Limiting Stallions' Books

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8916781]
If ejaculate is expelled from the vulva, treated with extender and injected directly into the uterus, that’s about as close to artificial insemination as you can get.[/QUOTE]

It’s literally replacing “dribble” the stallion already deposited. As the stallion is removing himself from the mare, they put a cup underneath to collect what may have been otherwise lost as he dismounts, hence the name.

I don’t disagree that it is very similar to artificial insemination, but the stallion is still doing the deed himself. It’s more a matter of making sure everything possible makes it into the mare.

This is becoming rather pornographic.

[On_the_Farm]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8916649]
I was at an open house once and a group of kids (I’m guessing 4-H or something similar) was also there. A very well-known stallion came out to the showing area and let us all know he is very fertile and has an excellent libido . Parents were covering eyes all over the place. I’d hate to be in that car on the ride home explaining that.[/QUOTE]

That’s along the lines of the time we had a third grade class show up for a tour just as the vet delivered the tranq to the first of three to be gelded that morning. My manager freaked but I thought it would be a good lesson in multiplication tables…“OK class, 3 x 2 = how many?”

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8916781]
If ejaculate is expelled from the vulva, treated with extender and injected directly into the uterus, that’s about as close to artificial insemination as you can get.[/QUOTE]
It’s similar to AI except it’s collected from the stallion as he dismounts so he’s still done the deed (like I said earlier, I’ve never seen farms collect anything the mare expels, only the stallion and I’ve seen a lot of mares bred over the last few years). As long as the stallion does the covering and breeding himself, the post-breeding procedure falls within the rules (to clarify, it doesn’t happen with every breeding).

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8917029]
It’s similar to AI except it’s collected from the stallion as he dismounts so he’s still done the deed (like I said earlier, I’ve never seen farms collect anything the mare expels, only the stallion and I’ve seen a lot of mares bred over the last few years). As long as the stallion does the covering and breeding himself, the post-breeding procedure falls within the rules (to clarify, it doesn’t happen with every breeding).[/QUOTE]

is there anything to prevent them from aggregating several post dismount samples, using extender on them, and injecting that into multiple uteri? As long as the stallion mounted each of the mares and ejaculated?

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8917568]
is there anything to prevent them from aggregating several post dismount samples, using extender on them, and injecting that into multiple uteri? As long as the stallion mounted each of the mares and ejaculated?[/QUOTE]

Probably not since no one outside of employees is usually in the vet’s room with the vet (a lot of the rooms are pretty visible though since they have big windows looking into the shed(s)). I’m not actually sure how that’d go over with mare owners or The Jockey Club though. I’d assume that may break the rules since it wouldn’t be sperm from the actual breeding to that mare though.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8917634]
Probably not since no one outside of employees is usually in the vet’s room with the vet (a lot of the rooms are pretty visible though since they have big windows looking into the shed(s)). I’m not actually sure how that’d go over with mare owners or The Jockey Club though. I’d assume that may break the rules since it wouldn’t be sperm from the actual breeding to that mare though.[/QUOTE]

What you are discussing is called reinforcement breeding. Don’t think the stallion or mare has anything to worry about with the JC.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/reinforcement-breeding-ensuring-mares-are-successfully-bred

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8917872]
What you are discussing is called reinforcement breeding. Don’t think the stallion or mare has anything to worry about with the JC.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/reinforcement-breeding-ensuring-mares-are-successfully-bred[/QUOTE]
I think you missed the part where she asked if they could use sperm from other covers, which in my understanding of the rule is a “no.” (It also wouldn’t be considered just a reinforcement breeding anymore because the sperm wouldn’t be from that cover).

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8917880]
I think you missed the part where she asked if they could use sperm from other covers, which in my understanding of the rule is a “no.” (It also wouldn’t be considered just a reinforcement breeding anymore because the sperm wouldn’t be from that cover).[/QUOTE]

Aggregating? Caught that on the second read. I guess it wouldn’t be reinforcement. Fraud is a better term.

[On_the_Farm]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8917568]
is there anything to prevent them from aggregating several post dismount samples, using extender on them, and injecting that into multiple uteri? As long as the stallion mounted each of the mares and ejaculated?[/QUOTE]

Yes. the JC rules; that is if you want to register the foal. Section D. https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?page=tjcRuleBook#one

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8915092]
Here is an interesting link on the subject.

https://www.racingvalue.com/letter-limiting-stallion-books-the-way-to-go/

I personally think that the industry, already at the margins of self destruction, would be foolish to limit driving market forces by limited books. I understand the other arguments in favor of breed genetic diversity, but clearly the breed is decades beyond repair, if that is truly problematic for future progeny… The 2016 mares bred report clearly shows KY monopolizing breeding and it’s no reach to include the sales sector.[/QUOTE]

Shammy, I read the linked letter with interest (sorry I had to cut your quote short to make this work on my old tablet.)

I agree that the horse is probably out of the barn in terms of limiting books. I think it is somewhat unfortunate that the market is more driven by sales now (who doesn’t want to breed a good race horse…)

Interestingly, Uncle Mo at the top is resurrecting the Caro sire line – only 28 stallions from that line covered a total of 960 mares in 2016. It is informative to look at the breakdown of mares bred by sireline:

http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/articles/reports-of-mares-bred-2016-most-demanded-sires-and-their-lines-in-this-years-stud-season-in-north-america

[halo]

All I know is I wouldnt want to own one of those over 200 Uncle Mo yearlings in the 2018 Keeneland Yearling Sale.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Assuming all 2016 covers make it that far…

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=halo;8923359]
All I know is I wouldnt want to own one of those over 200 Uncle Mo yearlings in the 2018 Keeneland Yearling Sale.[/QUOTE]

That was my exact thought when I saw the numbers. The yearling sales that year are going to be Uncle Mo showcases … and possibly not a good kind of showcase.

[Where_sMyWhite]

But there won’t be 200 Uncle Mo’s in the sales ring in 2 years. Just the cream of the crop…

[Where_sMyWhite]

Just saw Tapit’s fee will stay at $300K for 2017 but Gainesway will be limiting his book to 125 mares, down from 135 this year (2016) to help protect the MO’s investment which I do think has merit.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8924244]
But there won’t be 200 Uncle Mo’s in the sales ring in 2 years. Just the cream of the crop…[/QUOTE]

Not only the cream of the crop. There are a lot of Books worth of horses in Keeneland September where a lot will appear. Not to mention Fasig sales, ect. There will be a lot of Uncle Mos selling all over the place.

[Where_sMyWhite]

This I would agree… many of little Uncle Mo’s running around

Which led me to an interesting thought (since there are people here who are in the business)…

Would you choose to spend a higher fee for a “better” (yes, subjective) stallion with an unlimited boor or a lower fee for perhaps not as quality stallion who has a limited book size?

i.e. pay big bucks for a Uncle Mo knowing there might be 150+ other Uncle Mo’s on the ground when your’s is or, I dunno, maybe a Tapit who costs more but you know that there will be 124 or less baby Tapit’s on the ground?

Yes, you might not like Tapit or whatever but more curious about if the choice was pricier/better/closed book vs less costly/not quite as nice/open book, how much would the closed/limited book influence your decision?

[halo]

I think Gainesway is absolutely on the ball limiting Tapits book to 125. He will continue to have million dollar yearlings, as will War Front, who also breeds a limited book.

Uncle Mo? I dont know, I think the only one really benefitting here is the stud farm. Being one of 200 yearlings by the same stallion, there sure isnt much incentive to bid big bucks on a yearling, when you know another 100 will be coming behind. I do have to wonder what the mare owners who bred their mares to Uncle Mo thought when they saw he bred over 250 mares.

[halo]

People arent breeding to Uncle Mo to have a pony in their backyard. 95% of breeders are market breeders. They are breeding to him to send a yearling (or weanling) to market.

[halo]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8924244]
But there won’t be 200 Uncle Mo’s in the sales ring in 2 years. Just the cream of the crop…[/QUOTE]

People arent breeding to Uncle Mo to have a pony in their backyard. 95% of breeders are market breeders. They are breeding to him to send a yearling (or weanling) to market.