I’m glad Little Cliff is safe. Curious - foal papers? I don’t know who bred him - or who all owned him. How would Zito have had his foal papers? With change of ownership - are not the papers returned to the JC to be updated. Also if gelded, etc. I am just wondering when the Zitos had LC - and when they attached rescue info on his papers.
For the JC - do foal papers equate to registration papers? And as horse changes hands/circumstances - returned to JC and then re-issued updated? Wondering how to make sure special stickers are not overlooked/lost in any process.
[QUOTE=grayarabs;3236478]
I’m glad Little Cliff is safe. Curious - foal papers? I don’t know who bred him - or who all owned him. How would Zito have had his foal papers? With change of ownership - are not the papers returned to the JC to be updated. Also if gelded, etc. I am just wondering when the Zitos had LC - and when they attached rescue info on his papers.
For the JC - do foal papers equate to registration papers? And as horse changes hands/circumstances - returned to JC and then re-issued updated? Wondering how to make sure special stickers are not overlooked/lost in any process.[/QUOTE]
Papers aren’t returned to the jockey club. You just sign over the papers by signing the back of them.
Stickers on papers can get overlooked. Many times, trainers won’t even see the foal papers because they get sent from track to track (most tracks give preference on entry when foal papers are registered in the racing office of that particular track).
[QUOTE=Marli;3236385]
Update-
Wanted to share some new pics taken this afternoon of Little Cliff. Christy said he was feeling pretty darned frisky today and he’s nearly completely over the strangles, should be getting his health clearance soon. He sure is a handsome fella!
Sidenote: I had another very nice conversation w/his former owner [La Buzz] this morning and I would like to convey that from the start, she had no knowledge of what happened to this horse. According to questions asked of her trainer, he’s stated that he gave the horse to a man that said he’d get a home, that’s all that’s known [we do know the name of the man however he did nothing illegal/slaughter is still legal].
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered00.jpg[/QUOTE]
Then the blame falls on Ramon Preciado for not caring and sending him down the road. Hopefully, La Buzz has taken any other horses away from Preciado for his lack of judgement in this case.
Zito was Cliff’s first trainer. He was stakes placed while racing for him. Bob LaPenta is in the business of racing top class colts and when Cliff didn’t “step it up” and proved a bit slower than stakes ability at 3 he was sold to run at a level at which he could be competitive. The Zito’s put that sticker on all of their horse’s papers.
LA Buzz, I hope that if in fact you were decieved by your trainer, and this appears to be the case, you will reconsider using him. I don’t know more about him that his stats from the DRF but one way to keep these things from happening is for owners to refuse to hire such people. If your trainer was so quick to send Cliff to a killer, I tend to doubt that this was the first time he’d ever “made that call.” If owners (who write the checks and call the shots) wont hire trainers who are easy to call a kill buyer then they will eventually be forced out.
It may be trivial, but if he “sold” Cliff while telling you he was “given away to nice people with a farm …etc”, then he also has stolen from you. He sold your property while telling you that said property (the horse) had no monetary value and should be given away.
ditto to linny.
I’ve heard several trainers talk about the “guy” who comes around saying he’ll find “good homes” for the horses. Most of them know what really happens, and learned the hard way (but they learned pretty quickly). I find it hard to believe any trainer who’s been around the track for more than a few years (actually, more than a few weeks, but I’ll be generous) wouldn’t know the dealer and where the horses are actually headed.
There are a few trainers that I know of you really do have several contacts for usable horses. I see their former racers showing up on for sale sites looking lovely, shiny and jumping courses etc.
Most people who have worked at tracks for any period of time become familiar with who the “killers buyers” are vs. legit outplacers. In todays world (esp. the current economy) the TB is regarded by many H/J people as cheap and/or disposable. OTTB’s are not the main souce of potential show horses as there once were. Racing (adminitrators, owners trainers etc ALL need to work on this issue.
Greyarabs, foal papers stay with the horse. The JC doesn’t get them back up updates. It is required that they be on file at the track when a horse races. If a horse goes from one owner to another vai the claim box, the papers stay in the same office, possibly moved to a different trainers file. Generally the new owner or trainers never looks at them. The clerk in the Horsemans Ofice may be the only one to see “papers” until it’s too late.
I am in favor of requiring at least a copy of all papers everytime a horse leaves or enters a track. Some tracks require it but most are very lax.
[QUOTE=Linny;3236630]
I don’t know more about him that his stats from the DRF but one way to keep these things from happening is for owners to refuse to hire such people. If your trainer was so quick to send Cliff to a killer, I tend to doubt that this was the first time he’d ever “made that call.” If owners (who write the checks and call the shots) wont hire trainers who are easy to call a kill buyer then they will eventually be forced out.
It may be trivial, but if he “sold” Cliff while telling you he was “given away to nice people with a farm …etc”, then he also has stolen from you. He sold your property while telling you that said property (the horse) had no monetary value and should be given away.[/QUOTE]
This happens in all breeds, sadly. The difference is, for example, in American Saddlebreds, the trainer will tell the owner that the horse is “no count”, and say- “I sold him to X who gave me $$ for him- here ya go”. The reality is that there are about a half dozen dealers who will stop by, write the check, take a good look at the horses tail- if the trainer hasn’t cut it off (hair only) already- and sell the horse, with or without his tail, at one of the Amish sales- many times, right up here in PA. The Amish love a good ASB in front of the carriage. The tail is, many times, sold for several times what the horse brought. MANY trainers will sell a higher quality horse without their papers- no chance for them to turn up and embarass them later…
Owners are, IMHO, just not quick enough, or savvy enough, to question the trainers. If they were, much less of this stuff would be able to happen.
Know Who Your Local Dealers Are!!
[QUOTE=caffeinated;3236657]
ditto to linny.
I’ve heard several trainers talk about the “guy” who comes around saying he’ll find “good homes” for the horses. Most of them know what really happens, and learned the hard way (but they learned pretty quickly). I find it hard to believe any trainer who’s been around the track for more than a few years (actually, more than a few weeks, but I’ll be generous) wouldn’t know the dealer and where the horses are actually headed.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been working in rescue for almost 10 years and have been assisting with pulling horses from kill pens for almost 5 years. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve contacted a former owner, a breeder or trainer and been told that they had found the horse a “good home.” Dealers, backstretch buyers, even other trainers sometimes, will tell unsuspecting people (owners, trainers, etc…) that they have a wonderful home lined up or that the horse will be a 4-H prospect, pony clubber, broodmare, etc… They do it all the time and often take these horses directly to auction. I can give you a long list of horses like this. We just rescued one three weeks ago who was “on a retirement farm in Delaware.” We found him in the direct to slaughter pen, just like Little Cliff. This horse had also earned close to $250k. I knew the last trainer and know he wouldn’t have done this intentionally. He and the owners were sick to hear where the horse had ended up and that he had escaped going to slaughter literally by an hour or so. The horse is now safe, getting ready to be gelded and will have about a year off (sesamoid fracture) before he’s adopted out and protected by a contract (and yes, I do know that nothing is foolproof.)
If you’d like the names of your local dealers or backstretch buyers, I’d be happy to give you any names that I know via private message. And if you know who your local kill buyers are, please let us know. We’re making a list and would like it to be as inclusive as possible.
On another note, while notations on JC papers are not always seen, I would love to see the US do what the French Jockey Club has now implemented with a check off box on papers showing if breeders or owners would like to ensure that their horses do NOT end up slaughtered. Then the people in horse ID would be required to check the papers (some people in horse ID offices already do this routinely.) I would also love to see the horses “not to be slaughtered” microchipped and freeze branded (something small but easy to see) so that if their JC papers don’t always follow them in later years, people will know that someone, somewhere will ensure that the horse has a place to go if he/she needs it.
Rigoletto, the “sticker” on the papers is supposed to represent a “do not slaughter” contract. Not only the breeders, but anyone who has care and control of the horse may place the sticker there (or check the box) and say (in effect) “in the event that slaughter is your only option, call me!”
I would like to encourage any owner who finds that a horse of theirs has been shipped to killers without their knowledge, by their trainer to CEASE all business with this trainer. After a time, most track folks come to know which trainers are pretty willing to sell to killers. The guys who drive the trucks sure know. If you have been duped by someone, shout it from the rooftops! Blog about it, write to the DRF about it, send and email to a member of the racing media about it. Be sure that the name of that trainer who LIED to you and possibly stole from you is out there.
I would like track administration to take in interest in the issue by requiring that every horse removed from the track do so with his papers so any stickers etc are seen. As long as shipping horses intended for slaughter is legal, tracks will have a hard time banning killer buyers from their property. Their business, while grim is legal and tracks could be charged with restraint of trade.
Many industry leaders are involved in pressing for legislation banning such shipping. While I agree with the ban, any such legislation WILL leave the equine industries (ALL of them) with an even bigger problem, what to do with the horses that would have been slaughtered…
Racing industry officials need to get the word out about stratgies they are using to prevent these horrors. When the ravings of PETA spokespeople are all the general public hears, it’s time to get out the message about what the industry IS doing.
As for those in other horse sports who are bashing racing, my question is what have you done to help horses in your own sport? ASB’s and QH’s appear in huge numbers in kill pens. Abusive training tactics are rampant in all pursuits. Racing is the most public and thus the easiest target. Because it may have a higher percentage of fatalies than hunters doesn’t mean that all hunters are treated like gold and all racers are abused.
I would refer readers of this thread to the following article, written by a very close friend of mine. He and I have spoken at length about some of the issues that have come up over the last several weeks, Eight Belles, PETA and the slaughter issue. His wife owns and shows horses and he’s been in racing for many years. The bottom third or so of the column, is dedicated to a response to the HBO special on slaughter.
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=11622
No matter what it is said about slaughter, the reality is that there are not enough homes for all the horses out there.
For many, many reasons, a great number of horses end up in need of disposing in one way or another.
Thru slaughter, some of those horses have one more use in many ways.
That is being confused all along with those that can’t separate slaughter from abuse.
THAT is the big problem here, that some can’t see slaughter as the centuries old, still perfectly good way in most of the world to dispose of some of our unwanted horses, because all they can see is the rare or less rare abuse cases that is all we hear about, taken out of context many times.
I grew up where the horses at the end of their useful time were taken to the slaugtherhouse and euthanized, yes, that is the right word for what was happening there too.
There was NO difference to a horse from what we do here or at the veterinary clinic, the horse was handled the SAME and the end was the SAME.
We need to remember that, when people keep talking about abuse happening because “a horse was on his way to slaugher”, it is the persons handling the horse that are abusive and not all people abuse horses.
Remember not to let drama make you forget that a horse sold and hauled to slaughter without permission from the owners is not “slaughter’s” problem, it is a crooked trainer or trader’s problem.
Remember that horses abused in a pen going to slaughter is not because they are going to slaughter, it is because someone is abusive, no matter where the horses are going from there.
Those traders that abuse horses do that if they are going to another sale, to their holding/training pens or to slaughter.
There are real reasons some don’t want their horses slaughtered, but those kept being brought forth here are not germane to slaughter, but to abusive practices in general, that can happen no matter what the intended use of the horses being abused is.
Abuse is abhorrent, if a horse is on his way to slaughter or to another track or trainer or breeding farm or whatever.
Remember that, when we need to decide what to do with all those horses that really, honestly, our society doesn’t has use for.
LA Buzz stated that LC’s papers had as contact Re-Run. You know that now (how?)- did you know it when you had him? Why then did you/anyone on the LA Buzz staff not contact Re-Run?
If the stickers are on the papers - anyone involved with the horse should know it - and honor it. How did that not happen in this case? Asking to avoid it happening again in the future.
Re: JC papers - How does the JC keep their database updated when horses change hands?
I guess I don’t understand the JC in this regard.
For Arab registry- if memory serves - when horse is sold or gelded - papers are sent back to registry and re-issued updated. The new owner is listed on front of papers as well as breeder, reg no. DOB etc. I have no idea if “contact stickers” can be included - have not heard that - but would be a good idea - for all breeds.
Agree - when papers are missing etc would be nice to have another way to ID the horse - and a database to check if the horse has “stickers” - one would think through the breed registry. At least racing TB’s have tatoos. So if you called the JC to get info on a horse -would the JC have “sticker” info? CAnnot recall if that is how the rescuers discovered they had Little Cliff. Sorry - dumb questions - but it seems to me there is a hole in the system somewhere. There are folks that want their horses to be safe - and that is not always happening.
[QUOTE=grayarabs;3237692]
If the stickers are on the papers - anyone involved with the horse should know it - and honor it. How did that not happen in this case? .[/QUOTE]
What I think you’re not understanding is that JC foal papers are handled differently than a lot of other breeds. The foal papers are turned in to the racing office and honestly, no one looks at them once identity is confirmed. It’s just how it is and there isn’t anything wrong with that. When the papers are folded into an envelope, you only see a small portion, also - so if you glance at them to confirm the name, you just see a bit of the papers.
They don’t. You can update ownership online if you want. When the horse runs, the ownership will be updated in Equibase, which is a subsidiary of the JC. But, the JC doesn’t track owners like the AQHA, etc. does. Papers aren’t sent back b/c horses need to be able to race back when after they change ownership. This is very helpful b/c it saves time and money! People always struggle with this concept, but once you get used to it, you love it!
[QUOTE=grayarabs;3237692]So if you called the JC to get info on a horse -would the JC have “sticker” info? [QUOTE]
No, the JC does not track this info and they don’t need to. They are not like other registries and they don’t need to be.
And, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again - people make a big deal about these ReRun stickers, but I’ve never seen one and I’ve never had anyone (including ReRun) be able to/bother with telling me how to obtain one. I’ve had an awful lot of people on the Internet act like I was an idiot for not knowing about them or using them but not one person has been able to give me any real information about them. It’s easy to bash owners and trainers, but apparently, it’s a lot harder to actually help us. And, yes, I’m feeling snarky - no offense to you grayarabs - and yes, I do have contact info. on my horses’ papers in the event they get claimed - just not these mythical, magical stickers. 
Re: Owners Response To The Rescue Of Little Cliff - Thoroughbred Times
Posted: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:04 PM
Previous owner responds to Little Cliff’s rescue
Writing on behalf of LA Buzz, of which I am a partner, I would like to present to the readership of the Thoroughbred Times the facts as we know them to be concerning the time between Little Cliff’s last race, his subsequent rescue from a direct-to-kill pen and the furor that has helped create amongst those following this story.
Up until the time that the first article was published online in mid April (click here to read the story), my partner and I believed that Little Cliff had been taken to a farm. Little Cliff had earned second money of $3,200 in his prior race for us, but got injured in the subsequent race and had to be vanned off the racetrack after the finish of his race.
After the trainer, Ramon Preciado, confirmed that Little Cliff would never race again, my partner contacted the general manager of the farm where he was bred to inquire if we could retire him there. Unfortunately, they were unable to assist. Thereupon, the trainer told us he would see to it that Little Cliff would get a good home, and indeed told us that he had a contact that had a local farm where we could visit him.
We had only good experiences with Ramon to that point, and had no reason to question his judgment or sincerity. The horse was released to Ramon, as our agent, solely to be retired, and we received no compensation, nor gave him any consent to receive any himself. What happened to him from the time he left the track to when he was found by the rescue people remains unknown to us, despite our many efforts to find out.
After Little Cliff left the track, Ramon told us about a sticker that was in with his foal papers. Upon inspection of the papers, we discovered a half-inch-square white paste-on sticker with ReRun’s phone number. Though we knew that Nick Zito had trained Little Cliff for the majority of his career, we had no idea of the extent of the involvement Kim Zito had with horse rescue, and had no way of knowing that she wanted to be contacted.
Partly because of what happened with Little Cliff, and partly because it was already in its formative stage already, the Pennsylvania Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association has begun an initiative to provide trainers with a place … to retire horses no longer able to race and in need of a home. Hopefully, the project will be successful in obtaining adequate financing and optimal results for the horse population at Philadelphia Park, so that what Little Cliff had to face does not happen again. LA Buzz is doing what it can to help.
LA Buzz indeed appreciates the efforts made by Another Chance For Horses on behalf of Little Cliff and the many other horses they have saved, and the efforts of all other horse rescue organizations. We also strongly condemn all horse slaughter and across the border horse transport for slaughter.
Contributions or assistance in providing homes should contact Turning For Home, in care of PTHA, P.O. Box 300, Bensalem, PA. 19020 or contact Barbara Luna of the HBPA office at Philadelphia Park
Respectfully submitted,
Robert Levin & Sheila Austrach
LA Buzz
Thanks for the response - we all know what you want to say about Ramon Preciado - there’s no need to say anything else about the matter. Ramon Preciado is what he is…
Sheila,
I’m glad that you’ve decided to take a proactive approach to what was a tragic situation. I must say one thing though. I find it inappropriate that you are using Little Cliff’s rescue and the hard work of Christy Sheidy and AC4H to ask for donations for the Philadelphia Park program that’s not even really off the ground yet. And isn’t a non profit at this point. I’m thrilled that the horses from Philly will have some protection, but have yet to see any evidence of anything actually happening. Have any horses been taken in yet? I wish you and ‘Turning for Home’ all the best and hope that other tracks will follow suit. Why don’t you fundraise on your own thread though. You had nothing to do with Little Cliff’s rescue and have taken every opportunity to bash me and others involved both publicly and privately (people talk.) I have nothing against you personally, but cut it out. Christy, Lisa and I helped save the horse’s life after those who should have been watching out for him dropped the ball. None of us ever said that you or Bob sent the horse to slaughter or had knowledge of the horse being sold for slaughter. That’s your issue. I’m glad that’s been cleared up. You were devastated when you found out as any decent person would have been. Kudos to you for doing something positive. But fundraise for the new program on your own thread on your own time. Not on Little Cliff’s or AC4H’s. It’s inappropriate.
Diana
Diana
[QUOTE=Introspect;3228607]
LA Buzz, thanks for the information. However, we’re still waiting for some type of clarity regarding how Little Cliff got from the barn to the kill pen supposedly under your trainer’s watch. Was your trainer duped by a third party? Do your trainer dupe you with the ‘good home’ story? The silence since your last post is deafening. What the heck happened?
I wish you would take a much closer look at your trainer. Ramon Preciado is widely known at The Pha for being brutal toward his horses and highly aggressive in treating their ailments. People don’t claim off of Preciado because when he drops them, the lemon is almost always squeezed totally dry. He is near the top at The Pha when it comes to horses being vanned off the track. Few breal em’ down like him.
Combined with his documented incidents and arrests for [edit], both on and off the track, the fuller picture of Preciado is one of a mean man without a conscience. My gut tells me that this wasn’t the first time a horse left his barn in a trailer bound for New Holland. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know.[/QUOTE]
Birds of a feather stick together. Just like this La Buzz Stable claiming…“but we don’t know anything”… as despicable as their trainer
They take the racing public and fans for a bunch of idiots. Who really believes the same old tired mantra…but “we thought he was going to a good home on a farm…” We didn’t know…blah,blah,blah. I’m waiting for the owners of the next “famous” horse found at NH to come up with more “novel” excuse.
All this La Buzz stable is interested in saying is "but we didn’t know…“we’re not responsible”. NEVER REPLYS to "what they did “know” and “what they did after they found out.”…NOTHING, until Little Cliff’s sorry tale made it to the racing media then the Buzz Stable shows up to say, “but we didn’t know” “We’re not responsible”, even (though we were the owners).
Get real.
Who believes that fairytale?
You mean they’d have some credibility if they dumped Preciado rather than kissing and making up?
[QUOTE=I’m EBO;3256205]
You mean they’d have some credibility if they dumped Preciado rather than kissing and making up?[/QUOTE]
:no: People of the same values and morals stick together… they find each other… the trainer is a “lowlife”, and you fill in the rest…like the same type of bird flocks with birds like him…birds of a feather …
not naive
well first off that’s the same old story as a dog “going to a farm” and being sent to be gassed.
and then if some one lied to you about that and sent your horse to the kill pen, wouldn’t you dump him and figure that he had cheated you on everything else?
and then, no one in racing in that area is ignorant of the new holland kill pen.
so…
I had emailed La Buzz and got a reply back wanting to know how I got their email, and what my “connection” was. I just wanted to know, how the horse got from the trainer to the kill pen, and who lied to who, and what was done about it. I wish they would answer that, and end the speculation, and let us know that whoever lied about the “good home” was at least publicly outed and reported to the track, and made known to other owners and trainers.
I haven’t received a reply to my email since telling them that the email is on the link on this forum, and I have no connection, other than being curious about as Paul Harvey used to say “the rest of the story”.
