mine to herd cattle, so the tail isn’t an encumbrance. I think they look even more like little foxes with natural tails! :yes:

[Bacardi1]

[QUOTE=sisu27;5874989]
As a Dobe enthusiast I don’t like it on my breed and strongly prefer docked tails and CORRECT cropped ears. I had one with natural ears and tail…ears not such an issue but the tail was a disaster! Constantly bleeding and covered in scabs, cleared the table, it HURT when she got you with it…she never could stop wagging it!

I would have to wonder if you wouldn’t put yourself at a disadvantage no matter what is allowable or not??

It seems to be more acceptable with some breeds than others.

ETA I understand what Danceronice is saying…Dobes are not meant to look squishy and cute…they aren’t…I agree. In the UK people do still dock and crop even though it is not legal (foxhunting anyone?) and in eastern European countries Dobes are still correct. There is slightly more to Europe than the UK.[/QUOTE]

Oh Lord - re: the tails I TOTALLY agree. We adopted a blue Dobie that had an undocked tail & it was a disaster from day to day. Every time she whacked that tail against something blood would flow & spatter everywhere. Frankly, I don’t think Dobies were meant to have long tails - lol!

Now re: the ears, we’ve had 2 Dobies with natural ears & one with set ears. All 3 were wonderful dogs, & while I have to admit that I do like the set ear look, I like the dogs more for their personality than the “look”.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5875608]
Well, the reality is that we are breeding for a deformity and unsoundness there, just as with pushed in faces in pugs and bulldogs, or hypothyroidism in wrinkled dogs so they have wrinkles.[/QUOTE]

I see very little unsoundness in corgis as opposed to the labs and goldens I see as patients.

As for the question posed by the OP, I do know that there is at least one corgi with a natural tail who finished his championship. And yes, some are born with a natural “bob” tail. Some will have a half tail at birth and some a full tail. I know that the vote was very close the last time it came up with the national breed club in regards to allowing both natural and docked tails. The ones with natural tails who have competed have mostly been European imports. We’ll dock the tails on the next litter, but I think we’ll give it up within the next few years.