An interesting Tb sire I had not heard of
SIT THIS ONE OUT
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/5799?levels=6
Used on KWPN mares.
Looks like he not only sired some 1.6m jumpers, but has daughters have produced well with various lines, both Jumping and Dressage (hit the progeny button at top). Always loved Buckpasser, myself.
Also sired the TB racing Dutch Derby winner KOKOMO
Here a horse out of a Sit This One Out mare:
http://www.olivierphilippaerts.be/en/show_jumpers/detail/olivier_philippaerts/20070078
[QUOTE=Elles;8339602]
Here a horse out of a Sit This One Out mare:
http://www.olivierphilippaerts.be/en/show_jumpers/detail/olivier_philippaerts/20070078[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. Certainly has a jump.
Out of a TB mare by Sit this one out XX.
And doesn’t seem to be in HorseTelex or Sporthorse Data?
Good find.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8340040]
Hmmm. Certainly has a jump.
Out of a TB mare by Sit this one out XX.
And doesn’t seem to be in HorseTelex or Sporthorse Data?
Good find.[/QUOTE]
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/598961
An Anglo Arabian: http://anglo-araber-zucht-foerste.de.tl/
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10527062&blood=10"a=
[QUOTE=weixiao;8340436]
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/598961[/QUOTE]
Yes, I was completely mislead by the sales ad ‘pedigree’ given.
Thanks!
(couldn’t get on here last night, sorry)
This mare’s produce is interesting:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1265
Her best producing daughters were by the French Anglo-Arab GARITCHOU
Just look at the Stallions and 1.6m jumpers produced from various sires by OPALINE DES PINS !
This stallion is an AES approved stallion in the Netherlands: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10594584
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8341873]
This mare’s produce is interesting:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1265
Her best producing daughters were by the French Anglo-Arab GARITCHOU
Just look at the Stallions and 1.6m jumpers produced from various sires by OPALINE DES PINS ![/QUOTE]
Opaline is one of the best dame of her times, but her best products were not “blood” horses per say. And Garichou was an AA, not a TB or a trotteur. French AA are horses bred for a very long time for sport. They are not the TB X Arab cross most people seems to think they are. They have evolved in a very different horse over the years.
They remain a good source of blood for sport horse breeders, especialy for eventing breeders.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8345038]
Opaline is one of the best dame of her times, but her best products were not “blood” horses per say. And Garichou was an AA, not a TB or a trotteur. French AA are horses bred for a very long time for sport. They are not the TB X Arab cross most people seems to think they are. They have evolved in a very different horse over the years.
They remain a good source of blood for sport horse breeders, especialy for eventing breeders.[/QUOTE]
Irony on … a cross is a cross …Irony off
[QUOTE=Manni01;8345047]
Irony on … a cross is a cross …Irony off[/QUOTE]
Well no, not really. There is a huge difference between a first generation TB x Arab and the product of generations of breeding AA x AA with some slight additions.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8345047]
Irony on … a cross is a cross …Irony off[/QUOTE]
And the cross in question is not exclusively a cross between Arabs and TB. At some points in time, their was also an influx of indigenous french blood in the mix, from the introduction of local mares into the breeding program. So when you look at the AA horse, you will find a horse generally much different in type than your usual Arab TB cross.
Of course here we talk about the sport lines of AA. I believe that some lines were especially bred for racing but I don’t know very much about that aspect. Maybe someone else will have more petinent information on that point.
I’d have no problem riding one of today’s great TBs. I just wouldn’t use them for sport horse breeding.
Wanted to clarify that, while I wouldn’t use a TB for top showjumper or dressage breeding, I would use a couple of TB lines in eventing.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8345038]
Opaline is one of the best dame of her times, but her best products were not “blood” horses per say. And Garichou was an AA, not a TB or a trotteur. French AA are horses bred for a very long time for sport. They are not the TB X Arab cross most people seems to think they are. They have evolved in a very different horse over the years.
They remain a good source of blood for sport horse breeders, especialy for eventing breeders.[/QUOTE]
I did mention that Garitchou was French AA, not TB x Arab.
However, the thread is about light horses as cross in sport, and this mare line is a clear and important line that from recent TB input - Jasmina’s dam Britt traces to Furioso XX, Fra Diavolo XX, Foudroyant II XX in 3 to 5 generations; Jasmina adds Ultimate XX and Orange Peel XX in 4th and 5th generation through her sire.
None of those TBs were ‘bred for’ Sport. I find the fact that so much Race TB blood, used every generation or every other generation, can produce direct and successful breeding offspring in Sport to be significant.
Jasmina’s daughter Pamela Des Pins, by Laudanum XX, also produced, though not so spectacularly.
Opaline produced well with a variety of sires from several bloodlines, this used to be called prepotence and be highly desired in a breeding animal…
…so DESPITE the ‘light horse saturation in the pedigree’ this is a very good bloodline for breeding.
This jumper is actually linebred on Opaline, and happens to be the best horse of Wanita’s foals.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/146897?levels=6
Obourg 1.6m stallion has that kiss-of-death TB tail female, tracing to Frimaire XX born 1953.
He has sired a 1.6m showjumper, ESPYRANTE, whose damsire is out of a TB mare.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1529439
That damsire PAUILLAC DE MEIA LUA managed to sire a 1.6m showjumper, too.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/320043
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8345547]
I did mention that Garitchou was French AA, not TB x Arab.
However, the thread is about light horses as cross in sport, and this mare line is a clear and important line that from recent TB input - Jasmina’s dam Britt traces to Furioso XX, Fra Diavolo XX, Foudroyant II XX in 3 to 5 generations; Jasmina adds Ultimate XX and Orange Peel XX in 4th and 5th generation through her sire.
None of those TBs were ‘bred for’ Sport. I find the fact that so much Race TB blood, used every generation or every other generation, can produce direct and successful breeding offspring in Sport to be significant.
Jasmina’s daughter Pamela Des Pins, by Laudanum XX, also produced, though not so spectacularly.
Opaline produced well with a variety of sires from several bloodlines, this used to be called prepotence and be highly desired in a breeding animal…
…so DESPITE the ‘light horse saturation in the pedigree’ this is a very good bloodline for breeding.[/QUOTE]
You were right on Garichou. The only point I was trying to make in my post is that all “light horses” should not be placed in the same basket for the sake of this discussion. I think you will find no one to say that, above the “light type”, blood is not really important in modern sport horse breeding. However we should not limit the reflexion on “blood horse, good or bad”. The discussion would be more interesting if we were discussing which blood, how to bring it in and with an horizon of how many generations. To me, using a TB and using an AA is not necessarly equivalent, and is not equivalent with using a modern WB full of blood (and by that, I do not necessarly means with a lot of TB in its pedigree). Crossing with a TB in the hope of obtaining a sport horse is not the same as using a TB to produce a broodmare. TB stallions over a good dame line is not necessarily the equivalent of using a great stallion on a TB mare. We can also ask ourselves if the traditionnal TB is still the best way to introduce blood into our breeding program.
Thank you for the well thought out post.
For what it is worth, I would be happy with a ‘maybe’ answer to that question; it has been some time since I have seen even that much of an open mind on the board.
I have less problem with a TB mare -or stallion- that is a proven Sport performer at the higher levels being used as a broodmare or sire than I do with a non-performer of any breed or registry being bred from.
It is a prejudice; and there have been many good horses from that plan, I will admit. Just a difference of opinion.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8345683]
Thank you for the well thought out post.
For what it is worth, I would be happy with a ‘maybe’ answer to that question; it has been some time since I have seen even that much of an open mind on the board.
I have less problem with a TB mare -or stallion- that is a proven Sport performer at the higher levels being used as a broodmare or sire than I do with a non-performer of any breed or registry being bred from.
It is a prejudice; and there have been many good horses from that plan, I will admit. Just a difference of opinion.[/QUOTE]
I had to go back to first page to remember what was the original question! But to answer the original question, the importance of “blood horses” is much greater than only to lighten up the type. Blood in a horse is about stamina, reactiveness, quickness in the reflexes and competitivness. In my opinion, these are all aspects necessary in a succesfull sport horse. When looking for a blood horse, I think breeders are not looking to improve strenght or scope. This would already present in the WB population with much greater regularity.
Now about how exactly to add blood in a breeding progam, this question has sparked some very heated discussions on that board. In my own opinion, I think the impact of the classical blood horses (here I refer to TB) can be measured in terms of generations. I would not breed to a TB stallion hoping for a good sport horse. Why? This opinion has caused wars in the past but I will say it nontheless: Although good TB have brought very important qualities listed above, the products GENERALLY lack in strenght, scope and very important athletic capacities. So I think those blood horses have the best impact in a pedigree as dame sires or great dame sires, over a good dame line.
Does someone understand what the conclusion is please:
http://asp.zut.edu.pl/2015/14_1/ASP14(1)2015_77_90.pdf
Thanks!
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