http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/08/re-training-the-off-the-track-thoroughbred-as-a-jumper/
http://www.stutteri-godthaab.dk/hingste/underworld-xx-dvh-602.html
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=obrigado
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8307627]
Modern Warmbloods now have a LOT of hot blood in them. Eventually, with enough hot blood the cold blood personality traits disappear.
When I started riding decades ago the local hunt seat progression seemed to be to learn to ride on a quieter horse, then go to a hotter half TB, then as the rider got better go on up to a 3/4 or a full TB.
As much TB, Shagya, and Arabian blood has been added to the colder blooded warm blood mare lines I WOULD expect the horses to get a hotter, more sensitive temperament, up to the point that some can be as hot and crazy as a TB. [/QUOTE]
You seem to equate the term “hot blood” with “hot” temperament. Some people make that mistake, usually because they haven’t ridden or been exposed to enough members of the breed.
Little kids ride and show Arabians. (I did). I have ridden many TB’s. I hacked out on both breeds as a kid. There are temperamentally “hot” horses of most every breed (and some that are just ill tempered and unsuitable for anything but professional handling).
I never rode “off the track” TB’s however much of the difficulty that people have with those is due to their training, not the breed. There are many many good natured TB’s and Arabians.
I think your assertion that TB or Arab blood is responsible for “hot-and-crazy-as-a-TB” Warmbloods is way off the mark. :yes:
Hi skydy, I apologize for not being clearer. FWIW my first horse (angel from heaven) was a just gelded, 3 weeks green-broke 5 yr. old Anglo-Arab gelding. I have owned several Arabs and I have dealt with and ridden some TBs.
Some of the older horsepeople wrote about different types of nervous system structure. They wrote that “hot bloods”, often thin skinned, have a different way of reacting to their surroundings than the “cold blood” horses, often with thicker skins. Several marks of “blood” are especially revealed by the thinness of the skin on the head, revealing the bone surface of the skull in the horse’s face. When the hot blood’s super mobile ears, nostrils with large “intakes”, and often more prominent eyes combine with the thin skin, these horses are often more sensitive and reactive to their environments. “Colder blood” horses can be just as reactive, it is just that the “hotter blood” horses tend to notice things and react to them MORE than their “cooler” companions. Of course these statements are broad generalities, I am talking about tendencies, not graven in stone unalterable facts.
I have noticed and I have read that “hot blooded” horses tend to react to surprise pain more vehemently, with sudden movement and sudden defensive movements. This can make them a more challenging ride for someone with a weak seat and unsteady hands and legs. The old advice from the equestrian authors was a “regular” horse, then a half-bred horse (TB or Arab), then as the rider gains security and learns how to control her own body, then the rider is qualified to ride either a 3/4 or full “hot blood” on their own, including riding alone outside of the riding ring.
And, again in broad generalities, the two different types of equine tend to react to abuse differently. “Hot bloods” react strongly, try to run away, if unable to run away they can “explode”, and they can become very resentful and are willing to express their resentment. “Cold blood” horses tend to go on “strike” after their objections to the abuse are ignored. They shut down more, and often refuse to move.
The Warm Bloods have been infused with liberal amounts of TB, Shagya, Arab, Anglo-Arab, and lesser amounts of Barb blood for centuries. EARLY TBs are in the pedigrees of the English horses the Holstein breeders brought in as they started adding speed, endurance, and riding qualities to their mare lines in the 1800s. For every change in direction with the breeding another outcross, either hot blood or a warm blood with several hot blood crosses, was used. Stallions like the Holstein Ethelbert whose blood infused the Holstein breed.
Warm Bloods are a mixture of hot and cool “bloods”. Each individual horse will express different amounts of traits from these sources. Some will express their hot side, others will express a cooler side. Horses are all different in their expressions of who they are.
Got to go, I get to ride a horse this morning! (Arab-Welsh grey teenage mare.) Have a great day!
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8313835]
Hi skydy, I apologize for not being clearer. FWIW my first horse (angel from heaven) was a just gelded, 3 weeks green-broke 5 yr. old Anglo-Arab gelding. I have owned several Arabs and I have dealt with and ridden some TBs.
Some of the older horsepeople wrote about different types of nervous system structure. They wrote that “hot bloods”, often thin skinned, have a different way of reacting to their surroundings than the “cold blood” horses, often with thicker skins. Several marks of “blood” are especially revealed by the thinness of the skin on the head, revealing the bone surface of the skull in the horse’s face. When the hot blood’s super mobile ears, nostrils with large “intakes”, and often more prominent eyes combine with the thin skin, these horses are often more sensitive and reactive to their environments. “Colder blood” horses can be just as reactive, it is just that the “hotter blood” horses tend to notice things and react to them MORE than their “cooler” companions. Of course these statements are broad generalities, I am talking about tendencies, not graven in stone unalterable facts.
I have noticed and I have read that “hot blooded” horses tend to react to surprise pain more vehemently, with sudden movement and sudden defensive movements. This can make them a more challenging ride for someone with a weak seat and unsteady hands and legs. The old advice from the equestrian authors was a “regular” horse, then a half-bred horse (TB or Arab), then as the rider gains security and learns how to control her own body, then the rider is qualified to ride either a 3/4 or full “hot blood” on their own, including riding alone outside of the riding ring.
And, again in broad generalities, the two different types of equine tend to react to abuse differently. “Hot bloods” react strongly, try to run away, if unable to run away they can “explode”, and they can become very resentful and are willing to express their resentment. “Cold blood” horses tend to go on “strike” after their objections to the abuse are ignored. They shut down more, and often refuse to move.
The Warm Bloods have been infused with liberal amounts of TB, Shagya, Arab, Anglo-Arab, and lesser amounts of Barb blood for centuries. EARLY TBs are in the pedigrees of the English horses the Holstein breeders brought in as they started adding speed, endurance, and riding qualities to their mare lines in the 1800s. For every change in direction with the breeding another outcross, either hot blood or a warm blood with several hot blood crosses, was used. Stallions like the Holstein Ethelbert whose blood infused the Holstein breed.
Warm Bloods are a mixture of hot and cool “bloods”. Each individual horse will express different amounts of traits from these sources. Some will express their hot side, others will express a cooler side. Horses are all different in their expressions of who they are.
Got to go, I get to ride a horse this morning! (Arab-Welsh grey teenage mare.) Have a great day![/QUOTE]
Oh, you were clear the first time. No apologies needed.
I just disagree.
I think you confuse “hot” blood with “hot” temperament. Perhaps we have different definitions of a “hot” temperament? To me and to most people I know, sensitive does not equal “hot”.
I am aware of the infusion of xx into the Warmblood. There is no need to go into what people wrote in the 1800’s, people with any interest in the subject already know the background and we are all familiar with the differing temperaments and characteristics of the different breeds. 
Yes, you are speaking in “broad generalities” and they are so broad that they are meaningless in the context of my post to you, regarding your assertion that TB and Arab blood way back in the pedigree is responsible for “hot” Warmbloods..
I don’t know what old equestrian authors you are reading but I’ve never read such a thing as beginning riders being put on horses and moving up according to the horses breed. Perhaps someone, somewhere way back when, thought that was a great idea.
Most horseman put beginning riders up on horses with a good temperament. Many teachers in the past taught beginners on the longe (many still do so today) and when they attained an independent seat they were expected to ride anything.
I don’t really see what any of this has to do with the topic however, which was your statement that some Warmbloods can be “as hot and crazy as a thoroughbred” and that they are so, because of the TB blood of their ancestor(s).
TB and Arab blood are not responsible for a Warmblood that has a “hot” temperament. Today’s “hot” Warmblood is not “expressing” his (very diluted) TB or Arab blood. It just doesn’t work that way.
Warmbloods are not a cross between a draft (cold blood) and a TB (hot blood) as has been argued ad nauseum (by mostly young,uninformed enthusiasts) on this BB. That is not the Warmblood of today.
That belief is an unfortunate result of the ignorance in the U.S. about the Warmblood registries in Europe, and of kids books that perpetuated the hot+cold= warmblood idea.
I know much more from personal experience about TBs than I do about WBs, however I do understand what breeders do and how they make decisions, having worked for several small, but excellent breeders.
There are some TB bloodlines that are known for horrible temperaments, however I sincerely doubt that those sires were chosen by breeders to contribute to the various WB registries’ gene pools. I very much doubt that the breeders of yesteryear chose “crazy” TB or Arab lines.
It seems to me that you really believe that a Warmblood with a “hot” temperament is “expressing” the “crazy” TB blood of his ancestors and I’m saying that I find that to be a very strange and incorrect belief.
Hope you had a great ride. :yes:
Here in the Netherlands any hotblood that was inspected by warmblood studbooks was and is tested/assessed for their temperament and character. And I noticed many times that they got high marks for their drive, willingness, cooperation, conduct, temperament, amenity and/or cooperation.
Could we please also talk about the power of the blood horse or maybe the lack of it? I often hear that you need warmblood for power and that the light horse/hot blood is lacking in power.
Looking for example at the TB Frankel, he looks very powerful:
http://www.juddmonte.com/multimedia/gallery/frankel/photo-20.jpg
About the power: Going through the Holsteiner Stutenstamme I was struck by how a cross with the TB helped to lengthen the croup.
What I see in the pictures of the early Holstein mare lines is a strain of horses with somewhat short croups. As Hot Blood got added the croups lengthened somewhat. With the Holstein, you go far enough back in the pedigrees, and there is a great amount of Hot Blood added throughout the decades. Top Arabian and top TB genes were bred into the native mare lines.
Amurath 1881, for instance, was considered one of the top outcross stallions in Europe. His blood is found in many of the Warm Blood pedigrees. I found Holstein mares that I liked, and many of them had several crosses 4 to 6 generations back to Shagya Arab Amurath II, a son of Amurath 1881.
The Hostein stallion Ethelbert, extremely influential several generations back in the pedigrees, was half TB, of the Darley Arabian sire line. I was VERY impressed by the get of one stallion of this sire line, Heidelberg, whose sire was line bred to Ethelbert and Amurath II, and whose dam also had lines to Ethelbert and Amurath II.
The modern TB and other hot blood outcrosses seem to lengthen the croup, lengthen the shoulder, shift the withers back which increases the slope of the shoulder, and possibly deepen the heart girth. The TB, Shagya Arab and pure Arab blood adds RIDING QUALITIES to the inherent power of the native mare lines. Adding hot blood is how the European breeders turned a light agricultural draft horse into first a fancier light harness horse, into an impressive carriage horse, into a calvalry/artillery horse, into a riding horse, into the present day super impressive Warm Bloods.
The European breeders did this with Hot Blood outcrosses, and I get the impression that these breeds can still benefit from Hot Blood outcrosses, either directly or through outcrosses with other Warm Blood breeds that have enormous Hot Blood influence as far back as one can go in the pedigrees.
All this is just my opinion of course.
Been around a lot of VERY nice jumpers…none hold a candle to Gem Twist. The power he had over a jump would back you away from the standards. In the stall…he was an unimpressive 16.1-16.2 hand TB that looked like many other TBs. But he would puff himself up in the ring and man…that horse could jump and was catty. He would have been competitive on today’s courses as well.
He was NOT a fluke…but came from a long line of TBs bred for jumping and competitive internationally. Back when US riders produced from scratch many of their top rides and US riders were top of the world standings.
What is it that made Gem Twist such an incredible horse?
[QUOTE=Elles;8315278]
What is it that made Gem Twist such an incredible horse?[/QUOTE]
Same thing that made his sire an incredible horse… They had it all. Power, scope, carefulness, heart, intelligence. They were well put together jumping machines…very athletic horses with sharp intelligence who loved the sport.
You then add that they ended up in the right hands…right training program for them with the right riders. It all plays an important role.
The Bonne Nuit (Good Twist) family of TB’s, bred for jumping, was rather consistent.
Some info on this thread from the archives
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-165976.html
I watched videos of Gem Twist and he looks wonderful yes. Here in Holland there are quite a number of people who know about him and speak very well of him.
Thanks for the link!
http://archive.is/D5TcA
Anglo-Arabian thoroughbreds (AA)
A closed register; only open to English or Arabian thoroughbreds
The breeding program for riding horses is marked by an increase in quality and a growing interest from breeders. This is probably the result of the fact that the NRPS breeding management stimulates the use of stallions that were bred for performance or have proven to be performance stallions, as well as the use of Anglo-Arabian stallions for the benefit of the breeding program for riding horses. In practice, cross-breeds between Anglo-Arabian thoroughbreds and riding horses show a great aptitude for performance. In a country like France. focussed on breeding performance. the Anglo-Arabian horse is more popular than the English thoroughbred when it comes to ennobling the breeding program for riding horses.
Elles,
You may want to look at some of the threads over in the Eventing forum. While many are not breeders, they are certainly familiar with the TB as a sport horse.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?475467-Can-you-look-at-this-TB-pedigree-for-me
There are people using their TBs for breeding Sport horse Eventers, etc.
Gem Twist’s clone Gemini Twist is available, just google Gemini Twist semen.
Thank you D_BaldStockings, I have been following the threads on the eventing forum. In my country there are very few Thoroughbred horses so I always find it very interesting to read about the experiences of people in countries that do have a lot of Thoroughbred horses.
I just love to read about the wonderful show jumping Thoroughbreds of the past! But also the great eventing Thoroughbreds of the past en the present.
Does the (type) of linebreeding say anything about which genes have influenced the horse the most? Let’s look for example at this horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10596308&blood=10"a=
In my eyes this is SO true:
http://www.happy-horse-training.com/dressage-riding.html
Whether through forceful aiding with spurs and double bridle, or by seeking the ever more talented horse whose spectacular movement overshadows the quality of the riding, this approach is taking us further and further away from what dressage, or simply good riding, is really about.
