Limiting Stallions' Books

[Texarkana]

Re: boarding mares on site. Most KY farms house their stallions separate from their mares entirely, either a different section of the property or a different parcel of land with a different address. So mares are vanning back and forth to the stallion even if they are boarded “on site,” which is different than most other breeds. As others have said, everything is so centralized in KY it’s not a big deal. There are only about a billion places to board a mare within a short drive of all the major farms.

Outside of KY in other states, most farms are all on one plot of land- it’s less likely to have to van the mares to the shed just for breeding, it’s more a matter of pulling them out of the pasture and walking to the shed. With the exception of a few regional epicenters (Ocala, for example), the different breeding farms are separated by a lot of distance. So mares are more likely to be boarded at the farm with the stallion unless they happen to reside nearby.

Even with reproductive advances, 253 is a huge number to appreciate. I find it funny that anyone can dismiss it as merely improved technology. Most farms are not at that point. Then again, most farms don’t go to the shed 3+ times a day. I’ve been at Ashford when the line is around the block just because of the volume of mares their stallions cover.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8915282]

Even with reproductive advances, 253 is a huge number to appreciate. I find it funny that anyone can dismiss it as merely improved technology. Most farms are not at that point. Then again, most farms don’t go to the shed 3+ times a day. I’ve been at Ashford when the line is around the block just because of the volume of mares their stallions cover.[/QUOTE]

Sure 253 is a huge number. But if improved vet care/technology (which has changed tremendously since the late 1980s when Alydar stood at stud) isn’t making the difference, to what do you attribute the ability for one stallion to impregnate that many mares in a season? Viney asked if breeders have gone to “some form of assisted reproduction” in her post which sounds to me like the A.I. question (yet again). Is there what you’re implying as well?

Stallions are big business in central KY and every farm that stands them utilizes all the latest reproductive tools. And every farm I can think of except one, has at least 3 breeding sessions a day. There are 120 days in the breeding season which multiplies out to more than enough chances for 253 mares to be bred by a busy and popular horse.

As for the line around the block at Ashford, that has less to do with the volume of mares they cover than with the number of stallions they stand. Each horse only covers one mare per session. There are even longer lines at Spendthrift and WinStar these days.

If my explanation sounds “funny” to you, I’d be interested in hearing yours.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8915449]

If my explanation sounds “funny” to you, I’d be interested in hearing yours.[/QUOTE]

As someone I have the utmost respect for, I don’t understand the rudeness.

I think 253 is a big number, regardless of improved breeding practices. I think Ashford handles a large volume of mares. No implication. What argument is there to pick in that?

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8915466]
As someone I have the utmost respect for, I don’t understand the rudeness.

I think 253 is a big number, regardless of improved breeding practices. I think Ashford handles a large volume of mares. No implication. What argument is there to pick in that?[/QUOTE]

Mea culpa. I feel the same about you and I wasn’t trying to pick an argument.

But my question still stands with reference to what you said earlier:

I find it funny that anyone can dismiss it as merely improved technology. Most farms are not at that point.

If it is not advances in vet care and technology that are allowing stallions to successfully cover more mares now than they did 40 years ago (Alydar’s era) to what do you attribute the difference?

[vineyridge]

How do they get the “dismount sample”? And just what is it?

[Shammy_Davis]

I recalled this 2008 article and just found it. All in the same vain, so to speak.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/breeding-economics/?_r=0

And Australasian thoughts on practicality as it relates to the Standardbred.

https://b4breeding.com/2013/04/21/limiting-sires-books/

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8915692]
Mea culpa. I feel the same about you and I wasn’t trying to pick an argument.

But my question still stands with reference to what you said earlier:

If it is not advances in vet care and technology that are allowing stallions to successfully cover more mares now than they did 40 years ago (Alydar’s era) to what do you attribute the difference?[/QUOTE]

For starters, can you clarify why you think I’m comparing 253 to Alydar and others of his era? I never once mentioned Alydar.

Only a select few farms are pushing for these 200+ numbers. And I think it’s just that: pushing. Our current veterinary practices make the 100s a very regular occurrence. But to make a BIG number like 253, it is not just because we have higher success rate on the first cover. Even if every mare was only bred once, with the short ~120 day breeding season for TBs, that’s averaging over 2 mares a day every. single. day. And while I know YOU know this, but there is no way every single one of those 253 mares had only one cover.

My point is that it is a stallion management decision to go after those big numbers.

I was much too young in Alydar’s era to comment on thoroughbred breeding practices. But in my adult lifetime, I feel like the number of trips to the shed has increased for the average stallion (independent of book size). Maybe that is an incorrect perception. For me 15 years ago, it seemed two breedings a day was standard, maybe three at the busiest times. Now, three or more trips a day seems to be the norm for popular stallions at farms with big numbers.

What is your take on that?

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8915449]
As for the line around the block at Ashford, that has less to do with the volume of mares they cover than with the number of stallions they stand. Each horse only covers one mare per session. There are even longer lines at Spendthrift and WinStar these days.[/QUOTE]

I suspect rolled into the number of stallions they stand, it’s also the quality of the stallions they’re standing that contribute to the “line”.

@Texarkana;8915865

For me 15 years ago, it seemed two breedings a day was standard, maybe three at the busiest times. Now, three or more trips a day seems to be the norm for popular stallions at farms with big numbers.

An idle curiosity question. I’ve read that in the wild, stallions are fairly good at knowing when to breed their mares. I’ve also read that the mares will also cycle at about the same time. How many mares/day would a stallion in the wild be covering (realistically)?

Yes, in the above scenario, he would be getting a “rest” when the mares are between cycles… is this rest enough?

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8915760]
How do they get the “dismount sample”? And just what is it?[/QUOTE]

Ejaculate that is released after dismount, either out of the vulva of mare or the stallion himself.

How they collect it depends on what they are using it for. If they are just using it to check motility, they’ll take it from wherever. If they are inseminating with it, it will be collected cleanly the moment after the stallion finishes. Not using an AV or anything like they would when collecting for AI, but usually in a sterile cup so it can be syringed back into the mare.

[Unfforgettable]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8915760]
How do they get the “dismount sample”? And just what is it?[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering the same thing…wouldn’t that be mainly just gel fraction? That’s what they taught us at Colorado State…nothing of value in the last portion of ejaculate.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Unfforgettable;8915892]
I’m wondering the same thing…wouldn’t that be mainly just gel fraction? That’s what they taught us at Colorado State…nothing of value in the last portion of ejaculate.[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that what the mare expels from her vulva can be significant. If collected cleanly, it can be placed back into the uterus.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8915760]
How do they get the “dismount sample”? And just what is it?[/QUOTE]

Basically as he dismounts, someone has a cup or something similar and gets whatever is still being ejaculated (not sure if ejaculated is the right word for that phase of the breeding process) at the time. I’ve never noticed them collect it from the mare, only the stallion post-breeding and I’ve watched some mares expel what looks like quite a bit without it being collected. All big sheds in Kentucky (or at least a huge number of the big farms) have a vet in the shed. From what I’ve been told by some of the vets when I asked, some farms put extender in it to give it a little extra boost if the stallion has a lower count or the mare has issues. I’m sure Laurie and others can probably explain it better than me.

As for the number of times breeding sheds are open a day, three and even four times a day seems quite regular. First breeding session is usually around 7 or 8, depending on the farm, then around 1pm and 6-7p.m. At two Kentucky farms, I’ve been there for well over an hour before my mare was bred before because they just have so many stallions (like said by a few others, each stallion just breeds once a session).

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8915955]

As for the number of times breeding sheds are open a day, three and even four times a day seems quite regular. First breeding session is usually around 7 or 8, depending on the farm, then around 1pm and 6-7p.m. At two Kentucky farms, I’ve been there for well over an hour before my mare was bred before because they just have so many stallions (like said by a few others, each stallion just breeds once a session).[/QUOTE]

That is exactly my experience.

But 15ish years ago, I don’t ever recall having a midday option. Morning and evening, that was it. Maybe it was just the farms with which we were patronizing, or maybe it was my own ignorance at the time. I also remember a whole lot more dark days.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8915996]
That is exactly my experience.

But 15ish years ago, I don’t ever recall having a midday option. Morning and evening, that was it. Maybe it was just the farms with which we were patronizing, or maybe it was my own ignorance at the time. I also remember a whole lot more dark days.[/QUOTE]

The only “semi dark days” there seem to be these days are Oaks and Derby day. When I was at WinStar on Oaks day this year, there were signs all over the place saying the shed wasn’t having the third breeding session unless absolutely needed. I think they were closing at 3pm on Oaks day and 1pm on Derby day. Was funny to see that since it seemed a lot like when a store closes early because of Thanksgiving or Christmas eve.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I saw today in a BH article about Spendthrift releasing 2017 fees that in KY alone they stand 26 stallions including Malibu Moon and Into Mischief. That will take coordination to manage all the mares in and out of the breeding shed (regardless of where the mares live ).

[gotpaints]

That’s actually smaller than their roster last year when they had 28 or 29. The good thing about Spendthrift is that they have two sheds and are efficient at getting the mares through the prep process before heading into the actual shed. The only bad part is when their stallions decide to romance a mare for a while before breeding or when the new guys can’t figure out the whole breeding thing (which happens in every shed).

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8916386]
when the new guys can’t figure out the whole breeding thing (which happens in every shed).[/QUOTE]

Of which reminds me of a funny of the reverse kind. Many many years ago took a half day tour and we did stop at some farm breeding shed (don’t remember which farm… maybe Winstar?).

Didn’t see a breeding (although it was during Rolex so yes, the right time of year, just wrong time of day). Anyway…

Whichever farm it was brought in the first stallion and he definitely had a ho-hum attitude (he’d looked at his watch and knew it wasn’t gonna be happening right then).

Brought in the second stallion who was in his first season. He walked in and and two things to this day stuck in my mind. One of the other women on the tour “oh my, he is a stallion” and his expression as he looked around with a “but, but, where is she???”

:lol:

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8916525]
Of which reminds me of a funny of the reverse kind. Many many years ago took a half day tour and we did stop at some farm breeding shed (don’t remember which farm… maybe Winstar?).

Didn’t see a breeding (although it was during Rolex so yes, the right time of year, just wrong time of day). Anyway…

Whichever farm it was brought in the first stallion and he definitely had a ho-hum attitude (he’d looked at his watch and knew it wasn’t gonna be happening right then).

Brought in the second stallion who was in his first season. He walked in and and two things to this day stuck in my mind. One of the other women on the tour “oh my, he is a stallion” and his expression as he looked around with a “but, but, where is she???”

:lol:[/QUOTE]

I was at an open house once and a group of kids (I’m guessing 4-H or something similar) was also there. A very well-known stallion came out to the showing area and let us all know he is very fertile and has an excellent libido . Parents were covering eyes all over the place. I’d hate to be in that car on the ride home explaining that.

[Shammy_Davis]

It is hard to follow this thread without wondering what is the quality of the mares that these upscale stallions are servicing? With a currently shrinking broodmare population is success based on the sperm or the egg or is this rolling the dice? You can speak to technology and science all you want but live cover is inefficient and costly. AI on the other hand is too efficient. Though I prefer market forces driving the industry, it is apparent that these large books to highly advertised upscale studs based on inflated expectations is poor breeding management. The number of syndicated stallions is small compared to the population of stallions standing nationally. There is plenty of value to be found at the plus or minus $10K level. The question is where is the mare support at this level. I am old enough to remember Bold Ruler servicing 40 mares and thinking that was a good size book. I recall J T Lundy being criticize for his greedy mismanagement of Alydar, but the thought of 235 mares to one stallion today definitely sends shivers up my spine. At some point these upscale stud farms are going to have to rein themselves in for the good of the breed. Big books are a representation of the sales sector promoting inflated values based on pedigrees with inflated expectations.

[vineyridge]

If ejaculate is expelled from the vulva, treated with extender and injected directly into the uterus, that’s about as close to artificial insemination as you can get.