Limiting Stallions' Books

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8937619]
Since we all obviously need a life (and I, for one, am curious about the “business” end of breeding; I get the basic process but not how “mass production” is handled ).

How do the handlers in the shed know if he’s ejaculated or not? Does each stallion have their own “signals” or are they fairly consistent in their indicators of actual completion?[/QUOTE]

They will almost always flag their tail, and there’s often a bit of semen dripping when the stallion dismounts (many farms “catch the dismount” in a cup, to check under microscope and/or “reinforce” the breeding with a straw of it).

LaurieB described the slow stallion behavior pretty well. I don’t recall any “slow” breeders being culled, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen (War Emblem, anyone?). The “slow” breeders I’m thinking of are VERY successful, very popular stallions and thus it’s well worth $$$ waiting them out. Often, their slowness is directly related to that popularity…after breeding 200 mares (plus some with repeat covers) they can get burned out physically and mentally. Stud handlers are excellent at their job, and know when to be patient and when to push a bit.

Aside from those few stallions, the average cover is really quick. It takes 5-10 minutes to prep the mare (wash her, wrap her tail, put a twitch and boots on, maybe a leather neck cover depending on stallion). She’s possibly jumped by a teaser wearing an apron, then he’s led away and the stallion comes in (most of them 100% ready for action). Stallion does his thing in a minute or two, with a full staff of human helpers, and then the mare gets undressed and goes home back to her foal, if she has one. Even young, green stallions get the program pretty quickly. It’s a very businesslike process, not altogether “natural” but it’s done safely and efficiently.

[Willesdon]

Racing and breeding might be ‘business’ but the horse doesn’t know that. One stallion I know of would only mount a mare outside, never in the shed, and another would never cover a grey mare, ever.

[ravenclaw]

[QUOTE=Willesdon;8938818]
another would never cover a grey mare, ever.[/QUOTE]

What happens in that situation? Do the owners pick another stallion or do they use some temporary hair dye on the mare? :lol:

This kind of information is really interesting. I have been a racing fan for many years but I don’t know much about the breeding end…especially the behind the scenes stuff.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=ravenclaw;8939023]
What happens in that situation? Do the owners pick another stallion or do they use some temporary hair dye on the mare? :lol:

This kind of information is really interesting. I have been a racing fan for many years but I don’t know much about the breeding end…especially the behind the scenes stuff.[/QUOTE]

With one stallion, the only thing that gets him excited is a particular pinto pony mare. The stallion stands behind a beautiful TB and looks over at the pinto while mounting. Then the pinto is hustled around in front of the TB mare so the stallion can still see her while he does his thing. It always reminds me of a husband looking at porn over his wife’s shoulder while they’re engaged in the same act. :lol:

[gotpaints]

There’s one stallion who isn’t a fan of sedated mares. I know of at least two instances where another non-sedated mare had to come in the shed with whoever they had to sedate to get him ready to go then stand her in front of the “real date” so he’d get down to business. I found it interesting to watch him turn up his nose two different times in different parts of the season after watching the mares get sedated. They hadn’t done anything to him to scare him away (trying to kick him, ect) so it didn’t seem like a case of “she’s too scary to risk myself with.” (One did kick the teaser though so maybe the teaser sent him a warning that she wasn’t a nice one, haha)

[Where_sMyWhite]

I was musing recently related to this thread, what if JC removed the live cover restriction but then enforced some maximum number of TB foals that could be registered per year to a stallion?

I can see a few benefits to the stallion and related “connections” that he’s not breeding 2, 3, 4 times/day, easier on back and hocks as well as not risking injury from the mare or any of the other “I’m not in the mood” issues we’ve discussed.

Safer for the mares as well. Yeah, he’d still have to be collected. Maybe even an added requirement that no frozen, only chilled and/or mare on the same premises.

Would this address all the live cover arguments?

[Albion]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8940004]
I was musing recently related to this thread, what if JC removed the live cover restriction but then enforced some maximum number of TB foals that could be registered per year to a stallion?[/QUOTE]

This is how the AQHA got sued in the early 2000s (going the other way around - limiting the number of ET foals that could be registered per mare). E.g. http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13177/aqha-settles-embryo-transfer-lawsuit

I can’t imagine that limiting the number of foals by a stallion that could be registered wouldn’t run into the exact same legal challenges, though I’m not a lawyer.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Good point but wonder then when someone will challenge the whole implied limit with live cover…

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8940821]
Good point but wonder then when someone will challenge the whole implied limit with live cover…[/QUOTE]

You might be interested in this dated article. It will probably answer some of your questions. As the article points out there was a unsuccessful challenge to only live cover in Australia based on a restraint of trade argument. It is doubtful such an argument will be made in U S courts.

http://equine-reproduction.com/articles/Thoroughbred-AI.shtml

[gotpaints]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8940821]
Good point but wonder then when someone will challenge the whole implied limit with live cover…[/QUOTE]

There isn’t really a limit with live cover to challenge though. If a farm is really motivated, they could breed a horse more than three-four times a day (assuming the stallion works with them) if they could attract the mares. I can’t see a judge saying anyone is violating free trade laws if it’s down to the animals themselves refusing.

I could see it getting dicey if books were limited but I imagine there’d be a ton of legal research that would go into it before it was even proposed.

[Willesdon]

Isn’t this also self-limiting? The value of offspring is partly due to scarcity. People buy a dream and hope for good luck. Certain stallions are more likely to produce good horses and people will pay top money for that dream - but each year, only one horse can win the Derby. If there are a lot of foals on the ground then the scarcity diminishes and presumably/potentially the value also falls. The breeders have to balance nature and market forces.

[Pronzini]

[QUOTE=Willesdon;8950777]
Isn’t this also self-limiting? The value of offspring is partly due to scarcity. People buy a dream and hope for good luck. Certain stallions are more likely to produce good horses and people will pay top money for that dream - but each year, only one horse can win the Derby. If there are a lot of foals on the ground then the scarcity diminishes and presumably/potentially the value also falls. The breeders have to balance nature and market forces.[/QUOTE]

The person who is really taking the chance is the mare owner who wants to sell commercially. Most stallion managers have a 4 year plan–that is, the assumption is that the stallion will probably move on in 4 years because so few make it. So maximizing value in those 4 years makes economic sense. However it is the mare owner whose foal will be sold with 80 others by the same stallion at Keeneland September.

That said, if a person is trying to make a mare, the big books give access to bloodlines and stallions that didn’t used to exist in the old days. I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing.

Also the Kentucky Derby is one race and not even necessarily a stallion making race. Grade 1 stakes in general make a stallion’s resume – the more the better and particularly the more horses that can achieve it year after year. There aren’t too many hotter stallions right now than Candy Ride (try to get to him) but Birdstone sire of Mine That Bird has a multiple mare deal available.