http://www.happy-horse-training.com/on-the-bit.html
Many people are attracted to dressage for the sheer spectacle of the performance of horse and rider, and would disagree with reducing it to a question of geometry, but the irony is that in focusing on the spectacle and forgetting the gymnastic goal of dressage, in our opinion the beauty of performance had been totally lost in most competitive dressage (and in many other forms of dressage spectacle).
Keep in mind that today’s TBs are unrecognizable as the TBs that were used years back in WB breeding. There is no modern day Gem Twist (unless you count the clones, which I do not).
Also, that most of the TBs used were not American and were of very different type than even the old American lines.
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8325042]
Keep in mind that today’s TBs are unrecognizable as the TBs that were used years back in WB breeding. There is no modern day Gem Twist (unless you count the clones, which I do not).
Also, that most of the TBs used were not American and were of very different type than even the old American lines.[/QUOTE]
I disagree completely. We are still finding really well built TBs and good moving/jumping ones…even from just race bred ones. You just have to know where to look.
But in today’s SJ riders…not as many are interested in riding a TB as they can make more money selling WBs and TBs are a more sensitive ride. Plus you do have to search a bit harder to find the good TBs.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LDoQt3VvEl4
https://youtu.be/MnMlsQWalzM
https://youtu.be/BppjOpemn4M
/Three year old thoroughbred.
. Plus you do have to search a bit harder to find the good TBs.
And this is the crux of why they no longer belong in WB breeding programs.
There are lovely individuals out there, but there isn’t enough consistency to reliability pass on good traits. Since breeding is a crap shoot under the best of circumstances, starting with only the best bloodlines is critical.
I’d have no problem riding one of today’s great TBs. I just wouldn’t use them for sport horse breeding.
Orlando is quite TB like and he is doing well.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/266222
Three year old Thoroughbred: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=11038674&time=1443024111&z=bRTPzi
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=11038674&nm=2&time=1443024138https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGcdi8p5u4
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8329848]
And this is the crux of why they no longer belong in WB breeding programs.
There are lovely individuals out there, but there isn’t enough consistency to reliability pass on good traits. Since breeding is a crap shoot under the best of circumstances, starting with only the best bloodlines is critical.
I’d have no problem riding one of today’s great TBs. I just wouldn’t use them for sport horse breeding.[/QUOTE]
Again…depends on your breeding goals. Those of us breeding event horses NEED and want good full TBs. You have to know your TB lines as well as picking the right type of TB. There are several modern lines that very consistently produce good types. I have 3 horses all out of the same TB dam who made it to FEI levels and one about to go 4* in eventing. One of those 3 is a full TB and is absolutely a valued part of my breeding program…more than the German imported WB (who is lovely too…but I’m generations from her in producing offspring with enough blood for top levels of eventing).
Dressagelvr has drunk the KoolAid. All thoroughbreds today still carry the genetics of the breed founders; all have pretty much the same genes. If a horse (Herod) whose direct male descendants are almost extinct and who was born in 1758 still provides an average 17-18% of TB genetics, the breed hasn’t changed that much genetically. As BFNE says, it’s all in the search. And could be in the breeding.
I am always surprised by those who think horses several generations removed are of no consequence in breeding animals -if they are the ‘wrong’ breed.
So horses like Nimmerdor, Galoubet, Argentinus, Capitol I, Darco are looked for in pedigrees to produce jumpers (as they should be).
While horses of the same era that are TBs (and were mostly not bred from, as the $ in Tbs is in racehorses and non-racers are almost universally gelded) even if from 4 generations of jumping Tbs or if they are the damsire of great horses (Capitol I has 3 of 4 G-grandsires as Tbs, the 4th is Ramzes) are completely dismissed.
I’d like to know where the jumpers would be without Cor de la Bryere by Rantzau XX.
There ARE STILL many ranked jumpers with over 50% blood, TB no further removed than grandparents.
just one example
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1703986
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8330810]
I am always surprised by those who think horses several generations removed are of no consequence in breeding animals -if they are the ‘wrong’ breed.
So horses like Nimmerdor, Galoubet, Argentinus, Capitol I, Darco are looked for in pedigrees to produce jumpers (as they should be).
While horses of the same era that are TBs (and were mostly not bred from, as the $ in Tbs is in racehorses and non-racers are almost universally gelded) even if from 4 generations of jumping Tbs or if they are the damsire of great horses (Capitol I has 3 of 4 G-grandsires as Tbs, the 4th is Ramzes) are completely dismissed.
I’d like to know where the jumpers would be without Cor de la Bryere by Rantzau XX.
There ARE STILL many ranked jumpers with over 50% blood, TB no further removed than grandparents.
just one example
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1703986[/QUOTE]
And the top International courses are smaller but tighter, specially designed primarily to test rideability and power, not power and scope. Those are design choices that are not carved in stone. Even TB jumper riders admit it’s hard to package a good jumping TB for a modern course. He who controls course design controls the type of horse that will jump them well and those who breed for them.
How about Nabab de Reve:
6 of 8 g-g-g-grandsire are TB, the other 2 are Ibrahim and the Orange Peel XX son Plein d’espoires
Or this mare
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/444707
granddam of Cohiba Z 1.6m showjumper
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/444705
Or this gelding (same mareline) Tamerlan II by Franc Ryk XX
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/175272
Franc Ryk XX also is grandsire to Quariosa
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1682937
And Johnny Boy II out of a Night and Day XX mare, the sire of Johnny Boy
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1606193?levels=5
[QUOTE=Elles;8333023]
http://eventingconnect.today/2015/09/25/how-much-thoroughbred-blood-is-in-a-competitive-four-star-horse/[/QUOTE]
I think what is MORE telling than that article though is what the UL Pros look for and now want to ride…and almost ALL who have been running around 4* tracks want more blood in the horses they are buying as prospects to move up the levels (as opposed to the resale horses). There was a stint about 5 years ago that many jumped on the WB bandwagon looking to get the better dressage scores…and most have jumped right back off realizing that they need the gallop more than anything. Heartbreaking to put years of training into them to find out they are not going to have the speed and endurance to make it at the big 4* CCI events or they break down because of the increased work to get them fit enough.
Little bit off topic. About good steeplechasing horses. In this list there are quite a lot of horses that do not have Mr. Prospector in the pedigree but there is a very good one who has Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer relatively few generations back. Can that horse be considered a fluke? Or could there be many more if only being given a chance?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/katko
http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+fellow
http://www.pedigreequery.com/el+triunfo
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ucello2
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ubu
http://www.pedigreequery.com/arenice
http://www.pedigreequery.com/al+capone3
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mandarino
http://www.pedigreequery.com/vieux+beaufai
http://www.pedigreequery.com/kotkijet
http://www.pedigreequery.com/el+paso8
http://www.pedigreequery.com/line+marine
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sleeping+jack
http://www.pedigreequery.com/princesse+danjou
http://www.pedigreequery.com/remember+rose
http://www.pedigreequery.com/polar+rochelais
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mid+dancer
http://www.pedigreequery.com/storm+of+saintly
http://www.pedigreequery.com/milord+thomas
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bel+la+vie
I mean this horse Mid Dancer:
https://thewinningpost.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/img_0054.jpg
. Dressagelvr has drunk the KoolAid.
You’re right. I must be delusional missing all the horses bred with close up TB winning all the big shows.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8330843]
And the top International courses are smaller but tighter, specially designed primarily to test rideability and power, not power and scope. Those are design choices that are not carved in stone. Even TB jumper riders admit it’s hard to package a good jumping TB for a modern course. He who controls course design controls the type of horse that will jump them well and those who breed for them.[/QUOTE]
I always wondered why people didn’t simply pick the 15.2 or so ‘polo pony’ type of TB for show jumping; handy, good acceleration, turn on a dime, used in small fields and must adjust instantly, usually a bit shorter on the leg…
Not going to get the small arena jumper from a 16.2 ‘Hunter prospect’ TB much of the time. And the smaller TBs really seem to go begging for buyers much of the time.
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8335075]
You’re right. I must be delusional missing all the horses bred with close up TB winning all the big shows.[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends on what you consider ‘close up’.
on the papers of a 4 generation pedigree ranked jumper?
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1650640
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1649099
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1649099
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1770314
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/520995
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/179079
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/546009
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/184583
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/43162
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/53145
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/656013
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/510261
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1610334
Maybe you are only interested in TB sires or dams, in which case you are right: very few.
On the other hand, not many are even tried at SJ: most are OffTrack, and most of those are not bred on.
Europe does not seem to re-train OT retirees at all, as the USA does; and here they seem pointed for the $$ hunter youth/ammy market, not to jumping - even when they can go higher.
