This discussion has been going on quite a bit in Europe the last few weeks (months/years) but fitting this letter came out in the Racing Post on the day the U.S. Jockey Club released its report of mares bred with Uncle Mo breeding 253 mares during the northern hemisphere season (possibly a record for a U.S. stallion).
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/letter-limiting-stallion-books-the-way-to-go/2178736/top/
But the next was Into Mischief at 218 so, IMO, quite a drop.
Not sure how they were pulling of 253.
What would you limit it to?
We had a different “advantage” over Europe that the size of our country is much larger than Europe so a bit of a detractor in moving mares around to different states/stallions.
I also think it is a “positive” that there were overall fewer mares bred and not just at the low end, but also the high end.
Limiting may not even be required.
I don’t have a lot to add to the subject other than that I can’t think of a single reason why limiting books to something like 150, like the author of the letter proposes, would be a bad thing.
But whoo-ee… 253… how does a stallion even do that? That has to take its toll on a horse if he were to maintain those numbers year after year.
Even 218 (and the high 100s) is pretty crazy . There’s no reason a book couldn’t be limited to 150, imo it would help the breed and the breeders. Not even looking at the breed factor, having a stallion breed 200+ mares (or even 150+) hurts breeders looking to sell (a large group in the US) because at least half of those will go into the market, which lowers the price for all of them collectively (other than maybe your $1-million+ babies).
I actually really like Claiborne’s way of handling books - even if farms had a little higher numbers (this info straight from Bernie Sams, I talked to him about this topic recently). They let their stallions breeders around 120 or so in the first few years so they have the numbers to compete with the young stallions on other farms breeding those 160+ mares then they cut them back to around 100 - 110 (War Front bred 111 this year) and as the stallions get older, they pay attention to their needs and may cut them back even farther if they don’t handle the work load well.
I also think that limiting books is healthier for the stallions, which overall could work out better for the farms because the stallions will probably last longer than if they’re breeding the huge numbers every year.
Really, I don’t see many downsides to limiting books to a reasonable number (dropping to 40-50 for example would be crazy but I’d have no problem with 150 or even a little lower).
It is too bad Man O’ War wasn’t bred to more mares.
But, “according to stories,” the stallion had an idiot hard-headed, rich-a$$hat of an owner, who knew little of the reality of racing, much less the breeding of TBs.
But just ‘Lucked-in, with a great racehorse, first-time out.’
Same ol’, same ol’ <smfh>
But whoo-ee… 253… how does a stallion even do that? That has to take its toll on a horse if he were to maintain those numbers year after year.
Used to be that a stallion would cover a mare 2 or 3 times to ensure she caught. Now, the mare is carefully monitored for optimum time of conception and so the stallion usually only has to cover her once. So the stallion does the same work on more mares.
Coolmore National Hunt stallion Leading Light covered 320 mares in his first season last year, followed by Ocovango covering 310.
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/leading-light-covers-book-of-320-mares/1961351/top/
Poor Alydar bred over two hundred a year…
Alydar sired 707 foals from 11 crops. An average of 64 foals per crop.
Without digging out some old reference books I am sure he never covered over 200 mare in one season, let alone as his “normal book”.
77 stakes winners (10.9%), 46 group/graded stakes winners an exceptional 6.5%, and 21 Group 1 or Grade 1 winners.
It wasn’t in “vogue” at the time.
[QUOTE=CFFarm;8914042]
Poor Alydar bred over two hundred a year…[/QUOTE]
Alydar sired 707 foals from 11 crops. An average of 64 foals per crop.
Without digging out some old reference books I am sure he never covered over 200 mares in one season, let alone as his “normal book”. It wasn’t in “vogue” at the time.
Sire of 77 stakes winners (10.9%), 46 group/graded stakes winners an exceptional 6.5%, and 21 Group 1 or Grade 1 winners.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8914147]
Alydar sired 707 foals from 11 crops. An average of 64 foals per crop.
Without digging out some old reference books I am sure he never covered over 200 mares in one season, let alone as his “normal book”. It wasn’t in “vogue” at the time.
Sire of 77 stakes winners (10.9%), 46 group/graded stakes winners an exceptional 6.5%, and 21 Group 1 or Grade 1 winners.[/QUOTE]
I wish I hadn’t loaned out Wild Ride, it has his crop size for at least a few of the years and it was never anywhere close to 200 mares. I don’t even think he hit 100 when he was being used as an ATM machine (attempted ATM machine is probably a better description).
[QUOTE=gotpaints;8914158]
I wish I hadn’t loaned out Wild Ride, it has his crop size for at least a few of the years and it was never anywhere close to 200 mares. I don’t even think he hit 100 when he was being used as an ATM machine (attempted ATM machine is probably a better description).[/QUOTE]
A Wild Ride is a good read but it takes a LOT of liberties with the “facts”. I promise you. I think it would be fair to say without going into details that I was reasonably “close”, on what was going on BEFORE the “news” hit the streets of Lexington.
As to his death a very good friend of mine was the first insurance adjuster on the scene. As far as I am concerned and others in the “know” it was a freak accident. Because of this and the financial struggles I completely understand why “conjecture” runs rampant.
JT was a very good horsemen but not a very good businessmen.He was not a Lexington “insider” either. People took advantage of this. He relied way too much on the advice of 2 people that seem to come out of nowhere. These 2 guys lined their pockets and walked away unscratched. There were a number of people to “blame”. JT took the “hit” for all by and large.
Hope this doesn’t sidetrack the thread.
As to large book, stallions fees a good friend Dan Rosenburg who was general manager for years at Three Chimney’s. The person who put the place on the map IMO said it best a number of years ago.
Not an exact quote.
“We don’t (syndicate mangers, stallion farms) set the market, the market (breeders) set the market, price and demand”
The modern day business of(starting by and large in the 70s) of standing stallions has always been tricky. But now more than ever it is risky and expensive. At least in the past the “market” was reasonably “forgiving”, realistic. Because market breeders, breeders in general had a sound understanding of how things work and the time needed to really get a handle on who is, or has a realistic chance of “making” it.
In the last 10 years or so this has completely changed. If a stallion starts out with decent “numbers”, “talking horses” with its first crop of 2 year olds breeders will continue to support the horse. It those 2 years don’t really show talent in numbers by the end of their 3 year old season. That, those stallions are sent packing to the hinterland.
Stallion manager, syndicate mangers have to make a LOT of hay when the sun is shinning with the first couple of crops.
I suppose one could say this falls under who came first, the chicken or the egg?
I’ve known Bernie for years and years. Don’t believe everything that comes out of his mouth as gospel. “Just because he works, is the gate keeper at Claiborne doesn’t mean he sits on the right hand side of god. Even though he may think so” A quote from some of those in the industry. No disrespect to Bernie intended.
Stallion managers by and large are a bit full of themselves. They seem to think they are doing those of us a “favor” who are writing the check. Absurd, they are pretty much guaranteed to get paid. Where as a lot of the breeders, the people who are paying a lot of money to “prove” out their stallions are guaranteed nothing. Except having to pay a lot of expenses and if we are lucky maybe get all or most of those expenses back but little to no gravy.
Stallion farm seem to think they take all of the risk. Nonsense, the rule of thumb is it cost around $35,000 not including stud fee to breed, raise and take the resulting foal to auction. So if a stallion gets 200 foals in a season that cost the breeders over $7,000,000 collectively in basic expenses.
As my accountant said years ago. No one in their right mind would have anything to do with this “business”, lol. Except for service providers, which is what Stallion farms are.
Money and greed fuels everything; including these insane books of mares for Uncle Mo and the Coolmore stallions. Trying to make the biggest profit initially off of stallions. No one really cares about their quality of health in 10 years or how books like this affect quality of health moving forward. They are doing no favor to the horse or to the breed. When you don’t have a crop of 300+ foals from one stallion; demand is reflected in prices at the sales: averages on a foal crop increase as a whole; especially if the stallion is proving himself. When you have 300+ foals from a single stallion flooding a sale market; price averages for stallion foal crops decrease (unless your the freak Tapit).
By the time these juvenile 300+ book stallions prove themselves as mediocre; the stallion owners could care less as they’ve already multiplied their profit insanely. They can still make a pretty profit moving forward standing a now proven mediocre stallion for a lesser book of mares and at a reduced stallion fee.
Or they offer a solid (not great) proven stallion for an unlimited amount of mares every season at a “good deal” and the stallions get 300+ mares covered. The profit is a win-win from a money standpoint.
I, too, do not understand how anyone thinks these stallions can handle this health-wise long term. And we wonder why stallions are suffering from “infirmities of old age” at the grand old age of 18 - 24 years old; when they shouldn’t be,
[QUOTE=gumtree;8914341]
As to his death a very good friend of mine was the first insurance adjuster on the scene. As far as I am concerned and others in the “know” it was a freak accident. Because of this and the financial struggles I completely understand why “conjecture” runs rampant.[/QUOTE]
gumtree, thanks for posting this. I read Wild Ride (and yes, from the book perspective it certainly was a ‘wild ride’).
Hard when you are a neophyte outsider to know how much of what you read is “true” vs liberties taken with the truth because it makes the story ‘better’.
It would have been such as shame to purposefully break his leg and have him go through surgery. Still not easy to go through surgery but freak accidents, while sometimes hard to understand, just happen sometimes.
It’s interesting you posted this today (it really is interesting, not saying that in a sarcastic way) because I actually just had a talk after Nyquist’s fee was announced with a bigger breeder (has two horses he bred in the Breeders’ Cup with both being well regarded) and he said that the stallion farms these days are good at ignoring the market and what their stallions’ non-standout yearlings are selling for when setting fees.
Even though the quote is older it’s interesting hearing what one side says vs. another. I spend a lot of time picking breeders’ (and other racing industry pros) brains because of the interesting tidbits.
As to the Bernie Samms part, others at Claiborne have said the same thing about how they handle books (including the “real” bosses) so it’s not just him saying it.
Question: I’ve just finished Wild Ride about Calumet and Alydar, and the author states several times that normal procedure required breeding a mare at least twice and sometimes three times to the stallion.
If that is no longer the case, and with such huge books it doesn’t seem possible that it could be, has the TB industry gone to some form of assisted reproduction that can qualify as live cover? If it is still the case that mares must be bred more than once to get a foal, how can a stud possibly breed, not just 253 mares, but those mares multiple times? I wouldn’t think that any animal of any kind could produce enough sperm to cover six or more orgasms per day, every single day for four months.
Willesdon has addressed this. So does the mare stay at the stallion station until the 14th day when she is ultrasounded for the black dot? Given the rather low fertility of TB reproduction, one would think that multiple breeding of the same mare would still be necessary.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8914645]
Question: I’ve just finished Wild Ride about Calumet and Alydar, and the author states several times that normal procedure required breeding a mare at least twice and sometimes three times to the stallion.
If that is no longer the case, and with such huge books it doesn’t seem possible that it could be, has the TB industry gone to some form of assisted reproduction that can qualify as live cover? If it is still the case that mares must be bred more than once to get a foal, how can a stud possibly breed, not just 253 mares, but those mares multiple times? I wouldn’t think that any animal of any kind could produce enough sperm to cover six or more orgasms per day, every single day for four months.
Willesdon has addressed this. So does the mare stay at the stallion station until the 14th day when she is ultrasounded for the black dot? Given the rather low fertility of TB reproduction, one would think that multiple breeding of the same mare would still be necessary.[/QUOTE]
When Alydar was standing at stud, broodmare managers were relying on teasers to indicate when was the best time to a breed a mare. Sometimes that worked great, sometimes it didn’t. With current advances in veterinary science, we can tell to the day (if not the hour) when ovulation will occur, and 1 cover has become the norm rather than the exception. Most central Kentucky farms breed their stallions 2-3 times a day (assuming they are booked that often). I’ve never heard of a stallion covering 6 mares in a day even once, much less for 4 months straight.
Some farms add a booster dose of sperm right after the mare has been bred–it usually comes from the dismount sample–which doesn’t violate JC live-cover rules. Also, most stud farms are constantly monitoring sperm quality and the sexual health of their stallions. The mares that visit them are generally reproductively healthier as well. It’s a whole different system now.
Also in central KY, the stallions and mares aren’t that far apart. If she’s due to be bred, her appt is made, she’s packed onto the van, covered and back home before the stallion’s feet are back on the ground. 
She’ll get checked at 14 days but at her home, not at the “stallion station”.
It is still JC legal live cover, but it’s also a very exacting science now with very little hit or miss.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8914645]
Question: I’ve just finished Wild Ride about Calumet and Alydar, and the author states several times that normal procedure required breeding a mare at least twice and sometimes three times to the stallion.
If that is no longer the case, and with such huge books it doesn’t seem possible that it could be, has the TB industry gone to some form of assisted reproduction that can qualify as live cover? If it is still the case that mares must be bred more than once to get a foal, how can a stud possibly breed, not just 253 mares, but those mares multiple times? I wouldn’t think that any animal of any kind could produce enough sperm to cover six or more orgasms per day, every single day for four months.
Willesdon has addressed this. So does the mare stay at the stallion station until the 14th day when she is ultrasounded for the black dot? Given the rather low fertility of TB reproduction, one would think that multiple breeding of the same mare would still be necessary.[/QUOTE]
(Excuse me if all of this has been said before, I wanted to type this response to your questions while my thoughts were fresh in my mind)
Some mares have to return more than once throughout the season. I took 4 or 5 to the shed multiple times this year and was there for pregnancy checks on a few others who had to go back because they didn’t catch. Some mares either the first time or when they come back also get part of the dismount sample right after the breeding. All mares have to be covered live but all the sperm she gets from the breeding doesn’t have to be from the actual cover (he does have to ejaculate during the mounting of the mare in the shed though). Modern reproduction techniques make it Uncle Mo didn’t have to cover all those 253 mares multiple times but at least some of them returned to the shed at least one more time, if not multiple times. It’s doubtful there was ever a day he bred six mares. Coolmore has three main breeding sessions, though if needed they’ll have someone come in late at night if she needs to be bred (I’ve been there at 10p.m., which isn’t one of the super normal sessions, for example).
Some mares are boarded at the farm where they’ll be bred (obviously at a different division than the stallion complex) and others ship in either from where they live permanently at farms nearby or where they ship for a few weeks/months while they’re breed. It was about a 40-45 minute van ride max to any of the farms we took mares to but we’re in Paris so it’s a bit farther out there than if we were located closer to Lexington.
Here is an interesting link on the subject.
https://www.racingvalue.com/letter-limiting-stallion-books-the-way-to-go/
I personally think that the industry, already at the margins of self destruction, would be foolish to limit driving market forces by limited books. I understand the other arguments in favor of breed genetic diversity, but clearly the breed is decades beyond repair, if that is truly problematic for future progeny. Some studies report inbreeding is not troublesome currently for the breed. I think the biggest problem for the industry is finding a nationwide economic balance in and across the racing, breeding, and sales sectors. Unlikely to happen though as long as leadership and investment is monopolized in KY. KY may be horse racing’s biggest enemy. Actually KY might be it’s own worst enemy also. A national industry requires shared opportunity. The 2016 mares bred report clearly shows KY monopolizing breeding and it’s no reach to include the sales sector.
