How close is too close? Came across a lovely filly whose Grandsire is the same on both sides of her pedigree. He’s a very nice horse, but is this too close or commonly done? Any worries considering this filly as a broodmare prospect? TIA
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?414813-Sex-Balanced-Line-Breeding
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/siblings.html
all of those links give a little detail about Linebreeding.
IMHO It depends on who the grandsire is, truly, but having the same grandsire is not always a bad thing. It also depends on what you want out of the filly - IE, if you have a grandsire that is known to be “hot” and throw “hot” and you’re a timid rider, you may not want to buy her - just an example. I can only list one sire off-hand I wouldn’t want to see on both the sire/dam line, but it is a racing TB and probably irrelevant.
You might get some more insight if you post the filly’s pedigree- there are a lot of very knowledgable people who post on the breeding forum.
There is a current discussion on Line Breeding in the thread on which stallions you would or would not like to see doubled in pedigrees.
I personally am a huge fan, even that close, but only if the horse that is double grandsire is one that you would like to own and ride yourself and is free of conformation faults that might lead to soundness problems later. Even if the horse himself is sound on bad conformation points, that’s no guarantee that the grandfoal will be.
Take a look at this pedigree.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/7148
He’s a very active stallion in Belgium and has produced more than a few 1.60 jumpers, per horsetelex
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7185558]
There is a current discussion on Line Breeding in the thread on which stallions you would or would not like to see doubled in pedigrees.
I personally am a huge fan, even that close, but only if the horse that is double grandsire is one that you would like to own and ride yourself and is free of conformation faults that might lead to soundness problems later. Even if the horse himself is sound on bad conformation points, that’s no guarantee that the grandfoal will be.
Take a look at this pedigree.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/7148
He’s a very active stallion in Belgium and has produced more than a few 1.60 jumpers, per horsetelex[/QUOTE]
I saw you post that in the other thread and was eyeing it a little… Because the relatives are in the third generation, does that make it in-breeding or line-breeding? There seems to be a confusion/disagreement about when it is/isn’t inbreeding? A lovely horse though!
Rex Z is the result of a full brother/ full sister mating. Can’t get any closer than that, unless father/daughter or mother/son. There was a very good event horse who was mother/son, but it did have the unrelated sire of the son in the mix. This one doesn’t.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7185592]
Rex Z is the result of a full brother/ full sister mating. Can’t get any closer than that, unless father/daughter.[/QUOTE]
Was this intentional or was it a “paddock incident”? The balls on those guys if deliberate!
I was always under the impression it is line breeding when it works, inbreeding when it doesn’t 
Ratina Z was about six years old when Rex Z was born. She became one of the greatest show jumping mares in history afterwards. She was a 1982 mare and Rex Z was born in 1988. Rebel I Z was a year older. It’s not like you had two foals together in the same pasture and an oops.
There is also a horse named Rock Z who was the result of Rebel I being bred to his dam. He’s the same year as Rex I, so one suspects that both foals were planned.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7185598]
Was this intentional or was it a “paddock incident”? The balls on those guys if deliberate![/QUOTE]
Intentional. Part of the reason Leon Melchior created the Zangersheide (“Z”) studbook was because the major European WB registries were not enthralled with his inbreeding practices. A little bit of inbreeding - such as mentioned on the other thread - was tolerated on occasion, but Melchior was intent on doing heavy inbreeding of mothers to sons, fathers to daughters, sisters to brothers, etc. Needless to say, the German and Dutch registry officials were pretty squeamish about this idea.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7185740]
Intentional. Part of the reason Leon Melchior created the Zangersheide (“Z”) studbook was because the major European WB registries were not enthralled with his inbreeding practices. A little bit of inbreeding - such as mentioned on the other thread - was tolerated on occasion, but Melchior was intent on doing heavy inbreeding of mothers to sons, fathers to daughters, sisters to brothers, etc. Needless to say, the German and Dutch registry officials were pretty squeamish about this idea.[/QUOTE]
With good reason, IMHO! Linebreeding is a great tool that has clearly produced some amazing horses… but if you ask me, narrowing/confining the genepool that much deliberately is asking for some repercussions… There are predispositions out there many people don’t know of - IE, what if these horses had the proclivity to have weaker vessel walls/aortic ruptures/other heart issues and no one knew until it was too late?
My two cents - Melchior is certainly more tungsten than I am!
ETA: I did some searching on both stallions and on Horse and Hound the consensus is that it was an ‘oopsie’?
I doubt if it were an “oopsie”. One maybe; two, nope.
There was a very famous French TB breeder, Marcel Broussac, in the first half or so of the twentieth century who was famous for close inbreeding. He bred some exceptional horses that way. And the French probably ate his culls.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7185592]
Rex Z is the result of a full brother/ full sister mating. Can’t get any closer than that, unless father/daughter or mother/son. There was a very good event horse who was mother/son, but it did have the unrelated sire of the son in the mix. This one doesn’t.[/QUOTE]
I saw his pedigree on the other thread; I wish he was alive today – I would LOVE to get a double dose of Ramzes that close up in the pedigree. To me, Ramzes is/was one of the most influential stallions in WB breeding – almost a miracle in terms of what he produced on very average (for the most part) mares.
To produce Olympic winners in both jumping AND dressage and establish his own line in 2 different registries (one breeding jumpers and the other breeding dressage horses) – has any other stallion ever done that?
And he only produced 195 foals in his lifetime. Yet all but 25 ended up competing in sport. Pretty impressive.
Viney – did he do anything impressive as a stallion? I don’t see him in many pedigrees…
Rex Z definitely passed on some potent characteristics to Regina Z, currently jumping 1.50 and the occasional 1.60 with Harrie Smolders. Google her videos and you’ll see the fantastic reflexes and technique of Ratina on a somewhat more short-coupled body. The mother is a trotter! And it looks like a lot of Rex Z’s line furthered their careers in Argentina with Zangersheide’s southern outpost.
I’m far from an expert, but my understanding is that when you are looking at potential matings you want the coefficient of relatedness to be lower than 33%. A mother-son or brother-sister are 50% related, so too close to be good according to those principles. A horse with two grandparents the same has a coefficent of relatedness at 12.76% - well below the amount for concern. But it’s good to look back in the other portions of the pedigree as there can be duplicates further back to keep an eye on. Line-breeding on line-bred animals can take you interesting and sometimes unpleasant places…or to superstars. The gamble that some are willing to take I suppose.
Mr. Melchor is certainly more brave than I am too - not sure I would do full siblings or mother-son pairings. I might try half-siblings IF I knew the mare they were out of was exceptional, because you’re basically getting her… and then I would definitely be directly outcrossing the next pairing with the resulting filly, and a colt would have to be assessed as to his caliber in order to maintain his jewels, of course, and gelding is always an option. There is also the option of just sending the foal forward to riding horse school if the resulting cross didn’t quite work the way you thought it might. But if you tried it once and it worked out to be spectaculamo, then I’d be willing to try it again. For sure.
I’m considering line breeding to Rubinstein, which is a pretty safe lineage to do this with. I have a Rubinstein granddaughter who has Airport (v. Argentan) as her great-grandsire and am considering putting her to one of the few remaining Rubinstein sons. I want some Donnerhall blood because she does really well with D line, so I’m considering Rubignon since he is a direct Rubinstein son and Donnerhall grandson with the added bonus of the great Pik Bube! Skoven’s Rafael also provides what I want with both D and R, but the Rubinstein is a bit further back, but that can be okay too. Rubinus is also an interesting option as a direct Rubinstein son and doubles up to Dolman of the Detektiv / Devils Own xx line, and lots of Ramzes AA blood.
[QUOTE=eaconlee;7189193]
I’m far from an expert, but my understanding is that when you are looking at potential matings you want the coefficient of relatedness to be lower than 33%. A mother-son or brother-sister are 50% related, so too close to be good according to those principles. A horse with two grandparents the same has a coefficent of relatedness at 12.76% - well below the amount for concern. But it’s good to look back in the other portions of the pedigree as there can be duplicates further back to keep an eye on. Line-breeding on line-bred animals can take you interesting and sometimes unpleasant places…or to superstars. The gamble that some are willing to take I suppose.[/QUOTE]
Why 33%?
Rex Z had eight direct get who competed FEI. I’m too lazy to see just what levels those eight jumped at. Of those two were intact when they competed: Rexito Z and Roble Z. I have no idea if either of them bred on.
According to SPBD, both bred on. Roble Z was in France and Rexito Z (Luxembourg SB) in Switzerland. They also show another intact son who doesn’t seem to have had an FEI career–Rover Z who also bred on. He’s the one in Argentina. He’s got a truly interesting pedigree because his damsire was a US TB from very well established sport lines, and his second dam was yet another line to Ramiro.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10336483
There are a couple of stallion sons by Rover Z who bred on in Argentina.
If you want REALLY close inbreeding to Ramiro, try to find Rover Z frozen. <grin>
[QUOTE=rodawn;7190296]
I’m considering line breeding to Rubinstein, which is a pretty safe lineage to do this with. I have a Rubinstein granddaughter who has Airport (v. Argentan) as her great-grandsire and am considering putting her to one of the few remaining Rubinstein sons. I want some Donnerhall blood because she does really well with D line, so I’m considering Rubignon since he is a direct Rubinstein son and Donnerhall grandson with the added bonus of the great Pik Bube! Skoven’s Rafael also provides what I want with both D and R, but the Rubinstein is a bit further back, but that can be okay too. Rubinus is also an interesting option as a direct Rubinstein son and doubles up to Dolman of the Detektiv / Devils Own xx line, and lots of Ramzes AA blood.[/QUOTE]
I tried this afew years ago; bred a Rubino Bellisimo daughter to Rosenthal. Here is the pedigree.http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=ROSALINA+RHR&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
I got a very nice mare with a super mind, but the phenotype did not come through. Did not get what I was hoping for (although the mare did win a Mare Championship in=hand) in terms of over-all improvement.
Just saying…
[QUOTE=eaconlee;7189193]
I’m far from an expert, but my understanding is that when you are looking at potential matings you want the coefficient of relatedness to be lower than 33%. A mother-son or brother-sister are 50% related, so too close to be good according to those principles. A horse with two grandparents the same has a coefficent of relatedness at 12.76% - well below the amount for concern. But it’s good to look back in the other portions of the pedigree as there can be duplicates further back to keep an eye on. Line-breeding on line-bred animals can take you interesting and sometimes unpleasant places…or to superstars. The gamble that some are willing to take I suppose.[/QUOTE]
I have to ask where you are getting your info? Because you can look at the history of horse breeding and find these examples all over the place. PEOPLE get squeemish about “linebreeding” but the fact is it often produces amazing results. For that matter, even when royalty routinely married their first cousins, (and in Egypt they would marry their siblings!), you didn’t get disasters that often.
Of course on occasion, but surprisingly seldom, all things considered…
I think people are squeamish out of “common” knowledge of the subject. That line breeding causes issues.
Once again, if the horse doesn’t have many issues or serious ones, then the offspring shouldn’t either. Must remember the gene pool really isn’t that big to start with, within most breeds. So they share similar genetics anyway, that is what a breed is, a narrowed range of genetics.
The only things that are going to pop up are recessive/co-dominate traits and most of them will still pop up when bred to a range of mares.
It really is that “particular” combination of genes that you are trying to reproduce when you line breed. A successful pattern that was already proven successful as opposed to hybrid vigour where you are looking to create that successful pattern.
This is my understanding and would enjoy to see information or research otherwise.
