Kyzteye, I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. You (still) haven’t said what you want the resulting foal to be bred for (as in genre, if you will) but you’re asking for suggestions.
I definitely think that if you go with a pony stallion, it should be purebred.
[QUOTE=Daventry;7397546]
Please DON’T call them mutts. It’s extremely insulting. You also called Belafonte d’Avalon a mutt as well. It makes it hard to breed to a stallion when you’re rude about them online.
You yourself said you don’t know enough about pony bloodlines to comment, so why then go and call them mutts? For what it’s worth, Blue Who is actually 7/8th Welsh 1/8 TB. His dam is a PUREBRED Welsh Pony and the top side is the immortal Blue Rain, but the breeder just didn’t bother to get the colt registered with the WPCSA. Sugarbrook Blue Pacific is 11/16 Welsh, with a tiny bit of TB and Arabian blood thrown in. He is extremely well bred, with a pedigree of the highly successful pony hunter lines of Gayfields Vida Blue, Cymraeg Rain Beau and Hidden Creek Rain Fox.
Sorry, but if someone went on a public forum and called my stallion a mutt, I sure as heck wouldn’t be very happy about it! :no: No more advice from me on this one![/QUOTE]
I’m not one to defend Kyzteke, in fact we rarely agree on anything, but I think her mutt comment was made entirely tongue-in-cheek as a reference to an earlier poster who made a comment about the potential foal being a “mutt”.
I for one, would be interested to see other suggestions and agree you go with a 100% purebred animal proven to pass on consistent traits.
BTW, I saw a video of your Schroeder filly Kyzteke (Shaha-something? I can’t remember) beautiful fully though!
That may very well be…but we all know that people that visit forums don’t always read every post on a thread. These stallion owners have spent countless effort, time and money to promote their stallions don’t need Mare Owners visiting this thread and seeing someone call their stallion a mutt, whether it was said tongue-in-cheek or otherwise!
OP, I think you are confusing people who are trying to help you with people who are bashing your mare as an Akhal-Teke. No one here has suggested that your mare is unlovely or unuseful. They have expressed questions about how she fits into your breeding goal.
You specifically state in your OP that you do not want to risk a ‘hony’ - ie, over 14.2 hands. You also mention that you want the pony to be marketable.
So then the next question is, what do you want this pony to do?
The background you may need is that breeding for ponies is a tough market, and can be very specific. There is little market for pony jumpers. Pony hunters need to be fancy lookers, fancy movers, tolerant of children’s mistakes, and they need to be between 14 h and 14.2. Little margin for error. And, hunter/jumper classes restricted to ponies are also restricted to juniors (under 18).
There is an increasing market for dressage ponies (which can be ridden by adults and also be a smidge taller) and eventers are not as picky about height if it can jump and is catty and is a nice mover.
So when you respond, “My mare is very athletic,” I think you’re talking past the people here trying to help you. Pony hunters don’t have to be all that athletic.
I would have to agree that trying to produce a salable pony hunter out of this mare is starting with something of a handicap - she sounds like a lovely, useful mare but not particularly of hunter type. By trying to do so, you are risking a foal that has no market.
From the way you describe her, I would look more towards a stallion that would complement her in producing a compact jumper. There are people who appreciate smaller horses and now you are opening yourselves to junior or adult riders regardless of the height. You might find that a large pony stallion is just the thing to produce an athletic, capable horse that you’d value, or perhaps a small but powerful horse stallion.
Your confidence that an athletic sound pony can always find a job is, I’m afraid, misplaced. Athleticism is not something Americans tend to value in ponies, and the adults who would tend not to consider pony height animals for themselves.
(PS: people absolutely DO breed horses for ‘trail riding’… never forget that distance riding is a WEG sport…)
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7397236]
Nice boy…ad says LC only… but maybe worth pursuing. Blue roan is a cool color.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, it’s an old ad with old information. That was from his previous owner, Westwood Welsh. He was sold to his rider/trainer, Elly Schobel, because she ADORED him and wanted to bring him along further in his dressage career. I know he was available last season (cooled semen, I think?), but I have not seen him advertised yet this year.
Here’s the current contact info for him:
http://www.thehomestedt.com/ (he’s the little one in the upper righthand corner, but there’s no link to breeding info)
I’ve known Fox Cry Nicodemus since he was imported, he’s a good egg and a good all-arounder.
How 'bout you read ALL the posts on this thread Daventry before you break bad on me. I am not the one who started calling cross-breds “mutts”
This is the post I’ve been responding to[B]:
There are way too many “all rounder” ponies on the ground today. I share their photos weekly from Camelot Auctions via Camelot Horse Weekly on Facebook. There are literally tons of POAs, Quarter Ponies, Welsh and Welsh crosses and Arabs and grades of all of them, who are NOT living a life of luxury or even care for all sorts of reasons. Most of them would be suitable for giving lessons, trail riding, local shows, Pony Club and 4-H in other words, all-rounders. You want to breed a foal that would be Teke, TB, and Welsh. In other words, a mutt. For the life of me I can’t imagine why.[/B]
People need to read before they set someone on fire.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7397703]
OP, I think you are confusing people who are trying to help you with people who are bashing your mare as an Akhal-Teke. No one here has suggested that your mare is unlovely or unuseful. They have expressed questions about how she fits into your breeding goal.
You specifically state in your OP that you do not want to risk a ‘hony’ - ie, over 14.2 hands. You also mention that you want the pony to be marketable.
So then the next question is, what do you want this pony to do?
The background you may need is that breeding for ponies is a tough market, and can be very specific. There is little market for pony jumpers. Pony hunters need to be fancy lookers, fancy movers, tolerant of children’s mistakes, and they need to be between 14 h and 14.2. Little margin for error. And, hunter/jumper classes restricted to ponies are also restricted to juniors (under 18).
There is an increasing market for dressage ponies (which can be ridden by adults and also be a smidge taller) and eventers are not as picky about height if it can jump and is catty and is a nice mover.
So when you respond, “My mare is very athletic,” I think you’re talking past the people here trying to help you. Pony hunters don’t have to be all that athletic.
I would have to agree that trying to produce a salable pony hunter out of this mare is starting with something of a handicap - she sounds like a lovely, useful mare but not particularly of hunter type. By trying to do so, you are risking a foal that has no market.
From the way you describe her, I would look more towards a stallion that would complement her in producing a compact jumper. There are people who appreciate smaller horses and now you are opening yourselves to junior or adult riders regardless of the height. You might find that a large pony stallion is just the thing to produce an athletic, capable horse that you’d value, or perhaps a small but powerful horse stallion.
Your confidence that an athletic sound pony can always find a job is, I’m afraid, misplaced. Athleticism is not something Americans tend to value in ponies, and the adults who would tend not to consider pony height animals for themselves.
(PS: people absolutely DO breed horses for ‘trail riding’… never forget that distance riding is a WEG sport…)[/QUOTE]
First all, “trail riding” is not endurance riding. They are not even remotely the same thing. My Teke stallion bred quite afew Arab mares who were snapped up by endurance riders and I am very familiar with the sport. Doing 100 miles over some of the roughest terrain in the world in 12-24 hrs is most definitely NOT “trail riding”.
But I DO appreciate your insight into the pony-hunter market though. So I am leaning more towards using my Arab/WB mare to produce a dressage pony. I really feel comfortable with the choices I (think) I’ve made.
And, I’ve pretty much already decided to go with Harry (Avalon Belefonte) for the Teke mare (which I’ve said several times on this thread, but I guess people stopped reading after the first post). So I will get a Arab/WB/TB/Teke…and I bet it will be an eventing MACHINE. Or jumper. Probably in the 14.3-15.2 hh range.
Actually I’m still sort of looking, but I pretty sure I will use a more dressagey pony on my Arab/WB cross (found one I like), but I want to make sure that foal is a pony-size so I’m looking more at Welshes that GRP.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;7397751]
Like I said, it’s an old ad with old information. That was from his previous owner, Westwood Welsh. He was sold to his rider/trainer, Elly Schobel, because she ADORED him and wanted to bring him along further in his dressage career. I know he was available last season (cooled semen, I think?), but I have not seen him advertised yet this year.
Here’s the current contact info for him:
http://www.thehomestedt.com/ (he’s the little one in the upper righthand corner, but there’s no link to breeding info)
I’ve known Fox Cry Nicodemus since he was imported, he’s a good egg and a good all-arounder.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I’ll check it out.
While I agree with Kryswyn’s idea that if you are breeding your mare to get a pony, it should be a purposeful breeding in regards to discipline, but I dont agree with her calling our crossbred ponies “mutts”. Sandy Holbrook’s stallions and the Woodlands stallions to name a handful, are crossbreds that are siring some of the top hunter ponies in the industry. And many more top hunter ponies (many valued in the 6 figures) are a result of crossbreeding. And while most of us that have been breeding hunter ponies for years try to produce an “A” circuit pony every time, sometimes the pony ends up a bad size, or gets injured or the the person that bought that promising young pony doesnt do right by it and it does end up at Camelot or some other sale lot. That does not mean that that crossbred pony is a “mutt” and served no purpose in being bred.
You won’t find a performance record on a Caspian because they are too small for adults to show and the gene pool is too limited to geld stallions to use as performance geldings.
There is a stunning one in Canada who is built practically flawlessly and moves like a warmblood. Without a size reference to compare him against, you’d think he was a warmblood if you saw a video. I used to own him. Awesome temperament and athletic as all get out. It would be a super pony. He’s 12hh. There’s also some very nice Caspian stallions in Michigan who have crossbred offspring in the show ring.
I stood a Caspian stallion for several years for a lady from SC who bred them … and halfbreds … for her daughter’s performance ponies. The stallion is deceased now, but the daughter’s first pony … very successful in the pony hunter ring on the FL circuit … was a purebred. The daughter did most of the training on her medium pony, who was a halfbred, and qualified that pony for the Hunter Pony Finals. A filly I bred, by the stallion out of one of my pinto mares is competing successfully in northern KY now. This particular stallion was very consistent in what he produced out of a variety of mares, similar to a very small TB type, but because they are not well known, not easy to market.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7397236]
Nice boy…ad says LC only… but maybe worth pursuing. Blue roan is a cool color.[/QUOTE]
Nick is a very nice stallion. I’ve seen in him person several times and know his breeder and owners. I think he would make an awesome choice for your mare!
[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;7397596]
Kyzteye, I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. You (still) haven’t said what you want the resulting foal to be bred for (as in genre, if you will) but you’re asking for suggestions.
I definitely think that if you go with a pony stallion, it should be purebred.[/QUOTE]
I understand…it’s all good.
After many PMs flying back & forth and this thread I’m glad I started it, because it gave me an insight to the pony HUNTER market, which is apparently more about packing than being a super athlete. It makes sense, because many small ponies are being ridden by kids.
I started thinking about this because the pro who bought Shaharazad RHR (the bay filly in the video) remarked that the market for dressage ponies is growing all the time. I suppose I didn’t realize the majority of small Welsh ponies are bred for HUNTERS.
Because (it seems ) the main goal of GRP’s is to produce a horse as close to 15hh as possible without going over, I can’t look at them.
Anyway, I’ve decided that I will use Harry (Belefonte ) on the Teke mare. I already have a breeding to him, I love working w/Kathy & Jos (when I bred my Weltmeyer mare to Goldmaker that filly finished 3rd in the nation) and that little bugger is doing great in eventing. Was Training Level Regional Champion! So yes, it will be a “mutt” (or cross-bred if you want to be more PC), but the point is 80% of the blood in both horses are proven athletes, primarily in eventing.
So do you guys see my reasoning here? Even though the BREEDS are a mix, there is a consistent talent in most of them at the same thing (eventing). So I’m not breeding to a phenotype/breed so much as I am breeding on a purpose. Hope that makes sense.
I like a “multi-purpose” horse and I like multi-purpose pedigrees; for instance, I like jumper blood in my dressage sires…I look for solid jumpers as a damsire. That has worked REALLY well for me.
One of the first horses I bred was o/o a old TB racing mare from Sailor/Eight-Thirty lines (ask Viney…SUPER TB )sporthorse lines. Picked her up in an auction for $800. Bred her to Ideal, who has WB and AA blood.
My “goal” was just to produce a nice horse. Wasn’t aiming for dressage, jumpers or hunters…
The resulting colt was graded Premium by OldNA, designated as a stallion prospect (although I had him gelded). At 3+ he was sold to a hunter rider, and he did very, VERY well on the FL circuit. She leased him out later and he went to dressage, where he scored very nicely at the lower levels. She told me later “he was the boldest horse I ever knew” and could have made an AWESOME eventer, but she was too chicken.
Last I heard from her, he’s 15yrs old and packing some 12 yr old kid around the hunter circuit…still collecting ribbons.
THAT is an “all-arounder” in my book…and I think it’s a fine breeding goal, personally. Anytime a horse can do multiple things WELL (and with a good attitude), it has a far better chance of finding a permanent home.
As for the pony stallion for my Arab/WB mare, I’m pretty sure I’ve made my choice…with the goal of producing a pony-sized animal who can be competitive in dressage AND jump some. The emphasis will be on dressage, but the stallion I have in mind should be able to be athletic enough to jump some.
WHY? Because if you look at my mare’s pedigree, the WB side is Holsteiner. Obviously mostly jumper-bred. Most Arabs can jump some (although not in “hunter” style). So you have a talent for jumping on that side of the pedigree…why not breed to a pony who also has that talent? Then you have a better chance of the foal also being able to jump some. And even though Werigo (my mare’s sire) was imported as a jumper, he ended up doing dressage with Steffen Peters…all the way to GP. Rigoletto was obviously a sire of (mainly jumpers)…but Ramzes, HIS sire produced Olympic winning dressage horses AND Olympic winning jumpers…I guess he was the ultimate “all-arounder”.
BTW, he was a TB/Arab cross…
Honestly folks…I am NOT doing this arbitrarily or casually. If you read all my (long-winded) posts, I put ALOT of thought into my breedings and go VERY deep into pedigrees from all angles. And, because both these mares are homebred, I know their parents, (and in some case grandparents), what THEY produced, etc. etc.
Anyway, thanks to all for all the suggestions…it’s certainly been educational…
Sure sounds like you are Kysteke.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7395623]
Obvious the “short back” is not a Teke characteristic, but if you do your research (per the TB Heritage site), back (WAAAY back) when TBs ran courses of 4 miles & more, a long back was considered desirable. Even today, when I read about conformation desired by jumpers & eventers (and even dressage), most would prefer a “slightly” longer back to a too-short back.
Here is a video (very old) of Kadima’s sire, Kinor. Yes, he had a long back…but tell me this guy wasn’t super athletic in the way he used his body…he had no problems getting his hind end underneath himself. (BTW, because I didn’t know much about YT back then, the video actually ends at about 3:00…the rest is just dark).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euh2RLP-NDE
So many people don’t realize that, even though many Tekes don’t meet the standard Western criteria for “perfect” conformation, they use their bodies in such a unique way, they can be AMAZING athletes.
This is WAY OT, but I think I need to share this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgtMJ240qNk
This video piece (long) was compiled by probably THE top Teke breeder in the world…a Russian named Leonid Babaev. He “studied” under a man “Shamborant” who was considered probably the best breeder of Tekes in the past generation. Granted, these are some of the top Tekes out there (and all of the old B&W footage is of Absent), but no one can say these aren’t lovely, athletic horses who can perform.
I would hope ANY stallion owner would judge a mare on their own merits rather than their breed…and so far, every ad I’ve clicked on says “all breeds welcome.”
Now…back to the topic at hand…
If I were to use Belefonte on Kadima (the Teke cross) and a Welsh stallion on my Arab/WB girl (Angel)…any recommendations?[/QUOTE]
FWIW a short back on a pony CAN be a problem fitting a saddle, especially if the rider is an adult.
…Avalon just put up a new video of Belafonte that I thought you might like to see…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fb_ulLneYA&feature=youtu.be
[QUOTE=SleepyHollow;7403190]
…Avalon just put up a new video of Belafonte that I thought you might like to see…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fb_ulLneYA&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
Awesome!! I am going to get an eventing FOOL o/o this cross…mark my words!
BTW, I forgot to mention that this Teke/TB mare’s granddam (the TB) is the mare mentioned in post #53. Although she wasn’t that great at racing (although she did win a 1 mile Allowance race against the boys), her pedigree is full of respected SPORTHORSE producing TBs, like EIght Thirty, Sailor, etc.
The Teke side is FILLED with successful eventers/jumpers, including some who won at some pretty big East Coast shows.
And if you look at Harry’s pedigree, jumpers abound, even on the GRP side…I also like that he has Ideal in there…again, note post #53…when I bred that TB mare to Ideal I could not have been more pleased with what I got.
See…I don’t always just go “I want to produce a dressage horse…” and start there. Instead I look at pedigrees, former breedings (if the blood in the same) and then stallions I just like and research THEM. Often (and this thread is a fine example), I begin to see that, rather than a dressage horse, Mating Mare A to Stallion B could produce a great jumper (example).
Anyway, it’s worked well for me so far…keep fingers crossed.
Thanks for the video Sleepy…that “mutt” sure can jump!!:lol:
You can get over the mutt stuff. Most of the commentary was very specific to the issue of attempting to produce a hunter pony from a long backed 15.1 h mare of horse bloodlines.
With a 14.3 stallion I expect the baby will jump, but I think you can also expect that hony you were concerned about. Now, I like honies, but I can’t say that they’re easy to sell or an especially lucrative market. A 16 h stallion might give you that tad more height that puts the baby firmly in horse-land, even if still small and compact.
I think you are quite right that she is better suited to produce an eventer or jumper. It sounds like she is very interesting and I wish you the best of luck.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7404547]
You can get over the mutt stuff. Most of the commentary was very specific to the issue of attempting to produce a hunter pony from a long backed 15.1 h mare of horse bloodlines.
With a 14.3 stallion I expect the baby will jump, but I think you can also expect that hony you were concerned about. Now, I like honies, but I can’t say that they’re easy to sell or an especially lucrative market. A 16 h stallion might give you that tad more height that puts the baby firmly in horse-land, even if still small and compact.
I think you are quite right that she is better suited to produce an eventer or jumper. It sounds like she is very interesting and I wish you the best of luck.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I probably WILL get something over 14.3hh. But I already have the breeding to Harry and I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. And by the time the foal is born (2015) who knows what the market will be like?
When this mare gives me a foal, it will give me a better idea of what sort of stallion to chose for her next time…and I probably WILL go with a taller stallion. But, like I said, I already have the breeding to Harry and I think it will make a fine cross.
I haven’t plowed through all the posts but I will throw out that I bred a really really nice pony mare out of a welsh mountain pony (11 hh) and an akhal teke stallion. Clara de Vos in Holland has also produced some really outstanding looking and performing (jumping and endurance) welsh-teke crosses, though the dam was a much larger welsh and the offspring are all well over pony height. Of course you are looking to go the other way (teke mare) but the welsh blood seems to mix very nicely with the teke.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers, Lisa
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