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Linebreeding

Sport Horse Breeding
#61

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7200471]
Take a look at this pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/coronation

This was a truly great race mare. She won a 5f race and 1100 meters at 3; at 4 she won at a mile and then went on to win the Arc at 2400 meters.

Ksar, to whom she was closely bred, won everything French, including the Arc twice, and he was also very closely bred to Omnium, who was an excellent race horse. Ksar’s sire was a grandson of Omnium, who was also Ksar’s damsire.

BUT Coronation never produced a live foal. Kind of makes you think.[/QUOTE]

Hey, remember that Hungarian TB mare who never lost a race…this was WAAY back in the day. Her name started w/ a"K" and meant “treasure”. But I’m having a senior moment.

Do you know her name? I wonder what her pedigree was?

As for Coronation, I think fertility is definitely a genetic factor and should be important. However race horse breeders don’t traditionally breed for this…and if they do it’s far down on the list. So was her dam or granddam particularly prolific?

#62

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7201080]
Hey, remember that Hungarian TB mare who never lost a race…this was WAAY back in the day. Her name started w/ a"K" and meant “treasure”. But I’m having a senior moment.

Do you know her name? I wonder what her pedigree was?

As for Coronation, I think fertility is definitely a genetic factor and should be important. However race horse breeders don’t traditionally breed for this…and if they do it’s far down on the list. So was her dam or granddam particularly prolific?[/QUOTE]

Kincsem. :slight_smile: Remarkable mare - her sire was English-classics placed, not sure about her dam. All of her foals were either stakes winners, stakes producers, or both. She died fairly young of colic.

#63

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7200471]
Take a look at this pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/coronation

This was a truly great race mare. She won a 5f race and 1100 meters at 3; at 4 she won at a mile and then went on to win the Arc at 2400 meters.

Ksar, to whom she was closely bred, won everything French, including the Arc twice, and he was also very closely bred to Omnium, who was an excellent race horse. Ksar’s sire was a grandson of Omnium, who was also Ksar’s damsire.

BUT Coronation never produced a live foal. Kind of makes you think.[/QUOTE]

She was very closely inbred. Holy moly.

It’s worth noting that Tesio’s best and most famous horses were not highly inbred.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nearco

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ribot

http://www.pedigreequery.com/braque

Donatello http://www.pedigreequery.com/donatello2 and Cavliere D’ Arpino http://www.pedigreequery.com/donatello2 were heavily line-bred.

#64

Ksar was supposed to have been a “shy” breeder. Coronation’s dam had ten foals between 1946 and 1961, and four of those were by the Tourbillon son, Djebel. One of them was black type placed.

Coronation’s tail female granddam had nine foals.

#65

Well I will simply post the pedigree of our 2012 Jaguar Mail colt, which is decidedly and purposefully line bred, and leave it at that for now. Note that Almé is not highlighted, although he is there twice, but once as Almé and once as Almé Z.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cougar+mail

Obviously this thread has become a bit of a train wreck. Someone can PM me if it ever gets back to being a reasonable discussion.

#66

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;7201256]
Well I will simply post the pedigree of our 2012 Jaguar Mail colt, which is decidedly and purposefully line bred, and leave it at that for now. Note that Almé is not highlighted, although he is there twice, but once as Almé and once as Almé Z.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cougar+mail

Obviously this thread has become a bit of a train wreck. Someone can PM me if it ever gets back to being a reasonable discussion.[/QUOTE]

I love Jaguar Mail. What an interesting thought. I will have to see how your Cougar progresses. JM has, on his TB side, one of my favorite sporting lines to see in a TB pedigree. What are your aspirations for Cougar?

#67

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;7201256]
Well I will simply post the pedigree of our 2012 Jaguar Mail colt, which is decidedly and purposefully line bred, and leave it at that for now. Note that Almé is not highlighted, although he is there twice, but once as Almé and once as Almé Z.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cougar+mail

Obviously this thread has become a bit of a train wreck. Someone can PM me if it ever gets back to being a reasonable discussion.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to have driven you off, M O’Connor. Your foal is a good example of thoughtful linebreeding to superior ancestors who have been proven to perform and to pass on performance. The llinebreeding is all pretty far back and well balanced.

My belief is that breeding is pretty much a genetic crapshoot. What wise breeders do is try and maximize the odds in their favor. Breeding to the same ancestor multiple times in a pedigree is one way to mazimize the odds. The only real debate left is “how close is too close.” Certainly close inbreeding has resulted in superior animals just as often as it has produced genetic cripples. It really just comes down to a breeder’s risk tolerance. That’s probably why close inbreeding is not done often.

#68

Look at it now. I edited Ahorn’s pedigree to show his sire as Alme instead of Alme Z.

Leon Melchior had/has an annoying habit of adding “Z” to the name of horses he buys, which causes a certain amount of confusion when trying to research bloodlines. And just as annoying is the KWPN habit of renaming horses from other registries to fit its naming conventions. Thanks to Melchior and KWPN, the great Ramiro shows up in bloodlines as Ramiro, Ramiro Z, G Ramiro, and G Ramiro Z. :rolleyes:

#69

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;7201256]
Well I will simply post the pedigree of our 2012 Jaguar Mail colt, which is decidedly and purposefully line bred, and leave it at that for now. Note that Almé is not highlighted, although he is there twice, but once as Almé and once as Almé Z.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cougar+mail

Obviously this thread has become a bit of a train wreck. Someone can PM me if it ever gets back to being a reasonable discussion.[/QUOTE]

And the point of your posting his pedigree is what? He’s an unproven 2 year old.

This one: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?408479-Jaguar-Mail-colt-How-will-these-bloodlines-be-regarded

#70

[QUOTE=Bats79;7192575]
Impressive had the defective gene but he didn’t have it as a result of linebreeding. However line breeding caused it to show in it’s deadly form. So, the disease wasn’t caused by line breeding but by doubling (tripling) up on a trait that Impressive had so was distributed by line breeding. (Does that make sense?)[/QUOTE]

The real problem with Impressive was less that people line-bred to him and more that they just used him too much. He had over 50,000 descendants when HYPP was finally isolated and traced to him… and he was still alive and breeding!

#71

Back to the OP’s post:

[QUOTE=daffodil01;7185500]
How close is too close? Came across a lovely filly whose Grandsire is the same on both sides of her pedigree. He’s a very nice horse, but is this too close or commonly done? Any worries considering this filly as a broodmare prospect? TIA[/QUOTE]

To my mind, this question is very different if you are looking at a living horse on the ground versus a theoretical mating.

The risk of inbreeding is that you are more likely to double up on unfortunate recessives.

HOWEVER. Once you have an individual on the ground who appears healthy and useful, you can assume that there are no especially dangerous recessives in that individual, at least not to any greater extent than any other horse may have. (After all, outcrosses can create dangerous recessive combinations too.)

So, if you’re looking at a very young filly who is not yet in work, you might be a bit wary. But if this is an older filly and she’s strong and healthy and fabulous, I’d have no reservations on buying her as a performance animal. As a breeding animal, a horse that is linebred or inbred and also a strong, useful individual is somewhat more likely to pass on those characteristics you admire.

#72

[QUOTE=poltroon;7201341]
Back to the OP’s post:

To my mind, this question is very different if you are looking at a living horse on the ground versus a theoretical mating.

The risk of inbreeding is that you are more likely to double up on unfortunate recessives.

HOWEVER. Once you have an individual on the ground who appears healthy and useful, you can assume that there are no especially dangerous recessives in that individual, at least not to any greater extent than any other horse may have. (After all, outcrosses can create dangerous recessive combinations too.)

So, if you’re looking at a very young filly who is not yet in work, you might be a bit wary. But if this is an older filly and she’s strong and healthy and fabulous, I’d have no reservations on buying her as a performance animal. As a breeding animal, a horse that is linebred or inbred and also a strong, useful individual is somewhat more likely to pass on those characteristics you admire.[/QUOTE]

In bold, true for the individual but not necessarily the cross, and by that I’m sure you meant doubled up undesirable recessive genes. A recessive gene will not be expressed unless it’s doubled up, and siblings only share 50% of alleles on average. You can’t be sure about dangerous recessives until you’ve done a number of crosses with a particular pair. And the thing is, an individual can end up with more than one pair of recessives or incomplete dominant genes that are not desirable.

Really, until there is genome mapping, close inbreeding is rather a dangerous blind stab.

#73

[QUOTE=poltroon;7201335]
The real problem with Impressive was less that people line-bred to him and more that they just used him too much. He had over 50,000 descendants when HYPP was finally isolated and traced to him… and he was still alive and breeding![/QUOTE]

Actually, I think the REAL problem was when HYPP was first discovered in the breed was 1996 or 97. A vet gave a presentation on it.

AQHA finally insisted on testing in 2007. Only took 'em 10 years to act…that’s close to 3 generations of horses. They MADE members test horses (finally) because they sure weren’t doing it before.

No wonder Viney was freaking out over introducing another health issue into warmbloods.

#74

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7201547]
Actually, I think the REAL problem was when HYPP was first discovered in the breed was 1996 or 97. A vet gave a presentation on it.

AQHA finally insisted on testing in 2007. Only took 'em 10 years to act…that’s close to 3 generations of horses. They MADE members test horses (finally) because they sure weren’t doing it before.

No wonder Viney was freaking out over introducing another health issue into warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

He had ~50,000 descendants in 3 breed registries before he died in 1995. The problem was huge really before it was recognized, and that in turn didn’t make it any easier for AQHA (or ApHC or APHA) to act… because so many people, especially those who were big players in showing at halter, had a financial stake in these animals. And not a small one - in some cases, people might have been wiped out.

This is a narrowing of the gene pool, where a particular sire becomes inordinately popular (and it didn’t help that Impressive was a halter sire, not a performance sire). He sired in excess of 2,200 foals over 24 years.

I certainly blame AQHA for their slow movement, but at the same time their position was very difficult even had they wanted to act immediately and thoroughly.

As guardians of our horse breeds, it’s wise to be aware of these things and to do our best to limit them while the problems are still small and manageable.

In the case of Impressive, HYPP appears to be a point mutation and it in fact was rewarded in the halter show ring - it was part of what made him seem desirable in those first 20 years of breeding. This is an advantage we have in warmbloods, where performance is what matters rather than appearance.

#75

[QUOTE=Mara;7201129]
Kincsem. :slight_smile: Remarkable mare - her sire was English-classics placed, not sure about her dam. All of her foals were either stakes winners, stakes producers, or both. She died fairly young of colic.[/QUOTE]

Yes!! Thank you.

Her pedigree (12 G)
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=576236&blood=10&quota=xdouble

Heavily linebred and sex-balanced. Now…how did those guys back then figure this out?

#76

[QUOTE=poltroon;7201667]

As guardians of our horse breeds, it’s wise to be aware of these things and to do our best to limit them while the problems are still small and manageable.

In the case of Impressive, HYPP appears to be a point mutation and it in fact was rewarded in the halter show ring - it was part of what made him seem desirable in those first 20 years of breeding. This is an advantage we have in warmbloods, where performance is what matters rather than appearance.[/QUOTE]

So true…and because the symptoms are so slight in some horses, I have no doubt some breeders just ignored them.

It’s true…if all a horse has to do is stand there and look pretty, you can’t really judge its worth.

#77

http://roster.alkhamsa.org/pedigrees/E/El_Masree0a67c.HTML

Some real line breeding here.

#78

With the advice of knowledgeable breeders who know the in and outs of the two horses I plan to breed I am going through with a grandson to granddam breeding. They nick in genotype and phenotype. Not a great deal of horses out there with their breeding either. However, there is a great deal of variety through the dam of the grandson in comparison to the granddam so it isn’t super close in all areas. I would only attempt to linebreed with great discretion and to know not only the conformation behind the two individuals but that of the ones behind them as well as what faults they typically propogated and did not into the next generation. Not too keen on linebreeding again the next generation out from what I am going to do. If resulting foal were to be bred down the line it would be to an outcross. I don’t wish to breed to many of the “MR halter” type Arabians out there as they do not conform to the standard which I hold as a breeder, owner and exhibitor personally. That gene pool is much too shallow. My gelding who I love dearly is a grandson of two of the most common MR Halter type stallions of a certain time frame - Bey Shah+ and Magnum Psyche. I don’t like the idea of a breed being forced into a genetic corner due to quality horses not being bred of rarer bloodlines. Harder to market perhaps but I am a fan of quality versus quantity. :wink:

#79

[QUOTE=melhorse;7201793]
http://roster.alkhamsa.org/pedigrees/E/El_Masree0a67c.HTML

Some real line breeding here.[/QUOTE]

I spy Norus and Gharib. Instantly caught my eye. Intense linebreeding there - or would that be considered inbreeding? Easy to not find the fine line between the two at times.

#80

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7201154]
She was very closely inbred. Holy moly.

It’s worth noting that Tesio’s best and most famous horses were not highly inbred.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nearco

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ribot

http://www.pedigreequery.com/braque

Donatello http://www.pedigreequery.com/donatello2 and Cavliere D’ Arpino http://www.pedigreequery.com/donatello2 were heavily line-bred.[/QUOTE]

There is not much point looking at a 5 generation pedigree of a horse to determine how much linebreeding and inbreeding there is
with Nearco and Ribot, the duplications dont start until the 4th and 5th generations really but both horses , particularly Nearco are inbred to superior females, sons and daughters of mares, and alot of sex balanced line breedingwhich you will not see often until you go a bit further back

Paulamc

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