Linebreeding

[eaconlee]

Kyzteke, my info is from layman’s reading of a number of sources. Basically I agree with you that you can get amazing results from close line breeding, but you can also get unpleasant results as well when recessive genes find each other. One of the observations that has been made is that closely line bred animals show loss of vigor, size & fertility.

The upside to line breeding is that you are likely to get much more consistent offspring that with unrelated breedings. As an example, breed two herefords together, you will get an offspring quite similar to the parents. Breed a dairy bull to beef cows and you will get a wider variety of offspring - some quite like the sire, some quite like the dam, and everything in between.

With performance horses, we obviously want to concentrate the genes that lead to top jumping or dressage etc…without ending up with negative consequences of increasing the recessive genes through line breeding. It’s an art and a science and I’ve only scratched the surface of understanding, so sure hope a true expert will step in and educate us.

[eaconlee]

p.s. for what it’s worth I think people often overestimate the relatedness. Look at this testmating below and you might start to worry about the amount of Cor de or others. And yet when the coefficient is calculated for this testmating it is 5.03%. So repeating horses through the pedigree but further back doesn’t ramp up the coefficient nearly as much as our “eye” thinks it would.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10484320&damid=10878515

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7190619]
I’m too lazy to see just what levels those eight jumped at. Of those two were intact when they competed: Rexito Z and Roble Z.
<grin>[/QUOTE]

Roble Z jumped in the Athens Olympics in 2004. He is out of Cobra Z, who is the dam of my best mare (who also jumped at a high level). Roble was line bred to Heureka (Stemm 8145, which is so impressive a stemm that Melchior built his studbook on it) as well, which is something that I have been wanting to do, but cannot find the right stallion to accomplish it, myself.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=eaconlee;7190675]

With performance horses, we obviously want to concentrate the genes that lead to top jumping or dressage etc…without ending up with negative consequences of increasing the recessive genes through line breeding. It’s an art and a science and I’ve only scratched the surface of understanding, so sure hope a true expert will step in and educate us.[/QUOTE]

See, I look at the pedigrees of actual, successful horses (either as performers themselves OR as producers of performers). THOSE are my teachers. Because those horses didn’t breed themselves…some smart/lucky breeder made the choices.

When you start looking at extended pedigrees via sources like Sporthorse Data base, you will truly be amazed at how much linebreeding/inbreeding you will see…

See if you can use those examples to educate yourself, because we all have opinions…but there is powerful info in just looking at the result of the linebreeding.

And yes, you CAN introduce issues, like HYPP. But honestly, as often as this is done for as long as it’s been done, those cases are really quite rare. And, in the case of HYPP, the AQHA knew for decades that Impressive was the source of it all, but they did nothing to regulate the breeding…that’s how it got into the breed in such big numbers.

So researching WHO you linebreed/inbreed to is vital.

You know, I’m really surprised this is even a debate…go check out the Holsteiner breed: currently produces some of the top international jumpers in the WORLD and has for ages…take a look at the “average” Holsteiner…try to find ONE that doesn’t have multiple crosses to Ladykiller, Cor, Capitol I, Ramiro, etc.

Heck, they have built the breed on linebreeding and inbreeding!!

The take home message (to me): it’s not IF you utilize this method in a breeding program, because it’s been proven by generations of horse breeding and breeders all over the world. Instead, it’s WHO you use while doing it…

THAT is the key…

PS. While researching one of the stallions suggested to me on the Ramzes Linebreeding link, I came across this article on a Sporthorse Breeding site about “Noteworthy”, a stallion bred 62.+% on Ramiro (who was also linebred). Obviously a success and bred by a physician! Lots of good info and other articles/pedigrees to illustraate successful (and not so successful) examples of these practices.
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/Noteworthy.html

Also an article on Ramiro himself, who, if you examine his pedigree closely, you will actually see a number of examples of (successful) brother/sister matings.
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/Potent-Ramiro.html

Seriously…I can’t imagine any breeder having success without using some of these methods OR using heavily linebred/inbred horses and gaining the genotypical strengths that these animals bring to the table.

[beowulf]

Eaconlee, HYPP isn’t recessive - and IIRC, wasn’t introduced through “linebreeding”.

[Kyzteke]

I believe it was…via linebreeding to Impressive. Are you sure of your info?

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7190925]
I believe it was…via linebreeding to Impressive. Are you sure of your info?[/QUOTE]

It’s either an incomplete dominant or it’s a recessive in its most lethal form. It can affect horses when it’s H/N, but it’s not nearly as bad as H/H. The H came from Impressive and the H/H came from inbreeding to Impressive.

[beowulf]

There’s always the possibility I am wrong! But I was always told it wasn’t through linebreeding, rather, Impressive started it all but the QH were not as big on linebreeding as the WB registries are.

[vineyridge]

QHs have several genetic diseases that can be traced to a single stallion line that was heavily used. Poco Bueno is implicated in a disease that causes the skin to sluff off.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7190938]
QHs have several genetic diseases that can be traced to a single stallion line that was heavily used. Poco Bueno is implicated in a disease that causes the skin to sluff off.[/QUOTE]

I remember when they first discovered this…I think it was the University of LA that did the first research…and actually it was Poco’s DAM who was the carrier. And it was introduced via Poco, who has been used heavily in the QH world.

I think they found this out by seeing the same disease show up in the pedigrees of horses who didn’t have Poco, but DID have a sibling. But of course it was Poco who brought this disease with him, although he was only a carrier.

Again, it was a recessive gene apparently.

Again, I’m old, and my memory isn’t what it use to be, but that’s the way I recall it…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7190933]
There’s always the possibility I am wrong! But I was always told it wasn’t through linebreeding, rather, Impressive started it all but the QH were not as big on linebreeding as the WB registries are.[/QUOTE]

I’m thinking you are…it all came from Impressive and don’t kid yourself about QH people NOT using linebreeding…they do and did.

Actually, with the exception of the Holsteiners, I see less of it in WBs than I do/did TBs, QH’s & Arabs…but maybe that’s simply because I’m not looking…

[paulamc]

The story with Impressive was really an isolated case - I don’t think this is a general risk of line breeding or inbreeding and has as been stated here the horses you pick for this have to be superior and sound individuals, like Ramiro, the Calypsos, furioso 11 , ladykiller - there are so many examples, too many to quote here

looking at the pedigrees of the great horses - performers, stallions, great broodmares can teach us so much, if we want to look at them that is, many people are not interested or its simply too much work for many

I am trying to construct my matings in the same way as many of these great horses and a real challenge it is too

Paulamc

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7190933]
There’s always the possibility I am wrong! But I was always told it wasn’t through linebreeding, rather, Impressive started it all but the QH were not as big on linebreeding as the WB registries are.[/QUOTE]

Huh? There is linebreeding in WBs but not nearly as much as inbreeding as in some QH lines and in Arabians.

[grayarabpony]

I hate to see inbreeding discussed as though there couldn’t possibly be any harm to it.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7191502]
I hate to see inbreeding discussed as though there couldn’t possibly be any harm to it.[/QUOTE]

I really don’t think anyone is discussing it like that. But, after browsing through that great site Paulamc recommended, I can see how often inbreeding has IMPROVED a pedigree.

It has been proven over and over again to be a very strong tool, but you MUST know your stock. That is key.

The problems introduces by Impressive & Poco B. were both recessive genes. HYPP was traced to Impressive fairly early, but, as I mentioned before, AQHA did NOTHING to stop it or even regulate it till afew years ago…and Impressive was back in the mid-'70’s I think!

And what alot of people don’t realize is that he was half TB…so maybe it came from that side?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressive_(horse)

As far as the skin sloughing disease linked to Poco B’s dam, it WAS just recently discovered to be genetic and immediately the researcher who discovered the link offered to inspect pedigrees as for susceptibility (I don’t believe there is/was a test).

But in general, if you do your research, it has great strength. In fact, there is even an article on the site about the value of full or part sibling crosses.
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/siblings.html

[grayarabpony]

Yeah, right, full or half sibling crosses are always a good idea. Rolls eyes… There no reason to even do a cross such as that.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7191542]
Yeah, right, full or half sibling crosses are always a good idea. Rolls eyes… There no reason to even do a cross such as that.[/QUOTE]

If you actually READ the article it will explain why it’s often a good idea to do that…and will give you plenty of fine examples of how it worked…maybe open your mind abit…

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=paulamc;7191379]
The story with Impressive was really an isolated case - I don’t think this is a general risk of line breeding or inbreeding and has as been stated here the horses you pick for this have to be superior and sound individuals, like Ramiro, the Calypsos, furioso 11 , ladykiller - there are so many examples, too many to quote here

looking at the pedigrees of the great horses - performers, stallions, great broodmares can teach us so much, if we want to look at them that is, many people are not interested or its simply too much work for many

I am trying to construct my matings in the same way as many of these great horses and a real challenge it is too

Paulamc[/QUOTE]

I generally agree with Paula, however, as mentioned in the other thread on this subject, the Calypsos would not be on the list as horses that should be readily picked to line breed to. It is well known that linebreeding to Calypso II has resulted in propagation of serious flaws indicating that even with the greats we have to be careful how we use them.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?337167-Double-up-on-Calypso-II&highlight=Linebreeding+Calypso+II

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7191547]
If you actually READ the article it will explain why it’s often a good idea to do that…and will give you plenty of fine examples of how it worked…maybe open your mind abit…;)[/QUOTE]

Oh please. I know more about genetics that what’s in that article. The article won’t go into all of the times inbreeding didn’t work out.

All you have to do is look at dog breeding, for example, to see the dangers of inbreeding. Anyone who says those dangers don’t apply to horses is ignorant or stupid.

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7186302]
I saw his pedigree on the other thread; I wish he was alive today – I would LOVE to get a double dose of Ramzes that close up in the pedigree. To me, Ramzes is/was one of the most influential stallions in WB breeding – almost a miracle in terms of what he produced on very average (for the most part) mares.[/QUOTE]

We were fortunate to own a Performance Tested Holsteiner grandson of Ramzes who we imported to Australia. One of the main criteria of the stallions we have bred to is that they contain at least 1 line of Ramzes and we have been exceptionally happy with the progeny of Stedinger, Rosario and Lord Sinclair (6 crosses without counting the “maybe” extra one from Capitol).