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Let's talk PONY stallions!

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

I will be acquiring one of my homebred Akhal Teke mares back soon. She is actually 75% Teke & 25% TB. I’m thinking I’d like to cross her with a GRP or other type of sportpony. Tekes tend to move more “huntery” than dressagey, so probably best to stay with those types, although I am open.

In otherwords, a stallion who consistently improves/produces dressage-type gaits would certainly be considered.

She is about 15.1hh, longer back (in keeping w/her breed) adequate bone (although I don’t think a horse can have too much bone) and a sweet-heart disposition.

She could use some more “engine” IMHO and a pretty head never hurt.

Like all Tekes, she can jump,and her TB granddam produced a heck of a H/J by Ideal, but Tekes tend to jump like deer, so hunter stallions need to be tight in the front w/good bascule OR I might even consider an eventing pony…although I’m really not sure there is a market for those…

I am looking for a pony stallion who will shorten the back, keep/add bone, IMPROVE feet (she got the TB feet) and obviously produce a shorter foal. I do NOT want to risk getting a “hony”. BTW, the only height in her pedigree is her TB granddam, who was 16. Her sire did NOT tend to produce height.

Here are some pics taken this last summer:

[Album] Kadima RHR

Although I love 'em, best keep away from buckskins or palies, as I don’t want to risk a DD. Not a big fan of grey, but would consider a heterozygous grey.

Prefer chilled, but will take a risk on good, proven frozen. Registry unimportant, but MUST either have been approved here in America via Testing, advanced performance or approved overseas in testing.

Haven’t really ever shopped “ponies” so I’m looking forward to this!

#2

What is your intention with the resulting foal?

#3

This thread is 3 years old but will give you a good starting point.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?293625-Top-Pony-Hunter-Stallions

You mentioned GRP; if you want to be sure of size, you might want to look at smaller welsh stallions. the European pony concept is to end up w/ a large pony and that might be cutting things to close.

As example - http://www.germanridingpony.com/burberry.html This guy @ 14 hands is described as the smallest GRP stallion in US. But look at his jump!

#4

If the OP wants a foal that will remain under 14.2 HH, I personally would not gamble with breeding a 15.1 HH mare to anything over 13 HH. Especially no crossbreds, as then you are just gambling with more height. A purebred Welsh stallion is usually ideal for producing great feet, a gorgeous head and great toplines/neck set. Obviously, that depends on the individual stallion. Though, with the OPs requirements of the stallion having gone through Stallion Testing, advanced performance, etc., that pretty much rules out any smaller Welsh stallions. :wink:

A lot depends on what the OP wants to do with the foal. I don’t think a pony hunter is going to be possible out of an Akhal-Teke, due to their build, etc. but it might be possible to end up with a nice event pony. If size isn’t a factor, then you could definitely look at breeding to a German Riding Pony like Burberry or Belafonte d’Avalon, who are both in the U.S.

#5

Agree with Daventry. If the OP is willing to look at smaller purebred Welsh who have been through approvals with specific sport horse registries then that would open up the possibilities a bit more and increase the chances of at least hitting the phenotypic goals being sought.

#6

[QUOTE=Daventry;7395024]
If the OP wants a foal that will remain under 14.2 HH, I personally would not gamble with breeding a 15.1 HH mare to anything over 13 HH. Especially no crossbreds, as then you are just gambling with more height. A purebred Welsh stallion is usually ideal for producing great feet, a gorgeous head and great toplines/neck set. Obviously, that depends on the individual stallion. Though, with the OPs requirements of the stallion having gone through Stallion Testing, advanced performance, etc., that pretty much rules out any smaller Welsh stallions. :wink:

A lot depends on what the OP wants to do with the foal. I don’t think a pony hunter is going to be possible out of an Akhal-Teke, due to their build, etc. but it might be possible to end up with a nice event pony. If size isn’t a factor, then you could definitely look at breeding to a German Riding Pony like Burberry or Belafonte d’Avalon, who are both in the U.S.[/QUOTE]

This mare is a lovely (ammie) dressage & jumping mount for her owners; they adore her.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99704127@N03/sets/72157636327080953/

She is actually sired by the same Teke as the mare I mentioned in the OP, but her dam was a 16.3hh Diamont daughter. She has lovely form over jumps.

I don’t breed ponies, so I was wondering about the advice on size, but I always go for the best stallion I can afford. Problem is I don’t know enough about the Welsh world to know how that can be “proven”. I mean conformation ribbons are all well & good, but I need to know the stallion can perform u/s.

I think a Welsh might bring to the table exactly what I’m looking for, but how do you pick a good one? BTW, what would be the registration possibilities for such a cross?

And where would one go to shop Welsh stallions? I just Googled and it seems there are (at least) 2 different registries for Welsh ponies. I do NOT want to get political on this but is there any difference in quality/standars between the two registries? I don’t want to stumble into the AWS version of a Welsh registry.

My goals? The foal would be for the ammie market, since I would guess the Olympic market for ponies is rather small <lol>. So good mind is important, but this mare (AND her dam) both have this, so I can risk alittle sharpness. My belief is that if you breed two animals who both have superior athletic abilities and good brains (plus sound bodies), you will have an animal who can do a good job somewhere…and you can sort that out later.

I’m sure many breeders tried to produce one thing, and came out w/quite another (like Sandro Hit for example or Redwine)…but still had a viable “product.”

#7

Ok…I’m in WAY over my head here.

What is the difference between a “regular” Welsh pony and a “Welsh Mtn. Pony?”

#8

The Welsh Pony & Cob Society of Canada and the Welsh Pony & Cob Society of America realistically have the same goals and stud book rules. One is just simply for Canadian breeders and the other for American breeders. Though, members and ponies can interchange between the two. There is absolutely no controversy between the two or problems like with the ISR/Oldenburg and OHBS-GOV. One is simply a registry in Canada and the other in the U.S.

There are four sections of Welsh Ponies within the registries. The Section A Welsh Mountain Pony is the founding section. Ponies cannot exceed 12.2 HH. They tend to be a bit stockier build than the Section B Welsh Pony, which is the riding type pony. They cannot exceed 14 HH in Canada and cannot exceed 14.2 HH in the States. The Section Welsh Pony of Cob type and Section D Welsh Cobs are our Cob ponies. Section C’s must be under 13.2 HH and the Section D’s are 13.2 HH & over. The last section is our Half Welsh book. As long as one parent is a purebred Welsh, the resulting foal is eligible for Half Welsh papers. So, crossing your Akhal-Teke with a purebred Welsh stallion woud make the foal eligible for Half Welsh papers…as long as the stallion is a registered purebred Welsh. The American registry now also has a Partbred Welsh registry, which is for foals out of Half Welsh parents.

Our pony stallion Penrhyn Sporting Chance is an example of a Section A Welsh Mountain Pony, our stallions Alvesta Picasso and Daventry’s Power Play are Section B Riding Ponies and Goldhills Brandysnap is a Section D Welsh Cob stallion.

A good place to start would be the Stallion Listings on the WPCSA website at www.welshpony.org Another good place to look is the stallion listings on the ISR/Oldenburg and RPSI websites. The OHBS-GOV website also has pony stallions listed, but their website and stallion book is a headache to find and mingle through!

#9

Too add to Daventry’s post:

I think most will tell you not to exceed 13 hands in height with a Welsh purebred. You might be able to go taller with a section B who has proven over and over again to keep size down but your mare’s background height will also have to be taken into consideration.

You probably want to stay away from section Cs and Ds (my favorite sections BTW) simply because they are less likely to suit most tastes in either the hunter or modern dressage world. Cs could give you the height you’re looking for but again, I wouldn’t advise going that route and neither are the others on this board (not sure, just guessing).

There are some of the smaller Section Bs and some Section A’s that have been approved with Weser em and other sport pony registries which may give you a better indication and evaluation of how they measure up for your purpose. If it’s hunter breeding you want to pursue then you have a whole host of information from those on this board and actually USEF (as bad as it is) in regards to who produces reliably for the hunter market.

I’ve actually had some experience with Akhal Teke’s a long time ago. One of the nicest crosses I’ve ever seen and had the pleasure of riding was an oops breeding. It was by an Akhal Teke stallion out of a grade Shetland pony type. That little stinker went to fourth level and beat out a lot of other riders on more conventional mounts. He also was a jumping machine. Now the owners of all three weren’t exactly wanting to advertise their clandestine oversight so his breeding wasn’t something every one knew but there were many of us who worked at that farm that felt that pony was one of the best products that came out of it.

#10

You say the resulting foal will be for the “ammie” market. Are you breeding for pony hunters? Dressage? Cross Country? What, specifically? It will make a huge difference in your selection of stallions. And since she’s a crossbred, definitely only consider a purebred stallion.
You also mention that she is “about 15.1”. You need an exact measurement to get started. Just because her sire hasn’t passed on any height (so far) doesn’t mean she won’t, so remember that when selecting the stallion.

#11

[QUOTE=exvet;7395496]
I’ve actually had some experience with Akhal Teke’s a long time ago. One of the nicest crosses I’ve ever seen and had the pleasure of riding was an oops breeding. It was by an Akhal Teke stallion out of a grade Shetland pony type. That little stinker went to fourth level and beat out a lot of other riders on more conventional mounts. He also was a jumping machine. Now the owners of all three weren’t exactly wanting to advertise their clandestine oversight so his breeding wasn’t something every one knew but there were many of us who worked at that farm that felt that pony was one of the best products that came out of it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think that might be the OPs biggest problem…finding a pony stallion owner willing to cross with an Akhal-Teke mare. They are such a specific type and breed, that I don’t see them crossing well with all of the various breeds out there…but can definitely envision good crosses with certain breeds. As a Stallion Owner, my worry would be in trying to help the Mare Owner produce a competitive sport pony, dressage pony, what have you, and gamble that the mare doesn’t throw the typical Akhal-Teke inverted neck and long back. Unfortunately, people are always quick to blame a stallion for faults in a foal…without knowing what the mare brought to the picture. As a result, if it were me, I would want to find a stallion who is very good at stamping their foals with a great neck and neck set and strong, short back.

#12

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;7395512]
You say the resulting foal will be for the “ammie” market. Are you breeding for pony hunters? Dressage? Cross Country? What, specifically? It will make a huge difference in your selection of stallions. And since she’s a crossbred, definitely only consider a purebred stallion.
You also mention that she is “about 15.1”. You need an exact measurement to get started. Just because her sire hasn’t passed on any height (so far) doesn’t mean she won’t, so remember that when selecting the stallion.[/QUOTE]

I respectfully must disagree with you regarding a “specific” breeding goal. Tekes, like Arabs, are considered “all-rounders”. Tekes currently are most seen in the endurance & eventing world, however back in the '50’s-60’s PB Tekes won puissance competitions and, of course the most famous Teke, Absent won Gold & Silver at THREE different Olympics under 2 different riders in dressage. (Factoid: until Rembrant came along, Absent held the record for most Olympic medals won. They are now tied).

Kind of like breeding a brilliant mathematician to a brilliant writer, or a top hockey player to a top ballerina, I personally believe that the result will be a sound, good-minded, well-constructed animal who can perform…exactly WHERE they are best suited will be something I can decide when it hits the ground. Considering both Welsh & Tekes are considered “all-rounders” it may very well be the same…and for a pony, I don’t think there would be anything wrong with that.

As far as the mare’s exact height…I sold her when she was 9 mos old and I haven’t seen her since, so I don’t really know.

I DO know that very few of the sire’s get were tall…even bred to very tall mares. Kinor (the stallion) is dead now, and there are only 1-2 of his babies that got over 15.1.

HOWEVER: I already have a breeding to Belefonte (who I love) and was going to use him on my Arab/WB mare (also BARELY 15hh).

Now I’m thinking maybe I’ll use Belefonte on the Teke cross and use a very small Welsh on the Arab/WB.

The Harry/Teke cross MIGHT break 15hh, but would most likely produce an eventing MACHINE…perfect for the ammie eventing market.

Here is the pedigree of the Arab/WB cross:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/whytewytch (and BTW, her dam has yet another cross to Bask+++ in the 4th G)
and her photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99704127@N03/sets/72157635986654614/

While there is some height from the WB side, obviously, her dam has been owned by me for some 17 yrs. and produced several foals. She NEVER produced height…Angel is her tallest foal and, while I haven’t sticked her in ages, I doubt she breaks 15hh. In addition, her granddam (on the Arab side) was TINY…like 13.3hh!

She is eligible for MMB in GOV, OldNA and RPSI + she’s bay, so that would open the door for using a single dilute stallion if I find one I like.

She is TOTALLY correct…excellent legs, SUPER feet, very correct. Powerful gaits…only free-jumped her once, but she did fine. I would want to refine her or at least not get any bulkier (she is quite the chunk).

Obviously I would have to stay with the (much) smaller stallions for her, but I think with the right stallion I could produce a VERY fancy pony. If it was a filly…hey…I’d breed HER to a GRP.

#13

This is a small (12.3 hands) RPSI-approved stallion I have on my ‘list’ … proven record for producing top foals. http://www.solomonfarm.com/stallions/smoketree.html

#14

[QUOTE=Daventry;7395526]
Yes, I think that might be the OPs biggest problem…finding a pony stallion owner willing to cross with an Akhal-Teke mare. They are such a specific type and breed, that I don’t see them crossing well with all of the various breeds out there…but can definitely envision good crosses with certain breeds. As a Stallion Owner, my worry would be in trying to help the Mare Owner produce a competitive sport pony, dressage pony, what have you, and gamble that the mare doesn’t throw the typical Akhal-Teke inverted neck and long back. Unfortunately, people are always quick to blame a stallion for faults in a foal…without knowing what the mare brought to the picture. As a result, if it were me, I would want to find a stallion who is very good at stamping their foals with a great neck and neck set and strong, short back.[/QUOTE]

Obvious the “short back” is not a Teke characteristic, but if you do your research (per the TB Heritage site), back (WAAAY back) when TBs ran courses of 4 miles & more, a long back was considered desirable. Even today, when I read about conformation desired by jumpers & eventers (and even dressage), most would prefer a “slightly” longer back to a too-short back.

Here is a video (very old) of Kadima’s sire, Kinor. Yes, he had a long back…but tell me this guy wasn’t super athletic in the way he used his body…he had no problems getting his hind end underneath himself. (BTW, because I didn’t know much about YT back then, the video actually ends at about 3:00…the rest is just dark).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euh2RLP-NDE

So many people don’t realize that, even though many Tekes don’t meet the standard Western criteria for “perfect” conformation, they use their bodies in such a unique way, they can be AMAZING athletes.

This is WAY OT, but I think I need to share this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgtMJ240qNk

This video piece (long) was compiled by probably THE top Teke breeder in the world…a Russian named Leonid Babaev. He “studied” under a man “Shamborant” who was considered probably the best breeder of Tekes in the past generation. Granted, these are some of the top Tekes out there (and all of the old B&W footage is of Absent), but no one can say these aren’t lovely, athletic horses who can perform.

I would hope ANY stallion owner would judge a mare on their own merits rather than their breed…and so far, every ad I’ve clicked on says “all breeds welcome.”

Now…back to the topic at hand…

If I were to use Belefonte on Kadima (the Teke cross) and a Welsh stallion on my Arab/WB girl (Angel)…any recommendations?

#15

[QUOTE=exvet;7395496]

I’ve actually had some experience with Akhal Teke’s a long time ago. One of the nicest crosses I’ve ever seen and had the pleasure of riding was an oops breeding. It was by an Akhal Teke stallion out of a grade Shetland pony type. That little stinker went to fourth level and beat out a lot of other riders on more conventional mounts. He also was a jumping machine. Now the owners of all three weren’t exactly wanting to advertise their clandestine oversight so his breeding wasn’t something every one knew but there were many of us who worked at that farm that felt that pony was one of the best products that came out of it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this story. So many people have mistaken ideas about Tekes, because just like many breeds, there is a current “trend” by many breeders to produce tons of “typle” (ala halter) vs athletic ability. THAT choice has ruined many a breed…it isn’t unique to Tekes.

BTW, it has been well confirmed by historians that the predecessor to the Akhal -Teke (the Turcoman horse) most definitely contributed to the creation of the English TB (when you see “Turk”, it was most likely a Turcoman stallion), therefore the creation of just about every light riding horse breed in the world…there is even fairly convincing evidence they help create the ARAB breed, especially the Muniqui (can’t spell it) strain.

They haven’t been around this long for nothing…their blood was highly valued then…it should still be valued. The (good) ones still have alot to contribute (IMHO).

#16

There are way too many “all rounder” ponies on the ground today. I share their photos weekly from Camelot Auctions via Camelot Horse Weekly on Facebook. There are literally tons of POAs, Quarter Ponies, Welsh and Welsh crosses and Arabs and grades of all of them, who are NOT living a life of luxury or even care for all sorts of reasons. Most of them would be suitable for giving lessons, trail riding, local shows, Pony Club and 4-H in other words, all-rounders. You want to breed a foal that would be Teke, TB, and Welsh. In other words, a mutt. For the life of me I can’t imagine why.

I’m not anti-breeder. I am anti-breeding just another creature because you think it ‘might’ or ‘should’ or ‘will’ be wonderfully conformed and with a suitable temperament.

So I ask as did someone else, what are your goals for this pony? Ammie? Do you mean child, because there are only a handful of adults competing on ponies in any discipline. If you are hoping to sell to an adult … well you’ve got a really small market. (Theodore O’Conner was a notable exception bred by a COTHer). A dressage pony? Also, not a huge market and someone else who specializes in it can probably breed one better. Then there’s the whole height thing. If the offspring is 12.3 or 13.3 even 14 hands you’ve lost the pony hunter market.

You want something that can shorten your mare’s back, but what if it doesn’t? Now you have something maybe 13.3 hands with a back that runs into the next stall.

I guess my real question should be, why don’t you want to breed her to another Teke or TB, even a half TB sport horse sire? Because I can’t see a real upside to breeding her trying to get a pony.

#17

If your looking for a small stallion, I have one who is proving to produce very good Dressage type ponies. You can email me if you want and I can send you a bunch of photos and videos of his offspring :slight_smile: He is probably too small for the Teke, but what I’m noticing again and again is that he is REALLY putting on a lovely compact build, hind end, and temperament. I also have a nice youngster who would probably suite the Teke but he doesn’t meet your color requirements, he also has a LOVELY short back and super hind end.

Anyways, email if you’d like and I’ll pass on what I have. secretambitionstables@gmail.com

#18

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;7395645]
There are way too many “all rounder” ponies on the ground today. I share their photos weekly from Camelot Auctions via Camelot Horse Weekly on Facebook. There are literally tons of POAs, Quarter Ponies, Welsh and Welsh crosses and Arabs and grades of all of them, who are NOT living a life of luxury or even care for all sorts of reasons. Most of them would be suitable for giving lessons, trail riding, local shows, Pony Club and 4-H in other words, all-rounders. You want to breed a foal that would be Teke, TB, and Welsh. In other words, a mutt. For the life of me I can’t imagine why.

I’m not anti-breeder. I am anti-breeding just another creature because you think it ‘might’ or ‘should’ or ‘will’ be wonderfully conformed and with a suitable temperament.

So I ask as did someone else, what are your goals for this pony? Ammie? Do you mean child, because there are only a handful of adults competing on ponies in any discipline. If you are hoping to sell to an adult … well you’ve got a really small market. (Theodore O’Conner was a notable exception bred by a COTHer). A dressage pony? Also, not a huge market and someone else who specializes in it can probably breed one better. Then there’s the whole height thing. If the offspring is 12.3 or 13.3 even 14 hands you’ve lost the pony hunter market.

You want something that can shorten your mare’s back, but what if it doesn’t? Now you have something maybe 13.3 hands with a back that runs into the next stall.

I guess my real question should be, why don’t you want to breed her to another Teke or TB, even a half TB sport horse sire? Because I can’t see a real upside to breeding her trying to get a pony.[/QUOTE]

While I have no doubt you are speaking from real concern, but I just don’t have any interest in defending my positions, my choices or my breeding ideas. Period.

I have a VERY small operation, started with ONE foundation mare some 16 years ago. For the last 3 years my foals have won their inspection (over the foals from some VERY highly decorated imported mares), finished 12th, 3rd and (tied for) 2nd in the entire nation of all fillies inspected.

My homebred mare won the Mare Championship this year under DAD judge Wm. Solyntjes, beating (among others) an older, highly decorated mare.

I just sold one of my coming 3 yr olds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOqb8HNvO7g ) to an accomplish dressage pro to be aimed at the YHC.

I don’t present myself to be Paul S., but I’ve done very well considering my budget, age and the short length of time I’ve been breeding. So sleep well…I won’t produce a monster <g>.

To be VERY clear: I very much appreciate any info on pony stallions Coth’s admire and/or have used…their strengths, their weaknesses, etc.

Not interested in any real debate on why I’m asking.

BTW:
Belefonte: TB/Arab/WB = Mutt
Teddy: TB/Arab/Shetland =Mutt
Original English TB: Turkoman, Arab, Horses-of-Unknown-Breeding, Indigenous Mares = Mutt

It’s not the breed…it’s the qualit(ies) of each individual horse…AND the horses behind them.

#19

[I]BTW, it has been well confirmed by historians that the predecessor to the Akhal -Teke (the Turcoman horse) most definitely contributed to the creation of the English TB (when you see “Turk”, it was most likely a Turcoman stallion), therefore the creation of just about every light riding horse breed in the world…there is even fairly convincing evidence they help create the ARAB breed, especially the Muniqui (can’t spell it) strain.

They haven’t been around this long for nothing…their blood was highly valued then…it should still be valued. The (good) ones still have alot to contribute (IMHO). [/I]

Yes, I have heard of such evidence and am not surprised. The stallion that I referred to was quite handy and did well in eventing. I knew and went to school with one of his riders. She found him to be very straight forward (more like an ammy’s mount) and rather cat-like, able to get out of tight spots the few times that they happened.

I’m quite the Harry fan so I would be very interested in what you produce with the crossing to him, whichever mare you choose to put to him. I also think the WB x Arab x Welsh cross could definitely be a smashing hit. Then I should fully disclose that I use to show Arabs and obviously am smitten with the Welsh breed too. Though I agree that the market for sport pony is smaller and I use to be one in that market (I produce my own now) I am intrigued by the possibilities you pose and agree that the emphasis on the outcome should be the individual. I just think it will be a bit harder to please the hunter scene than the sport scene with what you produce…then again papers are lost all the time on ponies :winkgrin:

#20

Is Blue Rain still being bred (is he still alive)? He’s an amazing pony stallion. I have one of his babies and I am breeding to one of his sons this spring.

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