You described corgis as deformed and unsound. Yes, they’re dwarf in stature. But, to describe them as unsound isn’t accurate. The only one I’ve ever know to have a back issue is cobby with a short-back. And while doxies are the poster child for back issues, I see it frequently in other small dogs (Shih Tzus a lot).
I was in England recently and absolutely loved the look of all their dogs that do not have cropped ears or docked tails. I’ve had 6 poodles in my life and the youngest is the only one with a natural tail. I loff it!! I think the next poodle I get will also have a natural tail, even if I need to reserve the puppy in utero and have breeder not dock it. Or import it from most civilized countries. 
I find the argument of docking tails to avoid sweeping coffee tables and “bleeding tails” ridiculous. Should we dock GS and labs tails for the same reason? I had a lab that could knock things off tables or whack your legs hard with her wagging tail! Have you seen how thin Irish Water Spaniel tails are? Never heard of them having bleeding tails!
Fierce look of cropped ears to scare off people? Do you know anyone who doesn’t take a growling rottie seriously just because it has flopped ears?
Mutilating dogs for breed appearance is just a human developed aesthetic taste. Honestly, we should do better by them.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;5877996]
You described corgis as deformed and unsound. Yes, they’re dwarf in stature. But, to describe them as unsound isn’t accurate. The only one I’ve ever know to have a back issue is cobby with a short-back. And while doxies are the poster child for back issues, I see it frequently in other small dogs (Shih Tzus a lot).[/QUOTE]
They are genetically dwarfs, not just in stature.
They are sturdy dogs, that is true.
I find very surprising that as a vet, if you are a small animal vet, you have only come across one corgi with back issues, lucky you.
As someone involved for decades in the dog world, I have seen plenty of corgis with back problems and I am not their vet or owners.
Also saw other breeds with similar conformation and everyone that had them or bred them were aware of the problems that conformation tends to produce.
One corgi breeder was a very good friend, so I got to see many corgis.
A member of our dog club breeds cardigans.
I think it is fine to have them, breed them, they are wonderful dogs, the cutest puppies of any.
That is why many like them, but that doesn’t mean their conformation doesn’t make them more susceptible to back problems than other types.
Why deny something that is clearly there?
I have Pem Corgis…and have not had back problems either. As Marshfield will probably be able to tell you, any dog can have a back issue, depending on what the issue is. I’ve known of Danes blow a disc, just getting on or off a couch. I don’t have a vast number of dogs, but out of 7 (not including fosters), if it were common I think I’d have had one. Sometimes it’s not the way a dog is built, but how they twist getting on or off something.
but back to the issue of cropping/docking, I like the look of a bunny butt on my Corgi. I’ve seen photos of the tails on undocked Pems and they were somewhat Spitz looking, curling up over their back.
I also have an ACD, and part of the reason I chose that breed was no cropping/docking including dews.
[QUOTE=clm08;5878011]
I was in England recently and absolutely loved the look of all their dogs that do not have cropped ears or docked tails. I’ve had 6 poodles in my life and the youngest is the only one with a natural tail. I loff it!! I think the next poodle I get will also have a natural tail, even if I need to reserve the puppy in utero and have breeder not dock it. Or import it from most civilized countries.
I find the argument of docking tails to avoid sweeping coffee tables and “bleeding tails” ridiculous. Should we dock GS and labs tails for the same reason? I had a lab that could knock things off tables or whack your legs hard with her wagging tail! Have you seen how thin Irish Water Spaniel tails are? Never heard of them having bleeding tails!
Fierce look of cropped ears to scare off people? Do you know anyone who doesn’t take a growling rottie seriously just because it has flopped ears?
Mutilating dogs for breed appearance is just a human developed aesthetic taste. Honestly, we should do better by them.[/QUOTE]
While I, too prefer dogs be left natural, there are plenty of dogs who do actually suffer serious injuries to their tails from beating them against things while wagging. It’s called Happy Tail Syndrome, and it’s a real problem for whippy-tailed dogs. In some dogs (including lots of labs!) it can be so severe and painful that the dog ends up needing the tail amputated due to nerve damage or to the fact that it simply won’t heal as the dog keeps right on wagging.
I have had nothing but Dobes since 1979 and have two full brothers now, a red and a black, nine yrs old. I have had both natural and cropped ears, tails always done.
For yrs I raised litters and always cropped ears. It was a lot of work to keep them taped but I did not mind it. I NEVER seen a pup not want to play with its litter because its ears hurt. I would never want one with a tail, I have small kids around a lot and I don’t want them injured by it, and I have seen that happen. I have had the hematoma issue but it was due to a persistant yeast problem which caused much head shaking and thus the hematoma.
I think it should be left up to the individual whether they crop or not. Both mine here now have their ears and I love them. that said I am sure I will own another with cropped ears, like next spring most likely. I miss my girl way too much and have spoken with her breeder about another.
I used to have blues and fawns but really prefer the blacks. I used to do all my own tails for over 20 yrs. Done correctly and shortly after birth it is very simple and all I ever got out of the pup was one quick wimper. I always use the V cut and suture. Have never had one turn out wrong. Cropping ears, I always searched out someone with a whole lot of experience even if I had to travel out of state to do it with ten pups. You surely never want to get a bad crop, you’re stuck with it.
I so enjoyed raising the pups and watching them go on to their show careers. Health won’t allow that anymore and I will be just thrilled to take on another personal for me, girl. I miss my helper dog so much especially as my health worsens. Now just to come up with $3000 for her purchase and I can again start teaching her to be my helper. I have never had a breed of dog learn so quickly, amazing how quickly they pick up the words for the different objects that I need brought to me and whatnot.
If you want to show a natural dog then get the breed standard changed. I’m into Dobes and Rotts, both breed standards say docked tails. American judges follow the breed standards. There are people trying to get that changed, due to the imported dogs and showing or just not wanting to alter the dogs anymore. I personally like docked breeds and would always want a docked tail. I do like the natural ears on a Dobe. But I do not show, my friends who show do dock and crop their Dobes and the show Rotts are docked. Again, it boils down to breed standards and work to get it changed if you are showing and don’t like the altered dogs.
Again, it boils down to breed standards and work to get it changed if you are showing and don’t like the altered dogs.
actually it “boils down” to the law- many countries have decided that cosmetic surgery is inhumane and have simply banned it. The breed standards then become rather irrelevant, as do “personal preferences” as to whether you want to subject your puppy to unnecessary surgery or not. Not like you can easily hide the fact you had your puppies ears sliced off, and it might become rather hard to find a skilled vet willing to risk their license just to perform unnecessary surgery on your pup.
Eventually the US will catch up in humanitarian terms and also ban cosmetic surgery. If the breeders/ breed organizations plan ahead they can start breeding now for acceptable natural ears and tails. It’s only a matter of time.
I really hope that all the people against docking and cropping are equally against de-clawing. Atleast in ear docking the animal doesn’t have to stand on the altered part. Are you also agaist dewclaw removal?
I personally am fine with tail docking and as long as the owner takes care of the cropped ears I am fine with that, the long thin ears look freaky and I perfer the shorter wider look but hey.
yes ear cropping can cause discomfort but so can spaying and neutering, is this also cruel and inhumane, none are a necessary sx, just a common one.
How could you not love Dobermans after “The Doberman Gang?” lol
Also, I know several breeders here in the States that produce dogs that are traditionally-known to be cropped and docked will offer natural puppies to buyers from overseas to be shown in EU shows.
I’m so sick and tired of this argument. Anyone who says this obviously has never owned a cropped dog!
First of all, newly cropped puppies DO NOT (or should not!) go to their new owners. After being cropped and the ears are fully healed is when they go and at that point the ears can be taped. The ears are healed!
Secondly-I saw the puppies from my dog’s litter rough-housing and playing HARD with their newly cropped ears…a far cry from not participating because their ears hurt…FAR CRY!!!
Thirdly-I completely disagree that they go through months of horrible taping. I’d like you to come watch my guy get taped…he SLEEPS through it. Far from being horrible if you ask me.
I’m on my 4th Dobe…all have been cropped & docked; if I couldn’t have one that way I probably wouldn’t have one period. NONE of them suffered with ear taping or were scarred for life because their ears hurt while playing. NONE!
PLEASE…that is the biggest bunch of crappola I’ve ever heard!
Side question: What is the purpose of removing the dewclaw?
And the only dog I’ve had with a back problem was our old beagle/Aussie mix who blew a disc. The beagle/basset mix and corgi are fine. (I worry more about Puff, the aussie/collie/god knows what, because he is long and thin and tends to fling himself around with very little regard for what’s around him, including me.)
He actually has a natural ‘dock’ tail (a little stump). Between him and the Corgi (docked Pem), Sundae, my kitten, who’s only ever lived indoors with me from about six months of age, and was a dumpee before that, was mentally blown away by my parents’ beagle/basset–I couldnt’ figure out her issue until I realized in her world, DOGS DO NOT HAVE TAILS OMG.
So they don’t rip off when the dog plays or works. Dew claws are often only loosely attached to the limb and cause quite a bit of pain when they tear, and bleed like crazy.
We removed dew claws on my first dog when she was spayed, as they were not removed when she was wee, and it was pretty horrible for her. It is FAR better to take them off when puppies are only 2-3 days old…they cry for a minute and then they are back to eating off mom…
some dogs have very badly attached dew claws that can easily be ripped off so its not uncommon for breeders to have them removed at a few days of age to prevent that from happening at a later date.
usually occurs in high energy breeds as in theory they are more likely to rip them off.
I use to work in the kennel of a vet office and was surprised at how loose some of the dew claws were attached, it would have taken very little to rip some off.
When I do front dew claws on my Jack Russell puppies, I use hemostats and it’s a quick easy procedure usually with little bleeding. It’s rare that a Jack will have rear dew claws, but I had it happen once. That one was so loosely attached I just pinched it off with my fingernails and there was no bleeding whatsoever.
I also use hemostats on the tails. Apply, wait ten seconds, twist off, remove hemostats put back on mom. Usually I don’t even need to apply styptic powder. No stress of a car ride, no exposure to vet office germs. No crying.
If “they” want to try and ban cosmetic surgery, I will be right there fighting it. Terriers have their tails and dewclaws done for a reason. I don’t see why cosmetic surgery can’t be left to the owner and the vets that may choose to do the surgery or not.
For those who think it’s cruel and inhumane, well, you’re free to have your dogs natural and deal with any consequences of hematomas, broken tails, torn dew claws. You don’t own my dogs, and I don’t own yours. We can each follow our own preferences.
I’d be really curious to see that done! I’ve only seen Brittanys docked, and that was with scissors and closed with one suture. It was not at all traumatic and puppies cried for a minute or two. Thinking back to how big their tails were at 2-3 days, I can’t see hemostats working for them, but I bet your puppies are much teenier! 
My friend’s Malinois has ripped off his dew claw playing twice now (he is almost 2). Once the claw, which was then “hanging by a thread” and once just the casing, so the quick bled every time it was bumped (i.e. all the time with an active dog). Horrid.
My (much less active) rescue still has his dew claws, but they are more difficult to trim due to the angle.
I am all about removing dew claws.
I also like dobes with docked tails. They really do injure themselves wagging their tail sometimes. When done to very young pups it is an easy surgery. Or you can just band them (I don’t like how the end looks then though).
I don’t care either way about the ears. Yes, I personally think it looks better cropped, but to each their own. Nothing looks worse than a bad crop that wasn’t maintained. Also, a breeder should keep the pups until the sutures are out/healed, and I’ve never heard of them not playing/socializing because their ears hurt.
Finally, I don’t declaw my cats, and agree that if you are against all this other stuff then you really should be against cat declawing. Good luck getting people to go for that one though.
My co-worker had a Corgi and he did something to his back and loss the use of his back legs. Her vet said that was common. Very sad!!
[QUOTE=Kryswyn;5878825
You don’t own my dogs, and I don’t own yours. We can each follow our own preferences.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. And this is why we live in the USA!
[QUOTE=RHdobes563;5877670]
However, I don’t care for the overly long crop occasionally seen in the ring. You know, the ears that fall over at the end or flop around when the dogs are gaited. My cropped male had more bell, I think the term is, and I rather prefer the length of ears I’ve seen of dogs in the early to mid-20th century. Oh, and my red dog never experience any “pain” with his cropped ears.
:[/QUOTE]
A good bell should still not flop or tip.
Here is what I consider a show-ring bell type crop (pardon the portly look…boyfriend refused to stop giving him cookies…got rid of the boyfriend :)):
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2400588420103114374XsNcAS
No flop or droop no matter what he was doing. Nice ears done by a vet in Montreal.
Rescue with a bad crop:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2830736240103114374DYeGBu
Handsome boy but just not the same. I prefer the ears done but admit when I got this guy he would try to kill anyone that touched his ears. Have to think it was painful for him at some point but he did get over it.
One of the girls with natural ears:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2817716200103114374RVQQfc
She did have a hematoma that bled horribly. It was awful. We got her as a pup and folded the ears so they would stay that way…they did.
Current rescue who I consider perfect…tail is correct length and shorter but correct ear crop:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2468914460103114374DcwtJj
I don’t have pictures online of all the others but a variety of ears and one tail and I still prefer cropped and docked. All have had dewclaws removed.
My Jagdterrier has her dewclaws and has ripped one off twice now. It leaves a bloody, meaty little stump for a while that hurts her immensely and bleeds everywhere. Would have been kinder to remove them when she was a pup but she is a rescue as well.
To those of you that think it is barbaric to crop and dock I hope if you have male babies you leave their foreskin intact. I fail to see the difference except that is a barbaric act performed on HUMANS! :eek::eek:
O.O Now I’m going to go home and obsessively check their dewclaws…(Well, I know Puff has his. I’ve honestly never looked that closely at Tucker’s little legs, and don’t recall the vet saying one way or another. Normally I just check her pads (they like to find pickerburs no matter where we are.)
