That’s largely what makes the BB go round. 
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I just watched the whole thing on CMH and the parts that are getting the most criticism were edited out: flipping the horse, crashing into the fence, animal rights activists, and a few others are gone. They left in two uses of the term bird brain.
Even without those edits, now that I’ve seen it, I really think people are overreacting. Katie complimented all of them at various points, and every one of them ended on a good note, which she called out individually as they finished. When Luke’s horse lost a shoe in the middle, she made sure the horse’s people were ok with him continuing. I’m not much of a fan of Katie’s but the attention this is getting seems overblown to me. A few of the comments would have been better left unsaid for sure, but I suspect whoever mentioned this upthread was correct: this will likely be the last year we will be able to watch this clinic from home.
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I wish I could like this 100 times!
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What has become known as the “voorn clip” does start with the stirrup shortening discussion. Someone has certainly collated what I assume are the most controversial extracts, though not, I feel certain, to the point of manipulating what was said. I dont think it was ever a continuous piece of video as it suddenly jumps from folk riding down the grid to all standing around Katie where she then talks to them about use of the stick
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Using an example of flipping a horse over is referring to a cruel practice. Smashing a horse into a wall is cruel, unless it’s a last ditch effort to not die. Her description of using the whip was ridiculous, and… Yes, cruel. Conflicting aids are cruel.
Profound lack of real education, and in its place… Old school crap that, as a sport, we should be better than.
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Are you talking about the “smack and back” part? I didn’t see where she described what she meant by that or where she described how to use a stick. Maybe I missed that? Anyway, it sounds more stupid than cruel (again, unless there is more to it than I heard).
I believe she was demonstrating it, hard to see between the riders around her, as she was saying “smack and back”.
Basically reach back, smack and then hand back on reins in position.
That’s what I got from that clip.
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That’s what I saw too. I can’t figure out where the cruelty is in that.
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Absolutely zero doubt there is copyright infringement here. And I am totally befuddled by who would take the time to swipe the video, watch it all, note the timestamps, clip out each one of those scenes, paste 'em all back together, and export it for sharing. Like, wow. Someone has way too much time or one helluva grudge.
It was like a hit piece from a Russian troll farm trying to further divide American politics, and divide it did. Gods give me strength for the upcoming election season if this was enough to face us off.
We complain endlessly about how little the upcoming gens truly know about developing horses. That it’s hard work, gritty, and not nearly as pretty as the equitation ring makes it seem. And here we have a coach that has walked the talk and is asking for just one iota of grit from these kids, and the adults (none of whom are related to these kids, mind you) are losing their ever-loving minds because the precious darlings (who are demonstrably not following simple instructions in a sport where that can get you killed) got called “birdbrained”.
I just can’t. These are some of the most privileged teenagers & young adults in the entire country, and this whole outcry says that it is totally okay for them to completely fall apart at the slightest provocation while riding 6 figure sport pets in $8000 saddles and $1000 helmets around one of the sport’s most illustrious showgrounds. This is not a good look either.
These kids already spend half their time in perfectly manicured instagram worlds thinking that’s an accurate reflection of reality, and we do them no favors recreating a life of sunshine & rainbows & perfectly handled frustration whenever adversity arises.
And I say this as someone that’s all for safe spaces and really appreciative of trigger warnings. It pains me that I’m landing on the side of “kids are too soft these days” camp, but then I hear statistics of teen depression being at all time highs and can’t help but wonder if we’ve overcorrected, and neglected to prepare them for aspects of life that are both very real and very ugly: Pain, disappointment, embarrassment, betrayal, and people that are less than perfect.
KMP’s horse remarks were stupid and wrong, even though I land firmly in the hyperbole camp on them. But concerns about outward appearances, social license to operate, and freely giving ammunition to the RARAs, are justified. (FTR I inquired somewhere if it would be okay to say “Sit him down” instead of the definitely terrible ‘flip him over’ and was informed that was not okay either 🤷)
But to say KMP should be Safesported for bullying minors would be positively laughable if it weren’t so insulting to actual victims of abuse.
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No argument that ‘flipping a horse over’ is a cruel practice. The argument is whether that’s what she was actually advocating (which there is no proof of that I’m aware), whether it’s a common practice she has or did use (which there’s no proof of that I’m aware) or whether it was just unprofessional behavior and a poor choice of words. I don’t think folks who choose their words poorly should be treated like people who abuse horses. Likely they shouldn’t be invited to lead and teach rising pro’s when sessions are live-streamed. Words carry weight of course as does unprofessional behavior which should be addressed, but there is a distinction between that and abuse.
As to walls - using walls and other physical barriers when a horse won’t stop or for reinforcement when steering is very common with young horses, poorly trained horses, and well anyone who uses a round pen. There are quite literally thousands of amateur riders (particularly in dressage!) who steer almost completely with exterior physical boundaries b/c their aids aren’t as confirmed they should be. And I think most horses prefer that to being yanked (repeatedly) in the face.
In fairness, I’m not sure if that’s the same context you’re referencing here or if the idea was that someone would beat and goad a horse into running into a wall which is of course cruel, and very different than the scenario described, but if you’ve round-penned a horse, you’ve ‘run them into a wall’ or used a physical barrier to create movement or direction. And if you ride young horses, using walls and physical boundaries is SO helpful to them as they learn and much kinder than hauling away on their mouths.
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She went on to say something about Animal Rights Activists not knowing anything (they don’t) and that sometimes horses need a good lashing— which I do think was taking it too far.
But I, personally, loved “smack and back” because correct use of the whip seems to be a lost art these days.
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Well said dags! The logic leaps here are making my head spin:
- One of the most successful riders and trainers the US has ever produced as far as I can tell who is known to be a task master is filmed for a livestream.
- She purposely intends (with the whole world watching) to goad a participant into flipping their horse and to have a timid young rider do it on camera, injuring them both and ending her career and reputation. If the rider won’t flip the horse, she’d like the rider to smash the valuable horse into the fence, again - injuring them both on camera.
- She then brings all the young riders into a circle and encourages them to beat their horses mercilessly.
- She is simultaneously a rampant and cruel abuser of horses and people who while existing in plain view abuses horses (flipping them and beating them into submission) over decades. While there is not an ounce of evidence anyone has shared on this thread or otherwise that proves this is how she has conducted business for decades AND while it appears she is not well liked so any damning evidence that would exist would likely be revealed, that is irrelevant.
It boggles the mind.
The most likely conclusion for me appears to be: rough-and-tough trainer and rider is nearly 70, eccentric, grumpy and frustrated with what she perceives to be negative changes to the horse industry over the years. She’s not diplomatic, she’s not on board with Safe Sport and what she perceives to be ‘cancel culture’ in the horse industry and makes some comments to that effect. Again, if I’m wrong and she’s known to hop around actively flipping horses (or if this is a common practice in H/J land and I’m just ignorant about it, then well ok, I’m wrong and that’s insane).
I think US Equestrian made a mistake in their choice and members are well within their rights to be frustrated at what they perceive to be as unprofessional behavior and ‘rules for thee’. But the logic of the first narrative just seems completely unhinged to me.
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Yes - that is one of the comments that I would place under the bucket of “better left unsaid” in my first comment above so I agree with you here.
Somebody said that her description of how to use a whip was cruel, and that’s the part I didn’t hear so I was asking that poster for clarification.
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As for animal rights activists, can we please recognize that there are different versions of what that means? Not all want horses to never be ridden. What about what went on at Helgstrand? I didn’t like that—does that make me an activist? When high profile horse trainers publicly denounce animal rights activists I always think how stupid and unnecessarily us-verses-them it is.
As for stopping straight, some ways she could find would be running it into the wall or ripping its face out. Depending on how the horse reacted to that, e.g., badly, then she could flip it over for disobeying. Sounds nice.
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Right - I agree with you here and am a dressage rider so sensitive to the Helgstrand stuff which I found to be unacceptable. I don’t want to derail the thread but I will say - just as I’m sure it goes in the h/j world, in the dressage world it’s very obvious who campaigns for the purpose of showing/money/etc and who doesn’t. It’s also very obvious who pushes the horses beyond what I think any good horse person would deem fair. I don’t patronize these people and I hope those folks modify their approach for the betterment of the horses and to safeguard the sport we all know and love.
But, I didn’t see anything in this video that’s any different from what I see during an average show jumping round. I see riders hauling away on their horses when jumping all the time - but maybe I just have an ignorant eye here. I get that if the video showed someone flipping a horse, or running a horse into a wall or beating a horse that would be the case, but it just didn’t based on what I could see. I think what people took issue with here were the words and the clinician’s manner. Which is well within their right to argue against, but in my experience, most people weight words over actions far too heavily. Not to make it political but look at the people we elect for goodness sake!?!
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KMP’s horse remarks were stupid and wrong, even though I land firmly in the hyperbole camp on them. But concerns about outward appearances, social license to operate, and freely giving ammunition to the RARAs, are justified. (FTR I inquired somewhere if it would be okay to say “Sit him down” instead of the definitely terrible ‘flip him over’ and was informed that was not okay either 🤷)
This is the big big take away and why I was anxious about the whole thing. IDGAF if it’s hyperbole or not, we have got to do better internally and not reward that kind of language if we want horse sport to survive let alone show jumping. There are such better choices in the lexicon.
Prime example is break vs. start a horse. So many non-horse people are immediately up in arms if you say “break a young horse,” even though all of us in this room know that breaking a young horse looks like a lot of ground work with treats and praise for not taking off when there’s a saddle placed on them. “Start a young horse” ultimately is the better phrase that more accurately (and humanely) describes modern horse training.
And then what REALLY makes me concerned is then what happens when our top pros aren’t willing to help us out and use better language to represent the sport?
Not saying this is the case here, but it is a concern because they’re the best of the best riders. They need to be the best of the best advocates for the sport and horse welfare, too, down to their choice of words out in public.
We, but especially those at the top, have to have an acute level of self-awareness because the court of public perception will always be there, and they would sooner pass judgement and act than wait around for a more detailed explanation. That’s just how the world works unfortunately.
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Could you clarify here? Are you saying that flipping a horse over with a rider on is a regular practice in H/J land? And you’ve seen it used for horses who are a bit nappy and won’t halt? And that you’ve also seen similarly cruel other practices? If so, that’s horrifying!
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Right - I’m so confused by this thread. Like - is everyone in H/J land just happily riding hunters while people are casually flipping their horses over in the warm up b/c they won’t stop and are a bit fresh and opinionated? And they’re just afraid to call it out? Weird.
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The video does include her comment about the riders not knowing how to shorten their stirrups towards the beginning. But I notice it does not include the part where she did, in fact, take the time to teach them how to do it correctly at the end of the session.
I’m still wondering about the origin of that compilation video. If somebody at the USEF edited it together, I wonder if that person still has a job there.
On the other hand, if they were just trying to get clicks, it really, really, really worked.
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No. No one is routinely (or even occasionally) flipping horses over in HJ land. Some of those things are worth more than my house and trainers can’t ride with broken bones. None of the accusation that she actually meant “flip it over” makes any sense at all.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve said “you run him into the fence before you let him turn that corner” and to this day absolutely NO ONE has actually run a horse into a fence. But by gods, they did finally realize that they could indeed stop straight.
I feel like a lot of the critiques are coming from people that just haven’t taught a lot of kids and learned firsthand how nonchalant they can be about instruction that is ultimately meant to keep them safe.
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