Limiting Stallions' Books

[Where_sMyWhite]

Rhetorical question as it seems we are a bit in the weeds here

If horses were raced longer before retiring to the shed, would racing really be a healthier industry? IMO, no.

True, maybe now more than in the past the “industry” is breeding vs racing but racing in of itself is a bit of a dying industry The betting public is drawn to shinier objects that are easier to obtain with less work. Good handicapping isn’t easy although with online betting such as BetFair, TVG, NJBets (I think it is), there is an attempt to make betting as accessible as possible…

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8934903]
Rhetorical question as it seems we are a bit in the weeds here

If horses were raced longer before retiring to the shed, would racing really be a healthier industry? IMO, no.

True, maybe now more than in the past the “industry” is breeding vs racing but racing in of itself is a bit of a dying industry . . .[/QUOTE]

The truth be told, historically colts were retired to stud at 2, 3, or 4. No arguing that. Just not in the numbers that we have been seeing in last half century as commercial breeding vs breed to race has accelerated. So, will modifications in breeding strategy change the face of racing? Probably not. Studies show there has to be an economic balance between the three sectors (racing, breeding, & sales) to sustain the national industry. Sadly, as, Vineyridge points out, breeding and the few sales venues that have dominated the seasonal auctions located primarily in KY have monopolized and tilted the balance. To paraphrase Jim Squires in his book HEADLESS HORSEMEN: Horse racing leadership would learn a great deal about themselves and their organization if they were to study failed human societies.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8934858]

A great read, published in 2009, is Jim Squires’ HEADLESS HORSEMEN, particularly chapter 6 titled “Subprime Salesmanship.” Full of information and often hilariously honest observations, I recommend it.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read Jim Squires’ books and have met Mr. Squires. I also don’t think that his books should be read as gospel of what is/has been going on in the industry. But that’s neither here or there.

My major problem with Vineyridge’s posts is that they are looking for multiple reasons to attack the industry without listening to what people actually in the industry (not even talking about my posts) are saying.

(Also, just because I’ve been in the industry/paying close attention to the industry for 15 years doesn’t mean I’ve ignored the history of it … even in the 50s, 60s and 70s people were screaming that it was dying and going even farther, I’ve found people saying the exact same thing since the 1800s. So yes, I feel like my research on the “true recognition on the declining health of North American horse racing.” I’m not saying the industry hasn’t declined but it’s most definitely not a “racing will be dead in 5 years unless we stop retiring horses/reducing takeout/changing what we breed!” situation that some try to say it is.)

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8935374]
I’ve read Jim Squires’ books and have met Mr. Squires. I also don’t think that his books should be read as gospel of what is/has been going on in the industry. But that’s neither here or there.

My major problem with Vineyridge’s posts is that they are looking for multiple reasons to attack the industry without listening to what people actually in the industry (not even talking about my posts) are saying.

(Also, just because I’ve been in the industry/paying close attention to the industry for 15 years doesn’t mean I’ve ignored the history of it … even in the 50s, 60s and 70s people were screaming that it was dying and going even farther, I’ve found people saying the exact same thing since the 1800s. So yes, I feel like my research on the “true recognition on the declining health of North American horse racing.” I’m not saying the industry hasn’t declined but it’s most definitely not a “racing will be dead in 5 years unless we stop retiring horses/reducing takeout/changing what we breed!” situation that some try to say it is.)[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to work or be involved in the industry to have or offer an opinion. Vineyridge has proven time and time again on this and other forums to be an astute and thoughtful horse person.

Further the number of articles and research, to include a serious review of Headless Horsemen, clearly dispute your accessment of the current health of horse racing by concluding it is seriously troubled. Earlier this year there was this report.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/horse-racing-fading-revenue-popularity-457123%3Famp%3D1?client=ms-android-verizon

In 2012, this . . .

http://www.businessinsider.com/bad-time-for-horse-industry-2012-6

And sadly there are many more.

[gotpaints]

Just in case you missed this quote from me since it sounds like you did:
“I’m not saying the industry hasn’t declined but it’s most definitely not a “racing will be dead in 5 years unless we stop retiring horses/reducing takeout/changing what we breed!” situation that some try to say it is.”

[LaurieB]

What I really want to know is why every thread in the Racing Forum that generates any interest and commentary has to highjacked and turned into a “horse racing is dead” thread?

We already have numerous threads on that topic. Perhaps the people who believe that so ardently could go post on their own threads and let the rest of us discuss stallions (and anything else) in peace.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8935615]
What I really want to know is why every thread in the Racing Forum that generates any interest and commentary has to highjacked and turned into a “horse racing is dead” thread?

We already have numerous threads on that topic. Perhaps the people who believe that so ardently could go post on their own threads and let the rest of us discuss stallions (and anything else) in peace.[/QUOTE]

Thank you!

I’ve been meaning to chime in on this thread. There are IMO and hands on experience a number of things that aren’t necessarily “wrong” but certainly not correct, a bit of misinformation and or being looked/examined without a sound understanding of the “business” end of things.

But these things can not be explained in a couple of paragraphs. Whether fans of the sport like it or not. It is and has been for a long time a business in the end. Big business. It has little to nothing to do with greed.

If people took the time to do some research they would see that top horses, colts rarely raced after 4. Most were lightly raced as 4 year olds. A couple of moderate races and they were retired. This has been the"rule" for more than 75+ years. Saying this is detrimental to the breed and the sport has no bases in fact.

[gotpaints]

Going back to stallions and big books, I’m interested to see how much/if Uncle Mo’s book drops next year due to having two sons at stud and his rise in stud fee. Obviously Nyquist and Outwork are in different fee brackets from each other ($40k vs. $15k) and in a much different bracket than their sire ($150k) but it’ll be interesting to see how that works out.

Personally, seeing both Outwork and Nyquist in person last week on the same day, I liked Outwork better but it wasn’t a fair comparison since he’s been off the track for a lot longer than Nyquist so has had a chance to let down a bit.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8935686]
Going back to stallions and big books, I’m interested to see how much/if Uncle Mo’s book drops next year due to having two sons at stud and his rise in stud fee. Obviously Nyquist and Outwork are in different fee brackets from each other ($40k vs. $15k) and in a much different bracket than their sire ($150k) but it’ll be interesting to see how that works out.

Personally, seeing both Outwork and Nyquist in person last week on the same day, I liked Outwork better but it wasn’t a fair comparison since he’s been off the track for a lot longer than Nyquist so has had a chance to let down a bit.[/QUOTE]

What they look like “now” verses what they will look like in a couple of months after being “let down” should have no bearing on whether to breed to them or not. Certainly not to anybody that knows what they are doing and writing the check.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8935703]
What they look like “now” verses what they will look like in a couple of months after being “let down” should have no bearing on whether to breed to them or not. Certainly not to anybody that knows what they are doing and writing the check.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with that to an extent. Of course the conformation doesn’t change but the way they move can after they get time off if they aren’t moving properly due to racing injuries and other issues.

[Deleted my edited part because I don’t want this thread to turn into even more of an argument than it already has]

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8935721]
I disagree with that to an extent. Of course the conformation doesn’t change but the way they move can after they get time off if they aren’t moving properly due to racing injuries and other issues.

I’m also not understanding the pot shot in the last sentence. Not sure what I did to deserve that but I’m not the only one who has the opinion that ducks can turn into swans when they have some time away from the track. And I’ve been told that from very successful breeders so it’s not just randoms saying that.[/QUOTE]

“Not sure what I did to deserve that but I’m not the only one who has the opinion that ducks can turn into swans when they have some time away from the track”

Sorry, it was not personal, not “aimed at you”. Sorry if you took it that way.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8935738]
“Not sure what I did to deserve that but I’m not the only one who has the opinion that ducks can turn into swans when they have some time away from the track”

Sorry, it was not personal, not “aimed at you”. Sorry if you took it that way.[/QUOTE]

Glad to get that cleared up. Like I said and you almost certainly know, a lot can change about the way a horse moves when they get over soreness and away from training every day. That’s what I meant, not that the conformation changes and it’s been drilled into my head by multiple breeders that how a horse (stallion, youngstock, mare) moves when things aren’t wrong can tell you a lot about them.

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=gotpaints;8932269]
Some stallions I’ve went to actually get better as the season goes on. Some really don’t care about breeding even when the season starts and it gets no better (and in some cases) no worse throughout the season and some make us wait around for a while the farther into the season we get. It’s one of those things that depends on each horse but there are some who have back issues from the track (or breeding for years on end) flip you the bird and make you wait for a long time (those are the ones that you know you don’t have to get to the shed early because they’re going to put you last even if they have two shed).[/QUOTE]

You mean I’m not the only one who has had to wait at Ashford for two hours on a shed trip? Things tend to go quick and smooth in March, gets a little sluggish in May for certain horses.

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;8935852]
You mean I’m not the only one who has had to wait at Ashford for two hours on a shed trip? Things tend to go quick and smooth in March, gets a little sluggish in May for certain horses.[/QUOTE]

Ditto with WinStar as well, haha. Interestingly, we had a long few trips with one stallion at another farm in February yet when we took mares to him in April-May, they were “blink and you’re done” covers.

[SnicklefritzG]

I visited a number of farms this summer for stallion inspections. There was one, don’t recall which, that said they have a slow shed and a fast shed. :lol:

[gotpaints]

There’s a farm that has two popular stallions who refuse to breed in one of their two sheds. Both are slower stallions so it always feels like a race to beat the other mare there so you’re not there for half the day. If you don’t beat the other mare, you know you can take a nap because it’s going to be a while, haha.

[ravenclaw]

This might be another pervy question, but are the slow stallions just slow to get in the mood? Or are they slow doing the actual breeding?

The only TB breeding I have ever seen was on YouTube…it was at a farm in Australia or New Zealand. The stallion was brought in the shed (he was all ready) and he mounted the mare and it was over in about 10 seconds.

I know some stallions are more shy about breeding, but do most breedings happen quickly once the stallion mounts the mare?

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=ravenclaw;8936631]
This might be another pervy question, but are the slow stallions just slow to get in the mood? Or are they slow doing the actual breeding?

The only TB breeding I have ever seen was on YouTube…it was at a farm in Australia or New Zealand. The stallion was brought in the shed (he was all ready) and he mounted the mare and it was over in about 10 seconds.

I know some stallions are more shy about breeding, but do most breedings happen quickly once the stallion mounts the mare?[/QUOTE]

There can be all kinds of slow. Some stallions walk into the breeding shed and basically just stand there even though the mare is prepped and waiting for them. They have to be encouraged even to approach

Some show a little more interest, sniffing and nuzzling, then backing away before coming forward to sniff some more. Nothing can happen until the horse “drops” and get an erection so everybody is just waiting around, no matter how long that takes. Occasionally the handlers will remove the stallion from the shed–indicating that if he doesn’t get down to business he won’t get to breed the mare. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t.

The worst (IMO) are the stallions who mount the mare but don’t ejaculate, then pull out and hop down. Then the whole process has to be started over again. That can happen several times while the horse needs to be repeatedly teased back into wanting to do the deed.

(I hope that wasn’t too graphic.)

[mommy_peanut]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8937491]
There can be all kinds of slow. Some stallions walk into the breeding shed and basically just stand there even though the mare is prepped and waiting for them. They have to be encouraged even to approach

Some show a little more interest, sniffing and nuzzling, then backing away before coming forward to sniff some more. Nothing can happen until the horse “drops” and get an erection so everybody is just waiting around, no matter how long that takes. Occasionally the handlers will remove the stallion from the shed–indicating that if he doesn’t get down to business he won’t get to breed the mare. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t.

The worst (IMO) are the stallions who mount the mare but don’t ejaculate, then pull out and hop down. Then the whole process has to be started over again. That can happen several times while the horse needs to be repeatedly teased back into wanting to do the deed.

(I hope that wasn’t too graphic.)[/QUOTE]

Curious if these “slow” or uninterested stallions are ever just pulled from the breeding program?
I’m guessing it’s probably rather unheard of to do so, correct?
Are there certain lines that are known to be “difficult” breeders?

In breeding dogs (Yes, I know it’s NOT the same;) ) it is not unusual to pull dogs that have no interest in natural/live breeding from ones breeding program.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;8937491]
The worst (IMO) are the stallions who mount the mare but don’t ejaculate, then pull out and hop down. Then the whole process has to be started over again. That can happen several times while the horse needs to be repeatedly teased back into wanting to do the deed.[/QUOTE]

Since we all obviously need a life (and I, for one, am curious about the “business” end of breeding; I get the basic process but not how “mass production” is handled ).

How do the handlers in the shed know if he’s ejaculated or not? Does each stallion have their own “signals” or are they fairly consistent in their indicators of actual completion?