The rider’s discipline. Getting done what needs to happen in the moment. Making sure when they ask for something they see it through. And effective use of the stick or other necessary correction. It’s necessary, for everyone. You don’t pass the master, you don’t leave out a stride into the tight combination, you don’t fall off the trail into the creek because you asked for something and you’ve never really meant it before so it didn’t happen (I’m admittedly having trouble coming up with a life or death dressage situation, but I’m sure there is one. Maybe Robert Dover accidentally walked in front of you.). There’s a line between indiscriminate beating and correction, and there’s a line between demanding obedience from horses and people and demeaning them, but that line is yards away from what the internet is preaching to general you. The modern teaching system and social atmosphere produced these riders who weren’t listening and weren’t effective. Maybe they need to hear something different.
But if you truly don’t care about the success of our teams internationally or having top instruction available for viewing at no cost to everyone who might aspire to coaching beyond their level of access, then your perspective is so far away from mine nothing I say will have any meaning to you. And that’s fine, but it might for someone, so I’ll still say it.
While punishment and negative reinforcement have a place in certain situations in the education of humans and animals the most effective way to train the desired behavior long term is through positive reinforcement. Certain temperaments and personality types definitely require slightly different approaches but now that we understand the positive reinforcement is really the best way to engrain desirable behaviors we must try to approach our animals and humans this way. Do I let my horses walk all over me or be disrespectful? No way. But it is amazing how a kind word, a gentle pat or a treat associated with a wanted behavior can really change an animal. They are our partners, and deserve the respect we ask of them in return.
https://pressbooks.online.ucf.edu/lumenpsychology/chapter/operant-conditioning/
But here’s the problem - it does get results. That’s why you see spur marks and horses’ heads cranked to their chests, and why we have the blood rule. Horses are built to suck it up and keep going for fear of being the next meal for the lion.
Which is why anyone saying that beating them to get what you want is doubly disgusting - they know the horse will usually get scared/shut down/suffer through, and they use that to their advantage instead of taking the time to actually teach the horse.
I understand that the terminology wasn’t what we would like it to be, but in the videos I saw these riders weren’t even following the most basic directions. “TURN LEFT” and “STOP STRAIGHT” are things I could do at 10 years old on a naughty pony, these are probably 5-6 figure horses and definitely capable of turning and stopping, she wasn’t asking for half passes and one tempis. As much as I understand the way people feel about select phrases that were definitely not appropriate I can’t believe more people aren’t also appalled at the lack of ability to follow very reasonable directions.
The problem is that this clip is making the rounds on an international platform. No one outside our equestrian bubble cares what the intention was, or what tasks were or weren’t being performed by the riders. The detractors will see this and use it as ammunition. We no longer have the luxury of expecting people to stop and wait for context when harsh or abusive tactics are being publicly condoned, and some will call for the dismantling of our sport.
And these are all super great things. But they aren’t getting you over the back rail of the out of the combination. Your stick is.
You cannot offer a treat in order to not bounce the tight one stride, you have to have ultimate obedience to your bridle.
Long term training is absolutely predominately positive reinforcement. But immediate correction in the moment has to be different, and those are the moments that are dangerous if it’s not applied.
I’m still laughing!!
I actually did have a similar moment many years ago with Bill Cooney when a young horse took off with me. The look on his face was priceless! Lol.
@CBoylen save your breath. That sort of logic and reason isn’t welcome here. 
In the last 2 days I’ve watched the WEF Saturday night lights, the WEC Saturday night lights, and the World Cup in Switzerland and would you believe nobody took a treat out there pocket to encourage the horse to jump yet I saw plenty of sticks! 
I don’t want to comment on the other things b/c many are saying my thoughts (I’m in the ‘this was not OK’ camp) better than I could.
But - I did see a post from Hope Glynn (most of which I didn’t agree with) that did confirm everyone at least knew how to tack up their own horses - whoever said that 2 riders had ‘never saddled a horse’ was just spreading a rumor.
That’s why I specifically said for certain situations or personalities other methods are required. I agree with you. Just trying to point out that maybe old school methods that many still subscribe to should be reevaluated. There are PLENTY of trainers–big name or otherwise–who probably could use more positive reinforcement techniques rather than coercive force and punitive methods.
Sorry to single you out then, as I also agree with you!
Not at all. I don’t think anyone here is saying we can’t use our sticks. I rode in a GHM clinic where he made everyone use their stick over the open water, even though my horse didn’t need it. But I listened.
Obviously sticks are tools. So are bits and spurs. I think we are all advocating for appropriate use of said tools. But in excess, it they become weapons and that’s where many of us draw the line.
Flipping over a horse certainly isn’t a tool in my belt, and for many of us a ridiculous metaphor to even utter.
Yes, horses are our partners. We owe them pats and treats for jumping over colorful sticks for our vanity except the small percentage who actually earn a dime doing this. And yes it’s also a dangerous sport and sometimes we need to use our tools to get out of sticky situations or to reinforce our leg. These are all obvious to I think everyone on this forum.
I think a lot of horrible things are done in the name of “international results” and “winning”. Especially to horses.
That’s why the reactions to this video bother me so much… because people don’t see a problem with this behavior or the attitude toward horses, where, even if they were jokingly used, the phrases referenced terrible horsemanship.
Rather, it’s okay to because…
We need to win internationally or
This is how successful riders are made or
This is how I was trained or
Well, they can’t follow directions (so they basically deserved to be treated that way)
and so on and so forth.
Stop excusing it and expect better from someone who represents us internationally and trains these young riders. I can’t think of anyone outside the horse world who would defend what was said. That horse people can justify it shows how much work is needed to raise standards for horse and rider welfare.
BTW, for those worried that these riders can’t prep their horses or follow directions or ride in a stressful clinic, this industry has produced them. It’s a business model where the more helpless your client is, the more money you make.
And this is the business model that developed out of the 70s, 80s, and 90s alongside the training model supported by some here. It’s a lot more systemic issue supported by those who prefer the good ole days.
Thank you for letting me share my thoughts. I’m off to tuck in my low-level horses that live at home (in much comfort, I should add). They may not be worth millions, and I may just be an ammy, but after spending many years at a high performance level, I have found that the real joy is the amazing relationship with a horse that is based on mutual respect and trust between us, not on what ribbons and glory they bring to me. And anyone who coaches me better be on the same page.
I feel bad for those who haven’t realized that yet.
I was too busy dealing with the aftermath of layoffs at work this week to tune in live, but here’s my basic question.
Did Beezie use the same language, tone, and teaching style as Katie?
And did the kids have as good of, better, or worse results?
When you know better, you can do better. When we, as a society, know better, we ought to do better. And that includes not perpetuating the emotional abuses we grew up with from coaches who grew up being shouted at by army captains.
You know what bothers me almost as much as the “I’d be flipping them” comment. The fact she could not offer solutions to getting a horse to stop beyond turning it into the fence. And you can say well that is what is necessary if a horse is taking off on you. As a clinician, it was her role to take that horse/rider several steps back, check the rider’s hands, check how they are using their seat, check the bit, etc and do some simpler exercises that encourage a softer, responsive horse.
I think we have all done excellent clinics where the instructor builds on smaller skills and produces something impressive at the end. I still use some of the things Randy Roy and Jen Hamilton taught me way back when.
And I will ask here-the correct method of adjusting stirrups is to do it without taking your foot out?
Yes. By adducting the leg out away from the saddle the rider can adjust the stirrup leather without taking the foot out of the stirrup, and if the horse teleports, the leg falls back against the saddle and hopefully no one dies.
Thanks to an issue with my hip joint capsule, I’ve never been able to do it correctly, and thus when I have been in clinics I’ve always hoped the clinician would find my stirrup length suitable. That was not a problem I ever wanted to explain in a group.
I was thinking about that today.
I don’t know if Beezie used the exact same language, but she was certainly telling them to do some similar things, like using the stick when the horse refused at a jump, etc., etc.
And some kids had better results than others. One kid fell off. Which is not terribly surprising in a clinic situation like this one, especially when some of them were on strange horses.
I haven’t heard any backlash against her methods, so I just wonder if it comes down to the fact that somebody edited together and posted a video with the saltiest comments from Katie’s 2 1/2 hour session, but did not do the same thing for Beezie’s session.
I didn’t watch the clinic but would love to hear the take on this. I heard that Beezie was firm and had a sense of humor about things. As well as able to balance that firm critique with positive feedback.
Also, wasn’t it ridiculously windy?? It really doesn’t have to be all that windy for it to be IMPOSSIBLE for me to hear my coach. I’d be more inclined to believe that than to think these riders were all just ignoring everything said to them. That, and the grid was somewhat trappy.
And didn’t George brag somewhere that he created the original mega barn a la this model? Seems hypocritical for his disciples to bemoan lack of horsemanship.
Some random thoughts from this thread: I read here that these riders didn’t know how to properly change /adjust their sturrups. I know you are supposed to leave your foot in it while you adjust. Meanwhile my hips lock up every time I do it that way. So I never do. And also, if you can’t handle a horse bolting off with one foot out of the stirrup isn’t that a bigger question? Of course when I was a junior, and I did a George clinic, I sucked up the pain and left my foot in the stirrup. But this has always been one of the more ridiculous hills to die on in my opinion.
I didn’t watch the clinic so I don’t know what and how things were said.
I started my career on Wall Street and was an investment banker. It was a lot of the same “I was tortured, so I’m going to torture my Junior people.” It does create toughness to some degree, but I think we know so much more about psychology and what really motivates people that I think it’s a misplaced ideology. Similar w horses and riders. We know so much more. If I knew what I know now when I was a junior I would have done better.
Regarding Katie thinking the sport has
Gone soft and been dumbed down: those “dumb” amateurs are keeping shows afloat. It’s not the people jumping the big classes going home with a paycheck. Everyone wants to talk all about the salad days when owners just had horses for pros. Times have changed, and it’s so expensive to do horses in the USA that there is nothing wrong with the person paying the bills having the enjoyment. I realize we have a bench strength issue for the team but that’s because trainers are raising students that way. I don’t think it’s the amateurs’ fault.
Yes. Bridge the reins in one hand so that you still have control of the horse, and use the other hand to raise or lower your stirrup without taking your foot out. That way if the horse takes off in the middle of it, you are less likely to end up on the ground.
