Let's Talk Bullying

Given Robert Dover’s very well done speech on bullying, let’s have a chat; sorry, this is uber long :).

A few definitions/explanations (title was the actual word searched and all material, other than the titles, are exact copies of the material located):

Bullying: Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious and lasting problems. In order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include:

An Imbalance of Power: Kids who bully use their power—such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information, or popularity—to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same people.

Repetition: Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once.
Bullying includes actions such as making threats, spreading rumors, attacking someone physically or verbally, and excluding someone from a group on purpose (www.stopbullying.gov).

Cyberbullying: Cyberbullying is bullying that takes place over digital devices like cell phones, computers, and tablets. Cyberbullying can occur through SMS, Text, and apps, or online in social media, forums, or gaming where people can view, participate in, or share content. Cyberbullying includes sending, posting, or sharing negative, harmful, false, or mean content about someone else. It can include sharing personal or private information about someone else causing embarrassment or humiliation. Some cyberbullying crosses the line into unlawful or criminal behavior (www.stopbullying.gov).

Criticism: the act of criticizing usually unfavorably; seeking encouragement rather than criticism; a critical observation or remark; an unfair criticism had a minor criticism of the design; critique; the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature; also : writings expressing such evaluation or analysis; an anthology of literary criticism; the scientific investigation of literary documents (such as the Bible) in regard to such matters as origin, text, composition, or history (Merriam-Webster)

False Representation: False representation means a false or wrongful representation regarding a material fact with the knowledge or belief of its inaccuracy. False representation depends upon the peculiar circumstances and conditions involved in each case. False representation is the most common foundation for actions in fraud and deceit and for equitable relief on the ground of fraud. Usually, false representations can be made by acts, words, or by any of the ways in which ideas may be communicated from one person to another. In addition, a false representation can be made either by an affirmative statement that is itself false, or by concealing or not disclosing certain facts that render the facts that are disclosed misleading (USLegal).

Any public person, such as persons in government positions regardless of level, are automatically tossed into the court of public opinion and short of openly threatening their safety, any speech is essentially a free for all (form a government law standpoint; private industry/companies may have different policies). At the same time, a professional, whether professional in a company structure or one who makes a claim of being a professional, open themselves up to the same type of public scrutiny especially if they are representing the same company. For example, military members are considered professionals. They put up with media of all types though offices in each branch have specific media reps. Still, if a military member, in uniform, chooses to make a statement somewhere, the simple wearing of the uniform can be considered that the person making the statement is representing the branch and that branch’s thoughts on what is being said…it can’t be done without permission, without knowledge of the command and/or without prior perusal of the statement.

So it comes out, a professional opens themselves up to public scrutiny and criticism of their actions, words etc, it is NOT bullying, or in the case of social media/blogs/forums, cyberbullying, unless false information is shared as in wrong information. A professional caught out in a flat lie where the lie is proven, is not being cyber-bullied when that info is passed on to others, especially if said lie, or lies, or a professional is falsely representing their abilities, can be proven. It is also not considered bullying/cyber-bullying if criticism and debate is done over words the professional has actually put out. Heck, if that were the case, every author out there who has ever been criticized, whether electronically or otherwise, could claim they were being bullied.

Now, on this, bullying of children, teens, new riders absolutely should never be a point of focus. They are not professionals but individuals and private persons; they are not a public figure who have placed themselves in that court of public opinion. Constructive criticism, given in a professional and supportive manner to help their development, mentally, physically and emotionally, is one thing. Calling them out publicly in an effort to shame or harass is something else (this can be done by adults or other kids).

When I got my first horse, I rode with a girl who had a parent that was a bully. I didn’t really recognize it until a couple of years later, but, no matter how well she rode at a show, if she didn’t win the class he would turn his back on her and refuse to talk to her, or, he would lambaste her in a loud voice so anyone around could hear; he never offered an ounce of positive reinforcement in anything.

So, related to professionals, when does criticism of their actions/words become bullying? Can one professional constantly criticize another professional, including when the professional doing the criticism is incorrect in that criticism, only be considered to be offering criticism and is not considered to be a bully? Can lowly people that are considered amateurs be considered bullies if they criticize a professional, especially when that criticism is in fact completely accurate?

As RD stated, there may be times in a pic, vid or otherwise where what is being done, or said, is not correct, and we all understand that and in general will say, oops, moment in time let’s observe before we make up our minds. However, we also have to be true to ourselves and the sport in which we ride. Most of us, I believe, can agree that different trainers often bring different ways for students to see things…one can say one thing one way, while another says the same thing another way, and the one that said it the other way finally clicks on that “oh, THAT’s what he/she meant” button in the rider’s brain. At the same time, if I know, at least in my brain, from listening and observation, that a trainer/professional is not educated in what they are trying to teach, as in they may know the words but not the actual actions, I am not going to train with them and I am going to pass on my perceptions to others making the consideration. I wouldn’t ever tell anyone not to train with someone, but I will give my thoughts before they do. People still have to make up their own minds.

Thanks for the definitions, though not sure what this has to do with dressage. Bullying exits because people do and people can be real a**holes in life. Most people who are hugely successful are on some level, to some degree, a bit of a bully and have an ego. Not excusing it at all…but it exits everywhere there are people.

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I distinguish between bullying and harassment.

Bullying requires a power imbalance and it implies that the victim feels that power imbalance. Bullyimg very ofyen acts through public shsming and intimidation. Harassment can be the same action but without the same power imbalance.

When our barn sociopath who is 60 going on 14 makes deliberate mean comments to a tween and sends them home ashamed and in tears, because she doesn’t like the person that owns their lease horse, that’s bullying.

When barn sociopath makes the same kind of comments to me and I laugh it off because, well, every one knows she’s a sociopath, it isn’t bullying. It’s harassment, though fairly ineffective.

However, the current discourse on bullying behavior seems to require you emphasise your victim status or no one takes you seriously.

Anyhow, as an adult it’s hard to imagine what I might really want to define as bullying in my current life. If I found myself in a lesson or clinic with an abusive coach I would remove myself. If there was conflict at work including sexual harassment we have venues to resolve. If I got into some kind of ideological pileup online that involved my real identity and came to the attention of trolls, I would consider that an attack, harassment, but probably not bullying. If barn sociopath accelerated to physical intimidation, it would be a matter for the police.

So I think bullying is often not the best lens through which to analyze interactions between adults. It is very useful however for discusing children and youth in situations of power imbalance.

Obviously it can be a very real thing in the closed worlds of lessons and competition where coaches have a lot of sway over young people.

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It has to do with the Robert Dover Horsemastership Clinic…there were some issues with sound on the live stream and the dressage hub lady posted video of one RD helping one of the kids through a spooky/misbehaving/behind the leg/whatever ride. She posted it under the guise of “USEF wouldn’t let me video and look what a terrible job they did, the sound wasn’t working.” But of course, her prior behavior would have been enough to disqualify her from videoing even without the USEF’s no outside photography rule for this event. That hissy fit aside, she chose the least flattering clip possible, and the comments on FB were terrible. I think that poor kid (or young adult) probably felt bad enough (even though she could’ve ridden the pants off anyone criticizing her) without all the negative comments. That’s what his comments were about the next day.

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Oh gottcha…I’ll admit some of the long posts lose me. Thanks for clarifying.

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The horsemastership clinic has been wonderful to watch. I have known adult ammies over the years who have worked with RD and the scuttlebutt has been that he is a taskmaster. It’s been so fun to see how supportive and encouraging he is with these riders, and how clearly he articulates the ideal of training a horse that loves and wants to do his job. The road to success can be bumpy and what a privilege to see trainers and clients working out issues that we all face.

I would distinguish between bullying, which is intimidation that has an impact on the target, and whining, which is small and ineffectual and dismissed by everyone that matters.

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Among the horses or the riders? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Yeah I didn’t know the context either.

I am sure a kid who is riding at that level won’t be flattened by some cray cray on line that is targeting the venue not them.

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I’m sorry that you feel that “most successful people” are to some degree “bullies”.

Ego is one thing. A bully (even a bit of one) is something else entirely. Your outlook must depend on your personal experience. I have not had that experience at all. The bullies have always been the odd ones out.

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Yes it’s probably important to distinguish between people who are driven, pushy, even abrasive, and actual bullying or harassing behavior. That said, some fields do appear to enable sexual harassment for Instance. Other fields do not really reward loud and abrasive even in the highly successful. Ime also the bullies I’ve met tend to be more marginal or economically trapped people because professional success requires more sophisticated ways of achieving your goals.

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Taking issue with the initial post’s definition of bullying “real or perceived power imbalance” --the problem for me is the word “perceived” —in Jr. High (50 years ago) I was labeled by the teachers/principal/kids as a bully --I was bigger than the other girls (this did not involve boys) and frequently hit them, pushed, shoved, and threatened to do so. And so I was sent to the principals office, and my parents called, and I was often and frequently disciplined for being a bully. BUT what wasn’t “perceived” is that there was more than one bully. The girls I hit, pushed, shoved, and threatened were the wealthy town girls (in my perception). As a group (and girls generally bully as a peer group selecting an outsider for their victim --ie me) --these girls ridiculed ever so subtly my home, family, sister, and parents --we were farmers --yes we had stinky animals and yes I wore clothes my mom made me that didn’t look like they came from a store (so did my sister). The girls (again as a group) would hold their noses as they passed me in the hall --make piggy sounds, ask the teacher to be moved away from me in the class --and they did it non-stop for all the jr. high school years --somehow in HS I stopped being their victim --turned out I was pretty dang smart and excelled in debate and speech and had a job on a local radio (still in HS) as a news-reader from 4AM to 7AM every hour, on the hour. --but that was in the future.

My point is that with most if not all bullying situations --it’s really difficult to know the dynamic with out extensive investigation. Seeing the “big kid” push “the little kid” may appear clean cut as a case of bullying -but too often as a high school teacher of 41 years (now retired) --there was a lot more going on --the “little kid” may have been inappropriate with the big kid’s little sister on the bus minutes before --or the little kid called the big kid names --or something --never, as in NEVER did I see a situation where there was absolutely no fault on one side. Little kids can be down right mean and cover it with, “he’s bigger than I am, therefore, he’s a bully!” –

As to the sociopath boarder in the dressage barn who “bullies” the teenage rider --again, could be 100% true --but teenagers can be incredibly subtle and cruel and know how to play the victim role. At our hunt club there’s a nasty piece of work --cute as she can be --who never loses an opportunity to point out other’s lacks. Her comment to me was, “Wow, you’ve been hunting for 50 years? What did you ride when you were young, a dinosaur?” --how cute. And her age quips kept coming, along with her unasked for comments about member horses horses and members’ riding. I ignored her as did other members for a long time, then someone (not me) but probably labeled by her parents as a bully (or sociopath) told her flat out to knock it off and I am sure that person was most unkind about it. And Miss Teenage Rider to this day probably feels victimized. She generally keeps her comments to herself these days, and I try to “feed her need” for attention and tell her often how nicely turned out she is, and how well she rides. Maybe she just grew up.

So my long-winded point is, bullying is a complicated social dynamic.

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It is indeed complicated especially by the fact we bring up girls to value social acceptance above all else, and to be socially anxious and socially competitive on multiple levels.

They know instinctively how to attack other girls emotionally and the targets are usually primed to be vulnerable to that attack.

I think it makes it harder for teenage girls to focus on a sport or hobby or school because they are always worrying about what other people think about them. You can’t run s marathon if you are worried your shorts are the wrong color.

That said in our case the barn sociopath really is an acknowledged problem but it’s also true that if you are okay with not being 100 % loved by everyone she loses most of her power. She ends up eventually fighting with her “friends” too. She’s special.

Chiming in to add, and you probably already know and meant this, it’s not just teens, but bullies of all ages in general, who know how to manipulate the situation to make themselves appear to be the victim. The moment someone stands up for themselves or makes it so the bully doesn’t get their way, all swords are pointed at the throat of the bully’s intended target.

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Rockfish --I’m confused --“The moment someone stands up for themselves or makes it so the bully doesn’t get their way, all swords are pointed a the throat of the bully’s intended target” --am I reading this as when a victim calls out a bully --everyone finds fault with the victim? --if this is in response to the quote you put from my post, then I failed to write clearly --apologies --my point was not that the victim of a bully is wrong or should be accused of wrong doing, but only that in my PERSONAL experience, there was never a case where (in the school where I worked and the students I dealt with) a bullying situation where everyone was blame free. And I said that my experience was limited to only what I observed in my lifetime --but that what at first appears to be the victim, could well be the bully and before we apply that term to anyone, we need to consider the actions of both.

Is it bullying to walk by a girl (whose family has a pig farm) in a hallway and hold your nose? When does that become bullying? When you do it once? Get all your friends to do it? Do it every day? And when that same girl finally body-slams you into a wall --after all YOU never SAID anything or threatened said girl --is SHE the bully now? How about if she keeps doing it every time you walk by even if you and your friends don’t hold your noses but just look at her and give a little sniff?

One person wrote (probably on COTH) that “We are all the heroes of our own Disney Movie.” --Where I saw myself (In my own Disney movie) as the lovely, aged fox hunter on her equally aged hunt horse RUDELY attacked by the vicious teenager’s comments on my age and the age of my horse (think Nelly Olsen on Little House on the Prairie) --the teenager herself probably had her own Disney movie in her head where I was the evil old curmudgeon crossly reminding the beautiful young rider of her “place” on the hunt field through my askance looks and rolled eyes, and head tilt – -- was I the bully? was she? Difficult to decide. Ultimately, I decided to be kinder and completely defused her attacks --but I’ve had 40 years to learn how to do that --if I’d known what I know now about teenagers and psychology, I could have made those “pig-girl haters” into my friends in a day–heck, an hour! But all I knew in Jr High was “they didn’t like me.” and that was devastatingly painful to a 13 year old.

And just cuz we like a happy ending (for me anyway) --I saw a few of those girls (not the ring-leader) but some of her pals at a 45 year class reunion a couple of years ago. I spoke to each of them (they vaguely remembered me -if at all), but I told each how she had “inspired me” to become a psychology teacher --and that I often used what experiences we shared in junior high when teaching my classes –

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I agree. It can be that the victim could strike back and be labeled the bully…I can’t argue that and in truth can’t disagree with the action if the victim is truly a victim. However, an investigation needs to be completed to determine the circumstances. It could be the victim only perceives bullying taking place when no bullying was actually done.

When the alleged victim perceives simple actions or words as being bullied they are not a victim of bullying. Saying, “they were a bully and made me drop my books” when it was a case of the alleged bully tripping and knocking the books by accident, that is not correct. May be a chancy definition but I know someone who made that actual complaint.

The person accused ended up with a phone call home complant to the parents, and a meeting with all present to straighten everything out. The one that made the accusation wasn’t reprimanded or told to apologize but tearfully complained about being made out to be in the wrong for reporting the incident.

Fortunately the parents believed the alleged bully when they were confronted by their parents. A one time incident but the “victim” was known to report every sideways glance or anything where they didn’t feel 10000000% happy with an action or word.

Not everyone finds fault with the victim, I should say, but that bullies are VERY good at manipulation and redirection. When their target finally has enough and decides to do something about it, bullies are the first to burst into tears like they did nothing wrong and hide behind an authority figure.

An example from my childhood: I’m not a girly girl by any stretch of the word, so I played with the boys on the elementary school play ground. One boy would push other kids around, physically, when he didn’t get his way during recess. One day he tried to choke me out, because I wouldn’t let him cut in line, or didn’t want him to climb up the slide I was trying to slide down…literal school yard crap like that. I screamed at him and told him “leave me alone you butt-licker”. I got punished for my language by the principle, even after explaining, because he was “a good student and his mom was on the PTA and he’d neeeeever do anything like I’d described! I was a terrible child for speaking to him like that!” Like you, it turned out a happy ending. He’s a police officer in my county, and a very good and humble one. When we see each other we hug or shake hands and chat a bit.

Like TWH Girl posted “Bullying exits (*exists) because people do and people can be real a**holes in life.” It’s about nipping it in the bud, kudos to RD, before damage control needs to be done.

Classic manipulation and redirection.

I wonder if TWH might be referring to folks like - for example, to name a big one - George Morris?

We all know a highly successful professional or two that are about as gentle as a Brillo pad when it comes to how they interface with clients and students. GM is well-known for being extremely critical of riders, but it’s tolerated in showjumping because he is who he is. There are a million examples of things he’s said to riders that I’d consider bullying to some degree. They served no purpose other than to highlight a rider’s apparent incompetence, were denigrating and embarrassing, there is certainly a power differential there in the form of skill, experience and the coach-student relationship…they aren’t kids, but truly, do we really think that bullying is limited to children?

I’m not sure I know the answer one way or another, but just providing one example. My experience tends to be that increases in power lead to decreases in compassion for the people you now have power over, and a decrease in compassion can lead to abusive remarks or treatment. While that’s most often applied to politics, it certainly could be applied to student-teacher relationships.

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GM is extremely critical, but is he like that outside of teaching or comparing riders like he does/did in that equitation comparison article he had? (name slips my mind at the moment). Is he critical with a sneer or is he just picky?

Part of the definition of bullying is that it is ongoing. Also that the victim sees it as bullying. If you take a clinic with GM and he makes a joke at your expense once or twice that’s not bullying. It might be hurtful or rude but it’s not bullying. Besides if you sign up for that at this point you probably know what you are getting.

And I’m not sure energetic commentary in a sports situation by a coach is generally considered bullying. Think about what football coaches say to their teams. It’s not my preferred way of learning to put it mildly :slight_smile: but I think a coach who yells at his whole team to get them to perform better isnt really a bully. Whereas a coach that singled out one player for personal humiliation repeatedly especially off the field would be a bully. Or if they were coercing sex out of a team member.

If you apply the criteria of whether a behavior constitutes ongoing unwelcome one sided harassment then you exclude both the loud and noisy coach, and the ongoing interpersonal disputes between peers.