Leaving tails on traditionally docked breeds and showing them in AKC conformation...

[S1969]

[QUOTE=wireweiners;5875149]
Actually, I think docking is in the standard of traditionally docked breeds along with a description of the ideal tail length. So if you showed a traditionally docked breed in conformation without docking then you would either be DQ’d or heavily penalized. [/QUOTE]

This. You must read your dog’s breed standard. My breed (brittany) standard says: Tail–Tailless to approximately four inches, natural or docked. The tail not to be so long as to affect the overall balance of the dog. Set on high, actually an extension of the spine at about the same level. Any tail substantially more than four inches shall be severely penalized.

Every breed is different.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;5876072]
I see very little unsoundness in corgis as opposed to the labs and goldens I see as patients.

As for the question posed by the OP, I do know that there is at least one corgi with a natural tail who finished his championship. And yes, some are born with a natural “bob” tail. Some will have a half tail at birth and some a full tail. I know that the vote was very close the last time it came up with the national breed club in regards to allowing both natural and docked tails. The ones with natural tails who have competed have mostly been European imports. We’ll dock the tails on the next litter, but I think we’ll give it up within the next few years.[/QUOTE]

You may ask any veterinarian about problems in breeds with short legs and long backs.

If other breeds have their issues doesn’t mean anything when it comes to breeding for a characteristic that inherently causes problems, that was my point.

Anyone with those breeds knows to be extra careful to restrict their dog to activities to protect their deficiencies.

We have some great corgis in agility in our dog club, but they do have to be managed very carefully, just as any other dog, adding special care because of their short legs and long backs.
You really can’t say those deformities are harmless.
They were chosen by breeders because they fulfill their preferences for their dogs, not because they are good for the dog, just as other we do when breeding animals for our use.

[HydroPHILE]

There are several AKC Ch. that have finished with natural ears, natural tails, etc. including, but not limited to, Doberman Pinschers and American Staffordshire Terriers.

In the case of AmStaffs, however, cropped ears are accepted, and if the dog’s ears are not cropped, they are to be “rose prick” ears (a certain ear set) versus some of the other disqualifying set. My “beef” with that is…if “rose prick” is breed standard natural ears, how is someone to know if a cropped dog’s ears would have been “rose prick.” While I understand that the ear set doesn’t make or break a dog, it just puzzles me.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=HydroPHILE;5876584]
There are several AKC Ch. that have finished with natural ears, natural tails, etc. including, but not limited to, Doberman Pinschers and American Staffordshire Terriers.

In the case of AmStaffs, however, cropped ears are accepted, and if the dog’s ears are not cropped, they are to be “rose prick” ears (a certain ear set) versus some of the other disqualifying set. My “beef” with that is…if “rose prick” is breed standard natural ears, how is someone to know if a cropped dog’s ears would have been “rose prick.” While I understand that the ear set doesn’t make or break a dog, it just puzzles me.[/QUOTE]

I read that, when in England cropping was banned, many dobie breeders found themselves with all kinds of ear sets, as, like you say, no one had been breeding for any one specific type of ears.:lol:

I heard breeders say it took some years to stabilize the hound type ear set they prefer today, but they still have other kinds crop up regularly.
I am not familiar with their conformation shows, so can’t say if the judging has a preference there.

I admire the neat, elegant look of cropped ears in danes and dobies, but after getting three dobie puppies with just cropped ears from the breeders and working on them to eventually stand up, I don’t want to have to do that again, so quit getting dobies, since in those days the good breeders would not sell one before the ears were cut.

While I respect and defend the right of others to whatever they want with their dogs or any other animal, bar direct clear abuse like dog fighting, I also have the right to say I don’t like some of what others do.:yes:

[wendy]

I think ear cropping is flat-out inhumane and wish they would ban it on humanitarian grounds. Painful surgery followed by horrible months of taping during the most important parts of a dog’s life. I’ve gone to puppy classes and seen young healing taped-up puppies who couldn’t participate in socialization properly because of their ear surgery, or were learning all of the wrong things (interacting with other puppies hurts! just what you want a young, impressionable puppy to learn). Which of course will affect their behavior for the rest of their lives. Besides, most “cropped” breeds look awful in comparison to their natural-eared counterparts. Particularly Danes- the current fashion for extremely long pricked cropped ears look stupid on Danes; a Dane looks really good with natural ears, more like the mastiff-type breed they are supposed to be. Boxers, too, look far better with natural ears.

Anyway, really, if you want a breed to look a certain way, why don’t the breeders breed for it instead of using cosmetic surgery? One group managed to rapidly transfer the trait for natural bob-tails from corgis into boxers in only a few generations: http://www.boxberry.net/page4.asp

Of course the AKC will object because, due to the out-crossing, they aren’t, technically, “purebreds” anymore. But maybe they could use genetic testing and/or exemptions or something to get dogs who actually, NATURALLY meet the breed standard recognized and accepted. Or perhaps someone could use a bit of genetic engineering to transfer bob-tail and prick-ear traits into breeds where they want the dogs to look that way.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=Bacardi1;5875876]

Now re: the ears, we’ve had 2 Dobies with natural ears & one with set ears. All 3 were wonderful dogs, & while I have to admit that I do like the set ear look, I like the dogs more for their personality than the “look”.[/QUOTE]

The thing with Dobie ears–they don’t look at ALL intimidating, and if I wanted a Doberman for guard dog reasons, I would want it to look scary. (If I’m getting a guard dog, I’d prefer it just scare someone into not even THINKING about breaking in.) So I can kind of see if they’re going for the work/defense dog look, the floppy goofy expression doesn’t work.

Corgis, I’ve never seen a Pembroke without its tail docked. Mine has her done, though I got her at the pound as an adult so it was well before I ever got her.

As for Corgis and dachshunds, it might be a “deformity”, but they couldn’t do the jobs they were created for without it. They’re mostly pets now, but most of the herding and terrier and working group breeds have odd body shapes for a reason–it’s what worked for the purpose they were made for. (Toys with pushed-in faces, I don’t get, as unlike large bulldogs, they weren’t being bred to minimize grab ares in pit fights and bull baiting. The English Toy Spaniel and Cavalier King Charles split in part to get the pointed Spaniel nose back on the Cavalier as the English Toy was getting an almost puglike face.)

I’ll never understand why my old BO had her Dane’s ears done, which just made him look odd (they’re like reverse Dobermans), but left his whip tail. That sucker HURT when it hit you and I can’t imagine it didn’t hurt him when the was whapping it against a wall. His ears weren’t bothering anything.

[fordtraktor]

Good for you, OP. I think it is inhumane to dock tails and clip ears, the same as I think it is inhumane to declaw cats.

My JRT has a tail and as far as I can tell it hasn’t hurt anything or anyone. I’d imagine it would be a better handle than a stub would be down in a hole.

[wendy]

but left his whip tail. That sucker HURT when it hit you and I can’t imagine it didn’t hurt him when the was whapping it against a wall. His ears weren’t bothering anything.

Danes aren’t supposed to have docked tails? and there is a HUGE difference between docking a newborn puppy’s tail and having a dog’s tail amputated- tail amputation is a major, painful surgery that should be avoided at all costs, and only undertaken if the dog has suffered serious injury to his tail.

[Bacardi1]

The AKC standard for Great Danes calls for an undocked tail, so breeders do not dock them at birth, particularly if they’re breeding for show.

While nothing is stopping a non-show breeder from docking, the majority of Danes you come across with docked tails will have most likely had them removed later in the dog’s life due to an injury.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=sisu27;5874989]
As a Dobe enthusiast I don’t like it on my breed and strongly prefer docked tails and CORRECT cropped ears. I had one with natural ears and tail…ears not such an issue but the tail was a disaster! Constantly bleeding and covered in scabs, cleared the table, it HURT when she got you with it…she never could stop wagging it!

I would have to wonder if you wouldn’t put yourself at a disadvantage no matter what is allowable or not??

It seems to be more acceptable with some breeds than others.

ETA I understand what Danceronice is saying…Dobes are not meant to look squishy and cute…they aren’t…I agree. In the UK people do still dock and crop even though it is not legal (foxhunting anyone?) and in eastern European countries Dobes are still correct. There is slightly more to Europe than the UK.[/QUOTE]

I had 2 with natural ears and that turned me off of natural ears for Dobes. Their ears are so thin they get cut so easy, bleed so profusely and then you have hematomas to deal with. I hope they never make it illegal to crop or dock. But I’m totally to each his own, I don’t mind if someone else prefers natural ears and tails.

[Kryswyn]

I hate the look of dobermans, danes and boxers with natural ears. Fortunately I don’t, won’t, own any of them and so I will never have to decide whether to crop ears. As for tails, if done before 10 days of age (3-5 is preferable) it is not a big deal and if a breeder has the stones to do it themselves it is less painful and less stressful than taking them to vets. And NO it’s not practicing vet medicine w/o a license if it’s your own dog.

As a breeder of Jacks I’ve done my own tails and dewclaws since my 3 litter, after being displeased with different vets work. The puppy I just purchased had had her tail and dewclaws done by the breeder’s vet (she’s too squeamish to do them herself) and one dewclaw was done so poorly that it grew back. Since the breeder apparently missed this, it will be a painful surgery which I’ll combine with something else requiring sedation. And YES it has to come off. Jacks are too athletic and ‘handsy’ to have dewclaws. I’ve had a couple with them and they were always tearing them off and bleeding like stuck pigs.

As for whether undocked/uncropped dogs will do okay in their show career, IMHO it completely depends on the judge. European judges will probably pin them. US judges will pin the cropped and docked.

[Alagirl]

LOL, you just doomed yourself!
Tomorrow a pack of uncropped Dobies and Danes will move in with you! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=danceronice;5876680]
The thing with Dobie ears–they don’t look at ALL intimidating, and if I wanted a Doberman for guard dog reasons, I would want it to look scary. (If I’m getting a guard dog, I’d prefer it just scare someone into not even THINKING about breaking in.) So I can kind of see if they’re going for the work/defense dog look, the floppy goofy expression doesn’t work.
.[/QUOTE]

I had a big solid Dobie with natural ears, and he still scared the sh!t out of everyone when he got to growling his big dangerous dog growl.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Megaladon;5876911]
I had 2 with natural ears and that turned me off of natural ears for Dobes. Their ears are so thin they get cut so easy, bleed so profusely and then you have hematomas to deal with. I hope they never make it illegal to crop or dock. But I’m totally to each his own, I don’t mind if someone else prefers natural ears and tails. :)[/QUOTE]

That is true, I have also seen dobies “with their ears on” that had to get big hematomas drained and the ear flap stitched to keep them from coming back.
I also wondered how many would have torn ears living here, where from barbed wire fences to mesquite have thorns that cut you up easily.
Not the best place to have very think skinned dogs roaming around.

I will repeat, I don’t think anyone should stop breeding or doing whatever they find reasons to do with their dogs, but I think that debating about this is important to realize that not everyone sees these topics the same way.

I think that banning cropping and docking, as they did in England, was overstepping into the rights of those that prefer their dogs cropped and/or docked, if the rest of us like it or not.
I hope that we don’t go there in the USA.

[irkenequine]

I’m going to be blunt and harsh but this is a subject i am so tired of hashing out.

If you’re breeding Dobermans, and you leave the ears and tail natural and it looks like a Coonhound–THEN YOURE BREEDING CRAPPY DOBERMANS. If the only identifier it has is a man-made on added later, then clearly that line is lacking the essence of whats required of that breed.

There are so many dog breeds out there that look intimidating without cropped ears. I don’t buy that people must get their dogs ears cropped for some sort of security measure or pious health precautions of a cut ear on the owners part. :no: It is human aesthetics, period. Which doesn’t make you a bad person–thats part of the reason why we own the breeds we own, why we breed for chrome, abcdefg. I personally just cannot imagine surgically altering my dogs in an invasive way for visual satisfaction.

(which I don’t even know how that will play out over the next 40 years which as I am told by the vets I work with, they no longer even teach cropping in vet school).

We have been able to manipulate dog genes in INCREDIBLE ways over such a short period of time–from Great Danes to Pulis to Chihuahuas to Borozois to Bull Terrier. I have great faith that we could breed upright ears or docked tails into Dobermans/Boxers, whatever if that was TRULY wanted.

[Wellspotted]

[QUOTE=Mara;5875419]
Not quite the same as docking and cropping, but it’s also perfectly within the rules to show a Poodle without giving it a totally ridiculous haircut. One more example of something that started with practical intentions but was taken to an insane extreme by the dictates of “fashion”.

My very first dog, and one of the best dogs EVER, was a Poodle. It’s really hard sometimes to convince people, particularly men, that Poodles are smashingly wonderful companions for just about anything you want to do with them. They cannot see past those dumb frizzy hairstyles.[/QUOTE]

An example of how times change attitudes–poodles were originally hunting dogs! (which is where the clips come from). The show clip some people think looks dumb (I do) is actually a traditional hunting clip–dressed up for showing, maybe. Apparently the original German guys who hunted them didn’t think the clip was dumb.

When I was a child I occasionally saw a dyed Poodle. People used to dye their coats. Now that was not only dumb, that was just plain wrong!

And re: dobies and coonhounds–what irkenequine said I second. Anyone who sees a natural Dobie and thinks they’re seeing a Black and Tan Coonhound just hasn’t seen a real Black and Tan Coonhound. Might as well say a Toy Manchester Terrier looks like a black and tan minpin.

Seriously–would any of you really mistake this dog for a Doberman?
http://dogbreedsinfo.org/Black-and-Tan-Coonhound.html

[RHdobes563]

I’ve owned 7 Dobermans. I don’t show in conformation, but I do show in competitive obedience.

Five were natural-earred and docked, one was cropped and docked, and one was natural-earred and undocked. None of my dogs had any problems with hematomas in their ears, and my undocked dog neither swept items off tables with his tail nor ever injured it.

My first dog (natural/docked) had the look of eagles, as does my current female. Dante’ was occasionally mistaken for a RottieX (when he got too heavy), and my fawn female (natural/docked) is often mistaken for a Weimaraner. My second dog (natural/docked) held her ears out at a strange angle, not very pretty. My third Doberman (natural/docked) WAS mistaken for a Black and Tan Coonhound at a dog show. My fourth Doberman, a red male, was intimidating looking, but he was only a danger to other male dogs. My fifth Doberman (natural/undocked) looked like a Doberman, but the sight of that long tail curling over his back… :lol: I used to call him my “German Sighthound.”

I fell in love with the breed after seeing the movie, “The Doberman Gang.” I still love a cropped/docked Doberman. However, I don’t care for the overly long crop occasionally seen in the ring. You know, the ears that fall over at the end or flop around when the dogs are gaited. My cropped male had more bell, I think the term is, and I rather prefer the length of ears I’ve seen of dogs in the early to mid-20th century. Oh, and my red dog never experience any “pain” with his cropped ears.

Despite loving the look of cropped ears, I would not be a good one to have to TAKE CARE of a newly cropped puppy. I do not believe that the puppies are in constant pain once done, but I’m just not good on following up on taping/fixing/setting/whatever.

I don’t necessarily LOVE the look of a totally natural Doberman. It’s just that mine was an extraordinary good dog in the obedience ring. He LOVED obedience. When he had to do a long sit, his tail constantly wagged, which meant it loudly slapped the floor, drawing smiles and positive attention to him. He was a dog that could do a TRUE “fast” without getting left behind and other changes of gait precisely. And he LOVED to work—the longer you practiced the better and happier he got. Because of HIS attitude, I am attracted to totally natural dogs. Like I am NOT attracted to red Dobes, because of my own difficult dog. (Dobermans can be same-sex aggressive—he was—but I had 3 male Dobermans and 1 male mixed breed living together in perfect harmony, along with that VERY difficult red Dobe who didn’t.)

Since my first Doberman, Dante’, was a heart-dog, loved people over other dogs, extremely loyal, VERY intelligent, and quick to learn anything, I look at other uncropped/docked Dobermans with great affection.

The AKC does not make the decision about cropping/docking/whatever in the breeds. It is up to the parent breed club, and if it changes its standards, the AKC says ‘fine.’

I heard that although some European countries ban cropping ears, they do not penalize dogs that have had it done SOMEWHERE ELSE. I’ve heard that some owners go to another country to have it done to their dogs and then bring them back to show in their own country. Just what I heard.

I would like to comment on some other posts, but I have to eat some supper before dog class tonight. :winkgrin:

[S1969]

@RHdobes563;5877670

I heard that although some European countries ban cropping ears, they do not penalize dogs that have had it done SOMEWHERE ELSE. I’ve heard that some owners go to another country to have it done to their dogs and then bring them back to show in their own country. Just what I heard.

Could be true. Things are changing in Australia, so it will soon be (if not already) impossible to show a dog with a docked tail, whether it was done in Australia or not. Which sounds like no big deal, until you consider that they may never be able to get other good breeding lines from outside the country again unless the rules change elsewhere. Because in my breed in the US, it is impossible to show a dog with a tail longer than 4" so everyone docks it at birth – long before you can determine breeding quality. A breeder will be unlikely to keep a puppy “undocked” until they can determine whether they are good enough to export to Australia.

So while people may feel it is a humane thing to ban cropping and docking…it might not actually be good for the breed unless every kennel club changes their rules. (It might actually result in closer breedings. Who knows. An interesting issue to consider.

[Marshfield]

@Bluey;5876345

You may ask any veterinarian about problems in breeds with short legs and long backs.
We have some great corgis in agility in our dog club, but they do have to be managed very carefully, just as any other dog, adding special care because of their short legs and long backs.
You really can’t say those deformities are harmless.

I am a veterinarian. I compete with my corgis in agility and know countless others. They’re overall very sturdy and sound little dogs. I do a lot of performance dog work. I stand by what I say, corgis are often sounder long term than many of their counterparts with more traditional conformation.

Yes, the bassetts I see are often a disaster, but they’re often overweight and toe out a lot.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;5877707]
I am a veterinarian. I compete with my corgis in agility and know countless others. They’re overall very sturdy and sound little dogs. I do a lot of performance dog work. I stand by what I say, corgis are often sounder long term than many of their counterparts with more traditional conformation.

Yes, the bassetts I see are often a disaster, but they’re often overweight and toe out a lot.[/QUOTE]

Even if you are a veterinarian, you ought to admit that, when discussing a breed’s characteristics and problems some of those cause, we can’t really excuse one breed’s problems by saying “it is less bad than other breeds”?
That is irrelevant to the breed and it’s problems in discussion here.