Does the blooded horse only bring lightness and the heavy horse (coach horse, Agricultural horse) bring the ability (jumping, dressage)?
People keep saying that the mixing of the two and specialization made today’s horses (much) better than any blood horse or heavy horse (of the past).
But for example dressage breeding is not very old and specialized breeding within the K.W.P.N. is also not so old.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/06/breeding-dressage-horses-a-global-perspective/
People say that the old time heavy type is gone and the odd one could be made lighter by using a light sport horse. Old type horses and blood horses are considered bad for sport and not particular useful for breeding. People look at the old type horse as ideal for recreational riding (quietness) and the blood horse as maybe good for eventing (however warmbloods are considered as good or better), but apart from that… Any of those horses is considered a fluke of nature when it does perform well.
So the ingredients of today’s sport hors are now considered inferior to today’s sport horse and a good one can only be a fluke.
http://www.arabians.de/arabians/Pferde/katanga.html
The blood horse brings in other factors than lightness.
Good gallops, speed, endurance, fluidity (properly trained), intelligence, and, with some of them, an active interest in their people and their work. The hot blood horses were also used in the beginning to bring in proper riding conformation and to improve the circulatory and respiratory systems.
Hot blood horses can be generalists (not always, of course), able to run fast, or with proper training, able to do any other type of work, from light harness, polo, hunting, jumping (a TB STILL has the official high jump record), dressage, stock horse work, and just about any type of work that a light horse does. They tend not to have the HIGH action at the trot or the “expressive” gaits, those traits come from the colder blood carriage horses. Unfortunately hot blood horses tend to be too sensitive for many riders, unlike the often calmer colder blooded horses.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8306728]
Unfortunately hot blood horses tend to be too sensitive for many riders, unlike the often calmer colder blooded horses.[/QUOTE]
Ridden any Jazz offspring lately?
I I think this is a major simplification. Warmbloods have been selectively bred for sport for many generations which tends to fix traits. They can have a tendency to get heavier through successive generations. The hotter breeds add lightness and endurance among other things.
But how about Wilawander xx who was a nice dressage (type) horse?
Modern Warmbloods now have a LOT of hot blood in them. Eventually, with enough hot blood the cold blood personality traits disappear.
When I started riding decades ago the local hunt seat progression seemed to be to learn to ride on a quieter horse, then go to a hotter half TB, then as the rider got better go on up to a 3/4 or a full TB.
As much TB, Shagya, and Arabian blood has been added to the colder blooded warm blood mare lines I WOULD expect the horses to get a hotter, more sensitive temperament, up to the point that some can be as hot and crazy as a TB.
In Podhajsky’s book “My Horses, My Teachers” he describes his experience training Nero, a TB (by Dark Ronald, I think), to international competition in dressage.
Fillis, the French dressage master, wrote in his book that he considered TBs to be the only horses truly suitable to dressage (this was long, long ago.) From the pictures in Fillis’s book he did manage to get the TB equivalent of “expressive” gaits out of his horses. Fillis BELIEVED in the suitability of hot blooded TBs for high levels of dressage, at least that is what he wrote. One of his exhibition horses was supposed to be half-trotter blood, but he did deep research, found the stud groom who did the actual breeding of this horse, and found out that the sire was an Anglo-Arab, leaving Fillis quite content with his theory the TBs and other hot bloods could, with proper training, make the best dressage horses for his system of training and riding. He wrote that he preferred them above all the other types of horses for the dressage he was doing.
Warm bloods are IMPRESSIVE horses, sometimes nearing perfection. TB, Shagya, and Arab blood helped make them impressive riding horses, with more stamina, speed, and better riding gaits than the original European breeding stock. Just my humble opinion, of course.
Inschallah is a AA that made a significant contribution to type , movement and blood to several WB registries. Kallistos and Matcho are also major contributors from years prior
http://www.ranbyhall.com/stravinsky.html
http://www.bastruphorses.com/htm/Strauss.htm
http://www.ranbyhall.com/site/
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/wilawander_xx.shtml
http://www.coomans.nl/index.php?page=Hengsten_Wilawander
http://www.watermolen.net/index.php?c=Paard&type=3&l=&id=22&l=eng
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10440280
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10223037
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10223036
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10212330
Some nice articles, however all in German:
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/xxveredler%20im%20SF.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Heraldik.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Holsteiner%20Blutaufbau.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Condrieu%20xx.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Langata%20Express.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Sir%20Shostakovich.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/xxfohlen%20im%20Sport.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Casino%20Boy.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Salient.htm
http://obdb.free.fr/articles/Veredlerhengste%20-%20Lauries%20Crusader.htm
When I look at photos and videos of for example the horse Snowbound (but also Stroller!) I am very impressed. Height, speed, tight turns, anything, no problem!
And the horse was bred to race and not to jump. How is that possible?!
https://www.google.com/search?q=steinkraus+snowbound+jumping+jumper&hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&ei=z_3vVYj4K8Py7AaNi6-oCw&start=0&sa=N
https://www.google.com/search?q=steinkraus+snowbound+jumping+jumper&hl=en&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0CAQQ_AVqFQoTCOPn59vT6ccCFQ8X2wod3K8KgQ
Snowbound’s history
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/my-memories-snowbound
A few points:
Gay Vic (Snowbound) was bought off the track by a dealer at age 5, that dealer being a champion rider and instructor. (So had a very good intro to jump training, was well ridden, and selected by a knowledgable person in the first place.)
Then bought by a noted supplier of Olympic level horses off of his performance in a Hunter show. (This in the day where green hunters showed over 3’6" fences)
Offerred to the team in the De Nemethy era (outstanding horseman and trainer, probably never equaled as an Olympic coach.)
He was brought along systematically and showed his tremendous talent early.
He received plenty of schooling on the flat developing balance, control and handiness and De Nemethy’s method of teaching horses correct approach to fences.
He was schooled carefully over European courses and learned every type of jump and course.
He was ridden by Wm. Steinkraus…
This horse had EVERY opportunity and was very carefully managed beginning to end by top horsemen.
“And the horse was bred to race and not to jump. How is that possible?!”
Thoroughbreds are athletes, first and foremost. Directing that athleticism into a jump career may be possible with the right horse and the right ‘support’ from expert horsemen.
There were many TBs that came off the track and went through the same people’s hands and were NOT Snowbound.
The great ones are few.
The good horse of any breed will do his job to his best ability: and sometimes that ability is astounding.
“…But within the range of his scope, he was just an exceptionally clean and versatile jumper, and as game as horses come. You felt you could ride him through the eye of a needle and that if you pointed him at a house, he’d try to jump it.”
Stroller was TB x Connemara, always a great cross. And he was a gorgeous pony.
But he and Marion had something far more. Marion was an exceptional rider from a family of riders. Her family developed Jumpers.
Above all, Marion believed in Stroller… I think he believed in her, too. Sometimes a horse will do wondrous feats if asked by the right person.
http://www.horsenation.com/2015/03/13/horses-in-history-stroller-the-olympic-wonder-pony/
[QUOTE=Elles;8306604]
People keep saying that the mixing of the two and specialization made today’s horses (much) better than any blood horse or heavy horse (of the past).
But for example dressage breeding is not very old and specialized breeding within the K.W.P.N. is also not so old.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/06/breeding-dressage-horses-a-global-perspective/
People say that the old time heavy type is gone and the odd one could be made lighter by using a light sport horse. Old type horses and blood horses are considered bad for sport and not particular useful for breeding. People look at the old type horse as ideal for recreational riding (quietness) and the blood horse as maybe good for eventing (however warmbloods are considered as good or better), but apart from that… Any of those horses is considered a fluke of nature when it does perform well.
So the ingredients of today’s sport hors are now considered inferior to today’s sport horse and a good one can only be a fluke.
http://www.arabians.de/arabians/Pferde/katanga.html[/QUOTE]
Horses are developed in their training by humans. Humans are opinionated with strong favoritism regarding horses and it has always been this way.
This is of course, why we have horse competition in the first place: “My horse is better than yours!”
If one loses, then the winner (if of a different breed) will likely be labeled a fluke, or ugly/faulty conformation, temperamental, or flawed in some less useful way: too big, too small, too much white, chestnut, roan, hairy, etc.
-The horse won.
Now getting a person to believe that a non-competing horse of breed ABC is an excellent prospect?
Will only happen if the horse is in the hands of expert horsemen who ‘verify’ the talent and develop the horse. Then it competes against others with a top rider giving it a consistent sympathetic ride and looks unbeatable.
It will still be a fluke, this time due to the backing and rider; let’s all forget that all top horses must have great backing and riders.
But at that point, no one will care, because the team is winning. And at that point, but not before, the horse will be worth some money; the capitalist measure of ‘worth’ worldwide.
A little more on Stroller
“How could this little pony compete against the big guns? He did in 1967 at the Antwerp show and cleared the wall at 6ft 8 in. and dislodged a brick when the height went to 6ft. 10 inches to win the class together with the great Alwin Schockemöhle on Athlet, a puissance specialist.”
Jumping is muscular reaction time (turning and agility) + power off the ground + ability to propel forward over spread jumps…
plus choosing not to hit jumps and choosing to continue on and over the next jump plus listening to the rider for direction.
You decide which traits are from which side of the background. They all have to be there in abundance in a great horse.
Then they have to be developed. And it is easy to ruin any of them, especially the horse’s confidence
.
A nice read on some of the TBs of the 1960’s
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/kathy-kusner-and-three-thoroughbreds-challenged-tradition
The Coth wayback machine is useful, too.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-135900.html
The Coth wayback machine is useful, too.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-135900.html
Thank you D_BaldStockings for all the information you have given me.
The trainer that is training my Thoroughbred horse at the moment gets to see lots and lots of warmblood sport horses. He told me that even with the ones that have specifically been bred for jumping it is always wait and see if they really have a talent for jumping. Maybe with a number of them it is also very much the believe, skill and persistance of the rider that brings out the best in the horses that at first sight do not seem the most talented.
https://eclectic-horseman.com/bettina-drummond-talks-about-mr-nuno-oliveira/
http://histoire-equitation.over-blog.fr/
Mr Oliveira had a Thoroughbred horse named Talar.
