Linebreeding

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7190933]
There’s always the possibility I am wrong! But I was always told it wasn’t through linebreeding, rather, Impressive started it all but the QH were not as big on linebreeding as the WB registries are.[/QUOTE]

Impressive had the defective gene but he didn’t have it as a result of linebreeding. However line breeding caused it to show in it’s deadly form. So, the disease wasn’t caused by line breeding but by doubling (tripling) up on a trait that Impressive had so was distributed by line breeding. (Does that make sense?)

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7192420]
Oh please. I know more about genetics that what’s in that article. The article won’t go into all of the times inbreeding didn’t work out.

All you have to do is look at dog breeding, for example, to see the dangers of inbreeding. Anyone who says those dangers don’t apply to horses is ignorant or stupid.[/QUOTE]

Well, apparently you DO know more than 100’s of years worth of successful horse breeders. I’m impressed.

You seem to like Arabs, so I guess you should call Sheila Varian who has used linebreeding for years… or Bazy Tankersley,( who founded her breeding program in large part on Raffles, a product of a father/daughter mating) and let them benefit from your vast knowledge of genetics and horsebreeding.

But first, if you could tell me all about ALL the world class performance horses you have bred. Or even regional champions? County Fair winners?

As for examples that DON’T work in breeding? Guess what? Sometimes they don’t work; outcrosses OR linebreeding. Since you are so smart you must know that breeding for excellence is a numbers game…you aren’t going to hit it out of the park every time. That’s what culling is for.

But you must know that, right?

And you must also know that the reason so many PB dog breeds are screwed up is because careless breeders bred ONLY for “type” or appearance to the total disregard of all else.

The few breeds/breeders who bred more for “performance” in dogs rather than breed identity usually have few serious health issues.

Are you a dog breeder by chance? I’m just curious has to how/where you got all this expert knowledge of what works and what doesn’t in breeding?

[grayarabpony]

I have a biology degree, with an emphasis on genetics, so yes I am aware of the dangers of inbreeding. In fact I think a lot of people are, biology degree or not. I don’t believe that breeders should engage in risky breeding practices that are more likely to result in unhealthy unrideable horses than practical breeding practices.

Actually, I’m not that fond of Arabs, nor am I a dog breeder. I have a Half Arabian pony that I bought to be a companion to my young orphan and still have her. She has many Arabian traits I’m not fond of, btw. There’s a reason for Arabian stereotypes. I don’t have to be a dog breeder to know that crossing siblings is NOT in general a good idea. Why risk it, when you can find a suitable partner that’s not so closely related? In this day and age they’re easy to find. Much easier than 2 centuries ago.

Breeders always act like they have some secret special knowledge. Well, you don’t. You can’t see dangerous recessives until they are doubled up, and inbreeding is an excellent way to achieve that condition. Just cull the horse, right? I thought breeders wanted a healthy useful horse when they bred.

The horses I have bred or not bred have nothing to do with the risks associated with inbreeding, but if you’d like an honest opinion of your breeding program I’d be more than happy to give it. If you keep being nasty I’ll give it whether you like it or not.

Have a nice day.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7192641]

The horses I have bred or not bred have nothing to do with the risks associated with inbreeding, but if you’d like an honest opinion of your breeding program I’d be more than happy to give it. If you keep being nasty I’ll give it whether you like it or not.

Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]

No, but knowing what the heck one is talking about IS relevant. I mean when people profess great knowledge about subjects they obviously know nothing about, it gets annoying. There is a reason for linebreeding/inbreeding and it is OFTEN extremely productive with no risk at all, but AGAIN, if you looked at enough pedigrees and did your research into breeding livestock, you’d know that!

History is filled with fine examples of the success of these measures…all the way back to the very beginning. If you choose to close your eyes and not look at these examples, or educate yourself about very common breeding techniques then that is your business.

But to state that horsebreeders (say someone like Bazy Tankersely or Tesio) “know nothing” when they have produced many, many champions with these methods (something you have never done and know nothing about)…well, that’s a pretty bold move, don’t ya think?

Like me telling Picasso how to paint…:yes:

As fora critique of my breeding program…I’m not asking for one. But if I WAS, I would ask experienced horse breeders who know the history of breeding, know the terms, know how to read a pedigree AND have succeeded themselves. Not posters on a BB who are hung up on the idea of “incest” among animals.

Oh, and the term “cull” is used by all breeders and it doesn’t always mean a horse is unhealthy, it just means it’s not good enough to be kept in someone’s breeding program. Again, if you knew so much about breeding genetics you would know that excellence is hard to achieve and it is expected there be culls.

[grayarabpony]

Inbreeding and line breeding are not the same, so don’t talk about them as is there is no difference between the two practices. Don’t you get it? Close inbreeding is riskier than well, breeding that makes sense, and the results are higher that you will create serious problems. Not just an average or below average horse. I’m not arguing against the value of concentrating ancestors to some degree (line breeding), but the degree of concentrating ancestors is a key factor when weighing cost vs benefit.

All I need to do to critique your program is not to be a breeder myself, but just to look at your horses. I see average and below average. What have your horses done exactly? I won’t even be impressed if they’ve done 4th level dressage because my old instructor’s QH did that, and did a very good job of it. Lots of horses can do Prix St. George too.

Filming a 4 year old running around loose in a pasture doesn’t suffice. Nor does filming a Soprano filly slipping and stumbling in the mud and then proclaiming it better than a Totilas foal. The comparison to the Totilas foal is ultimately irrelevant because the video doesn’t show anything that is impressive anyway.

Say whatever you want. I’m putting you back on ignore. Have a nice life.

[Kyzteke]

Geeze, you really don’t know much at all do you?

I can tell you that whatever I’ve bred has won championships & inspections repeatedly as foals & young horses… (including the unimpressive filly you mentioned, who won her inspection and was graded Champion Filly)…after that it really depends on who is riding them, doesn’t it? After all, they can’t teach themselves.

And considering you haven’t bred Horse #1, nor do you ride/train yourself at any advanced level, do you REALLY think I give much weight to your opinion??

Oh, well…have fun sharing your vast knowledge of horseflesh, pedigrees and breeding terms with others…

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7193770]

All I need to do to critique your program is not to be a breeder myself, but just to look at your horses. I see average and below average. What have your horses done exactly? I won’t even be impressed if 4th level dressage because my old instructor’s QH did that, and did a very good job of it. Lots of horses can do Prix St. George too.

Filming a 4 year old running around loose in a pasture doesn’t suffice. Nor does filming a Soprano filly slipping and stumbling in the mud and then proclaiming it better than a Totilas foal. The comparison to the Totilas foal is ultimately irrelevant because the video doesn’t show anything that is impressive anyway.
QUOTE]

Ouch, GAP, you are entitled to your opinion but there’s no need to hit below the belt. Kyzteke has produced some high quality, premium scoring foals and more importantly, she takes the time to educate herself about responsible breeding which is more than can be said of many who breed horses, so your defamatory remarks are unnecessary.

PS. “Lots of horses can do Prix St. George”? I’m sure you are aware that there is a fundamental difference between horses that can carry out satisfactory movements for this level and horses that have the star quality to really shine at them. I had a coach who said that any trainable horse could “do” PSG movements. Whether or not that horse would be competitive (as I imagine your coach’s QH may not have been at 4th level) is very different. I have a friend who is currently competing at PSG on a Percheron/TB. I applaud him for working at it and attempting to break the mold, but his marks are consistently below 60% because his mare does not have the real sitting ability necessary for collection at that level and she never will because her breeding and conformation do not allow it. Yet, she can “do” PSG movements. Breeding dressage horses that may not have the ability to go Grand Prix but still have the quality to be competitive at 4th or PSG is, in my opinion, nothing to sneeze at.

[paulamc]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7195418]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7193770]
All I need to do to critique your program is not to be a breeder myself, but just to look at your horses. I see average and below average. What have your horses done exactly? I won’t even be impressed if 4th level dressage because my old instructor’s QH did that, and did a very good job of it. Lots of horses can do Prix St. George too.

Filming a 4 year old running around loose in a pasture doesn’t suffice. Nor does filming a Soprano filly slipping and stumbling in the mud and then proclaiming it better than a Totilas foal. The comparison to the Totilas foal is ultimately irrelevant because the video doesn’t show anything that is impressive anyway.
QUOTE]

Ouch, GAP, you are entitled to your opinion but there’s no need to hit below the belt. Kyzteke has produced some high quality, premium scoring foals and more importantly, she takes the time to educate herself about responsible breeding which is more than can be said of many who breed horses, so your defamatory remarks are unnecessary.

PS. “Lots of horses can do Prix St. George”? I’m sure you are aware that there is a fundamental difference between horses that can carry out satisfactory movements for this level and horses that have the star quality to really shine at them. I had a coach who said that any trainable horse could “do” PSG movements. Whether or not that horse would be competitive (as I imagine your coach’s QH may not have been at 4th level) is very different. I have a friend who is currently competing at PSG on a Percheron/TB. I applaud him for working at it and attempting to break the mold, but his marks are consistently below 60% because his mare does not have the real sitting ability necessary for collection at that level and she never will because her breeding and conformation do not allow it. Yet, she can “do” PSG movements. Breeding dressage horses that may not have the ability to go Grand Prix but still have the quality to be competitive at 4th or PSG is, in my opinion, nothing to sneeze at.[/QUOTE]

There is absolutely no reason to get so nasty here grayarabpony, people are just expressing their ideas. In a discussion about linebreeding and inbreeding there is always someone who is going to point out the very obvious risks, which we are already aware of

but so many of the great horses - stallions and mares are inbred - nothing sets type and sport ability like having a full brother and sister in the pedigree up to the 6th generation

if people bother to do the research and look up some of these important horses then it would be alot easier to have a discussion about all this instead of just airing commonly held and unoriginal ideas

so what if there are a few mistakes along the way - nothing great is ever achieved without a few risks and its all a learning curve

i have bred quite a few ordinary horses that were total outcrosses and i would rather take the risk on linebreeding to create something special and you bet i am looking for full brother and sister combinations

just because something is an outcross does not mean it will be a good horse

there are strict rules for breeding outcrosses as well for it to be successful

i am very interested in hearing from people who are linebreeding and inbreeding instead of listening to tedious knockers who are only spouting unoriginal ideas

Paulamc

[Pipkin]

My tb is very inbred, and has a full brother up the yard - they are both definately a few pennies short of a pound. That could be for any number of reasons though!

I suppose with inbreeding, if there is a genetic problem, it will come to light. This is both a good and a bad thing. If a stallion has a lot of linebred offspring, and they are healthy, it indicates that he is genetically healthy. To be honest, although I would personally never choose to breed a horse to a close relative, if I was looking for a gelding to buy, and he was sane and healthy, it wouldn’t put me off at all.

[FayeHanoverian]

I think the problem with line breeding horses is how to cull. It is very hard to see a horse’s potential as a baby and most people would be horrified by a breeder who put down young horses who didn’t seem up to par. However, once a horse has had time to mature you’ve invested a lot of money in that horse, often the breeder doesn’t even own the horse. While gelding obviously can’t reproduce stopping sub-par mares from being bred is challenging. I’m curious what breeders have done when they’ve produced a filly they don’t think should be bred.

It seems like the warmblood registries are more on top of this via stallion licensing and mare approval, but a lot of other breeds don’t require anything beside pure bred parents. Has one chosen to to register a youngster that they didn’t think should represent the breed?

[Kyzteke]

GAP obviously doesn’t know what she is talking about, and that fact has displayed itself very obviously in a number of other threads as well, where she got in heated arguments with a far more experienced & successful breeder than myself. She was completely in error but flat out would NOT admit it. So what can you do with those people? She apparently is not interested in educating herself at all, even when those offer sources for doing so.

And WHY she posts on a Breeding Forum when she doesn’t breed is also beyond me…BUT…all that is neither here nor there…

I would like to get back on track, because I’ve been having great fun with the Sporthorse Data base and reading up on some of the articles Paula recommended.

It has been very interesting. I always knew to look at a pedigree farther back and I always knew the importance of the damline. But between having access to stuff line a 12 generation pedigree and a computer program that does most of the work for you, it’s DEFINITELY deepened my knowledge of breeding.

So I’ve been looking up pedigrees of famous/influential stallions/mares to see what role (if any) close breeding (really tired of the inbreeding/linebreeding debate…I’m just calling it close breeding) and sex balancing played.

It has been very interesting indeed! The Tesio method likes to see sex-balanced (SB),close breeding (CB) in what is termed the engine room (G4-5-6). If you look at horses from virtually every breed, when you get back into G8-9-10-11-12 they are CBing like crazy…maybe because they were already marrying their cousins and only had a few horses to work with.

Now, I still wonder how much influence G-9-10-11 etc. have on Today’s Horse, other than the occasional throwback.

That said, I think it interesting to look at examples of things that worked and explore the pedigree. (and Paula…if I have anything wrong about what my interpretation of the Tesio method, feel free to correct me).

So: here is Bask+++. VERY famous Arab who was leading sire even a decade after he was dead.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=2389&blood=10&quota=double

Notice there is some CB in G4 but virtually no SB to speak of. Would you agree guys?

Now, I have a mare from the Bask line; she has 3 crosses.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10963987&time=1381081242

Much more CB/SB breeding in this mare even in the first 5 G. (And note her strong resemblance to Bask himself, even though neither her sire nor dam were particularly “Bask-like”). And if you go back to G12…WOW!
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10963987&blood=10&quota=xdouble

I bred her to Werigo (Dutch WB). 16.3h. Here is his pedigree:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10452279&blood=10&quota=double

So simply looking at the pedigrees (no fair cheating by looking up other pedigrees & threads), what would you predict the resulting foal would look like, move like, etc?

Who has the stronger pedigree (using the Tesio methods)? Maja or Werigo?

And would you consider this an “outcross” because they are different breeds?

[beowulf]

Kyzteke, Why are you continuing the insults and then saying “lets get back on track”? Both you and GAP are allowed your own opinions, that’s what makes this BB so diverse and rich.

As a nonbreeder myself I am a little taken aback you would believe that people who don’t breed are not entitled to post here. We still may have knowledge or something to contribute.

I agree with what Paula has said, instead of people with narrow scopes and narrow minds continuously regurgitating their professed opinions, I would like to see some other thoughts presented.

I have also wondered what the cull policy for mares is. I think most breeders, however “responsible” – if they don’t like a mare I believe they just move her on – perhaps to other breeding sheds with different aspirations. It’s been both my experience and opinion that mares are rarely culled at all.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7199968]
Kyzteke, Why are you continuing the insults and then saying “lets get back on track”? Both you and GAP are allowed your own opinions, that’s what makes this BB so diverse and rich.

As a nonbreeder myself I am a little taken aback you would believe that people who don’t breed are not entitled to post here. We still may have knowledge or something to contribute.

I agree with what Paula has said, instead of people with narrow scopes and narrow minds continuously regurgitating their professed opinions, I would like to see some other thoughts presented.

I have also wondered what the cull policy for mares is. I think most breeders, however “responsible” – if they don’t like a mare I believe they just move her on – perhaps to other breeding sheds with different aspirations. It’s been both my experience and opinion that mares are rarely culled at all.[/QUOTE]

GAP started it…I was actually pretty reserved in my comments.

And I’m not really looking for opinions from non-breeders because they are worth exactly nothing. The comments made by GAP illustrates this perfectly. Every comment she made can be disproved by actually LOOKING at pedigrees and learning about stuff like sex-balancing. And if you read Paula’s comments she is saying she isn’t interested in people who don’t know what they are talking about either ( btw, she’s a strong proponent of Tesio’s methods, which espouse linebreeding, brother/sister breeding and sex-balancing).

There are people who have an “opinion” that the moon landing was fake or the Holocaust never happened or that fairies exist. OK, free speech. But I personally tend to NOT value opinions by people who don’t know what the hell they are talking about. And I will not contribute to a thread if I have no knowledge of the subject. Like, if someone started a thread asking what sort of tractor they should buy for all-around farm work, I would NOT respond, because I don’t know. WHY is that so hard for people to admit? I would read the thread to try to learn, but I would not jump on and just “offer my opinion” based on basically nothing other than the fact I have one (an opinion, not a tractor :D) and I can type.

Maybe I’m just funny that way. As I noted to GAP, [I]just because you HAVE an opinion, doesn’t mean it’s valid.

[/I]Instead, I am looking for info from people who have actually bred horses, understand the terms, know how to look at a pedigree, etc. etc. and have actually USED the tools were are discussing. And then we can explore what these methods do and do not achieve.

Do you fit this criteria? Nah…you’re just looking to stir the pot, that’s all. If you want answers about breeding GO EDUCATE YOURSELF. That’s what most breeders do. I mean, your lack of knowledge just screams out from the comment “I would like to know the cull policy for mares is…”

Hint: breeders tend to be individuals, so there is no “policy”. They are horses and the owner can do what they choose to do with them. And just because a mare is “culled” from one program doesn’t mean she isn’t useful in another program (remember “culled” just means removed from someone’s breeding program). Example: a TB mare named Regal Band was “culled” from a top racing breeding program and sold because of non-production/fertility issues.

The breeder who bought her produced a Kentucky Derby winner o/o her.

Are you starting to “get” this subject is pretty complicated and just roaring into a thread giving your “opinion” may be making you feel like BMOC, but it isn’t adding anything at all to the discussion?

I’m hoping ‘yes’, but I’m thinking ‘no.’

You know, in some 10+ yrs at COTH I have never put anyone on “Ignore” but you & GAP may be my first.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7200030]
GAP started it…I was actually pretty reserved in my comments.

And I’m not really looking for opinions from non-breeders because they are worth exactly nothing. The comments made by GAP illustrates this perfectly. Every comment she made can be disproved by actually LOOKING at pedigrees and learning about stuff like sex-balancing. And if you read Paula’s comments she is saying she isn’t interested in people who don’t know what they are talking about either ( btw, she’s a strong proponent of Tesio’s methods, which espouse linebreeding, brother/sister breeding and sex-balancing).

There are people who have an “opinion” that the moon landing was fake or the Holocaust never happened or that fairies exist. OK, free speech. But I personally tend to NOT value opinions by people who don’t know what the hell they are talking about. And I will not contribute to a thread if I have no knowledge of the subject. Like, if someone started a thread asking what sort of tractor they should buy for all-around farm work, I would NOT respond, because I don’t know. WHY is that so hard for people to admit? I would read the thread to try to learn, but I would not jump on and just “offer my opinion” based on basically nothing other than the fact I have one (an opinion, not a tractor :D) and I can type.

Maybe I’m just funny that way. As I noted to GAP, [I]just because you HAVE an opinion, doesn’t mean it’s valid.

[/I]Instead, I am looking for info from people who have actually bred horses, understand the terms, know how to look at a pedigree, etc. etc. and have actually USED the tools were are discussing. And then we can explore what these methods do and do not achieve.

Do you fit this criteria? Nah…you’re just looking to stir the pot, that’s all. If you want answers about breeding GO EDUCATE YOURSELF. That’s what most breeders do. I mean, your lack of knowledge just screams out from the comment “I would like to know the cull policy for mares is…”

Hint: breeders tend to be individuals, so there is no “policy”. They are horses and the owner can do what they choose to do with them. And just because a mare is “culled” from one program doesn’t mean she isn’t useful in another program (remember “culled” just means removed from someone’s breeding program). Example: a TB mare named Regal Band was “culled” from a top racing breeding program and sold because of non-production/fertility issues.

The breeder who bought her produced a Kentucky Derby winner o/o her.

Are you starting to “get” this subject is pretty complicated and just roaring into a thread giving your “opinion” may be making you feel like BMOC, but it isn’t adding anything at all to the discussion?

I’m hoping ‘yes’, but I’m thinking ‘no.’

You know, in some 10+ yrs at COTH I have never put anyone on “Ignore” but you & GAP may be my first.[/QUOTE]

Pointing fingers and insulting people is a little childish. There are plenty of people on this forum off the top of my head that do not partake in breeding that have a wealth of important, relevant knowledge.

Ill overlook that you’ve insulted me a few times and called whatever knowledge I have useless/not relevant. I peruse this forum because breeding/repro of sport horses is something I studied in college and wish to partake in the future. Learning from a reproduction vet was a highlight of my college career. I am on the forum to gather knowledge before I commit to breeding – I do this so I don’t have to cull a mediocre horse in the future. You don’t need to define breeding terms to me, I know them. You don’t have to take my word for granted, but there’s no reason for the incensed insults. Instead of nitpicking words of other posters that I reiterated, you could educate yourself! Then you wouldn’t be in this little conundrum with GAP and I.

You didn’t start this thread, why are you offended people are inferring their opinion? Wasn’t that the OPs point? To ask for opinions?

[Kyzteke]

@beowulf;7200048

Pointing fingers and insulting people is a little childish.

Are you kidding?! After the comment YOU made to me on the H/J forum? PLEASE, Pot, stop calling Kettles black…(don’t bother to look folks…the Mod edited it out).

I don’t know who you studied under, but they didn’t do a very good job, because if you had “studied” breeding you would not be asking some of these questions (like the cull “policy”).

And yes, I SAID IT!! I am not interested in hearing opinions from people who have no knowledge in the subject!!! PERIOD!

So all you politically correct folks out there, stone me now!!

I know it’s popular these days for everyone to think they have equally valid “opinions” (especially here on COTH), but I come from the Old Days…where you kept real quiet while you were learning and didn’t offer an opinion till at least you had a working knowledge of the subject. I mean, while you were in college did you suddenly leap up and start arguing with your professor?

If you want to have an opinion about some like broccoli or the movie “WWZ” (I thought it stunk), fine. But really…do you think when they were building the space shuttle NASA started a chat room and asked for “opinions” on how to do it?:rolleyes:

Horse breeding has been going on for hundreds of years and there are a number of “theories” about how to produce a good horse. This knowledge is out there via books, websites like the one Paula recommended and many other avenues. I don’t agree with Paula that stuff like linebreeding/inbreeding/sex-balancing, etc (basically Tesio) is quite the magic bullet, but it has been proven successful far more than it has been proven a failure. And for 2 pgs I offered GAP links to illustrate this.

Was she interested? No, and that showed me that she was NOT interested in education…just arguing. I’m pretty sure you are on that same page, otherwise you’d be reading those same links…

So yes, opinions by people who know virtually nothing about a subject are of no use to me whatsoever. Zero. Nada. Goose egg.

Anyway, off to learn how to work the Ignore Button.

[grayarabpony]

Paula and Tradewind,

Oh please. I’m not getting nasty or hitting below the belt, I’m saying what I think of K’s breeding program. Don’t like it? Tough bananas. It is ridiculous for someone to claim they’re breeding world class horses to everyone with nothing concrete to back it up. I could care a less about foal awards.

And Paula, if you’re going to critique me, be sure and chastise K. for being nasty why don’t you. And yourself why you’re at it.

All you have to do is look at Cztantigo and Ardceltic Art to see why close inbreeding is a bad idea. If you can’t see that – well, I’d hardly give you kudos for being original, or having good sense. Everyone on this thread doesn’t have to agree with you, and there’s no reason why they should.

Tradewind, btw, you’re you’re wrong about my old instructor’s QH. He wasn’t a short little stock horse type, and even if he was, she had him going correctly so that she turned an OK mover into a very nice mover. That’s what dressage is supposed to do – in spite of all of the protestations of posters in the dressage forum who don’t know any better.

Most of the top horses in English sport today are not highly inbred.

[beowulf]

The comment I left you was well deserved. It was nowhere near as nasty as you have been. Your posts on this forum prove that. I didn’t ask what the cull policy was. I reiterated what another poster said, and inferred in my experience mares were not culled, rather, they were usually moved to different breeding sheds with different aspirations. You further reiterated this, proving what my experience was as correct when you mentioned Regal Band.

Fwiw, I am not “stirring the pot”. If you read the OPs question and saw the first reply, you would have noted I provided those helpful links. Instead, you elect to argue, insult, and throw walls of irrelevant text to everyone. The OP wanted an opinion. She got opinions. You are not the moderator of opinions, so your whining that people’s opinions are worthless to you is really not necessary.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=paulamc;7199549]

There is absolutely no reason to get so nasty here grayarabpony, people are just expressing their ideas. In a discussion about linebreeding and inbreeding there is always someone who is going to point out the very obvious risks, which we are already aware of

but so many of the great horses - stallions and mares are inbred - nothing sets type and sport ability like having a full brother and sister in the pedigree up to the 6th generation

if people bother to do the research and look up some of these important horses then it would be alot easier to have a discussion about all this instead of just airing commonly held and unoriginal ideas

so what if there are a few mistakes along the way - nothing great is ever achieved without a few risks and its all a learning curve

i have bred quite a few ordinary horses that were total outcrosses and i would rather take the risk on linebreeding to create something special and you bet i am looking for full brother and sister combinations

just because something is an outcross does not mean it will be a good horse

there are strict rules for breeding outcrosses as well for it to be successful

i am very interested in hearing from people who are linebreeding and inbreeding instead of listening to tedious knockers who are only spouting unoriginal ideas

Paulamc[/QUOTE]

Before spouting off a lot of insults it would have been better if you had re-read my posts for comprehension first, since clearly you have not yet. I didn’t say all line-breeding was bad, I said that close inbreeding was not a good idea. But I bet you won’t comprehend this post either, just throw out more insults.

Actually K. doesn’t really seem to grasp the reality of the risks of close inbreeding at all. You either.

[Kyzteke]

First of all, to clarify: if ANYONE can find a post where I declare I am breeding “world class” horses, please post it. That being said, considering I breed on a budget and sell 95% of my horses as foals, I can only do so much. However, 80% of the sporthorse foals I have bred have won their inspections and/or been graded Gold/Premium (depending on registry). I do not show (too expensive) but the second time I did (in 14 yrs) I showed 2 of my homebred mares in-hand under judge Wm. Solyntjes (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?188822-William-Solyntjes-heard-of-him)

One won her class and the Mare Championship. Another finished 2nd. And I won the Breeder’s Group as well. Since I actually VALUE Mr. Solyntjes opinion (why? Because he actually knows what he’s talking about), I feel I’m on the right track. I am constrained by money & time, but actual breeders and upper level riders seem to think I’m doing ok…so I keep plugging along. If anyone would like a link to the show results, I’d be happy to post it.

Now, for the two experts on the board, let’s see how much their opinions are backed by knowledge.

Let’s look at Impressive, because he’s a real scourge of breeding, isn’t he? Isn’t he the one everyone brings up? Well, when I looked up his pedigree, I was pretty surprised:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10496919

Oh, look! He is HEAVILY inbred to Three Bars (like 44%) and it’s sex-balanced too!! So is that where HYPP came from? Nope…it did not. It gave Impressive his looks, his almost perfect conformation (according to QH people who saw him and show records…I think he was virtually undefeated), and his propensity to be extremely prepotent in the breeding shed.

And of course, he WAS an HYPP carrier (he did not have the disease himself). But that did NOT come from Three Bars.

How do we know this for sure? GAP? Beowulf?

But he is a perfect example of both the success of linebreeding/inbreeding and it’s pitfalls.

Again, there are things you can produce via this route that raises the odds of producing excellence by quite a bit. Does it ALWAYS work? Alot of things don’t work 100% of time, but does that mean you NEVER do them it?

[vineyridge]

Take a look at this pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/coronation

This was a truly great race mare. She won a 5f race and 1100 meters at 3; at 4 she won at a mile and then went on to win the Arc at 2400 meters.

Ksar, to whom she was closely bred, won everything French, including the Arc twice, and he was also very closely bred to Omnium, who was an excellent race horse. Ksar’s sire was a grandson of Omnium, who was also Ksar’s damsire.

BUT Coronation never produced a live foal. Kind of makes you think.