Thanks for sharing this. That’s an incredible story of perseverance, character and adaptability.
1 Like
That’s how I watch the horse races these days. I don’t watch them live.
Regarding the frangible pins on the cross country jumps. I’m sure it’s an improvement.
But there are still some solid jumps in use that will not come down. I would not canter down to those, even if they were a foot lower.
5 Likes
3* has the highest rate of serious falls.
and one was riding for his wife in spirit after she was killed…
2 Likes
To clarify, I don’t think that the “do or die” is the attraction to UL riders. Frankly I don’t know what the attraction is 
but I don’t believe they are there because they might die, or that they enjoy the danger.
3 Likes
Frangibles are not prolific though. Plenty of solid fences out there, though the pinning of the worst types of jumps definitely helps.
We don’t see the same rate of injury and death in other places as we do on XC. Terrain, solid fences, and the questions being asked is part of that. The things that make XC fun/challenging are also the things that make it risky - and that risk climbs as the levels do. That’s why everyone has to be mindful of the risks they take and everyone has a line somewhere - it’s just that we are also asking living animals to come along with us.
To be clear, I don’t want to see XC go away, or be turned into a SJ course, or the ULs banned/changed into a dressage competition. I just personally don’t think the risk to myself and any animal in my care is worth it past a certain point. I have opinions on the ULs as well, but those are more relevant for the “WTF Are We Doing” thread.
5 Likes
Not to totally derail this conversation (too late), but I am always caught in this paradox between a love and respect for the horsemanship and type of horse who excels at eventing, and steeplechase racing for that matter, and an abhorance for the risk involved in both.
24 Likes
While I do genuinely believe that horse people in general are crazy, the steeplechase people are just on a whole different level.
It’s crazy enough to gallop down to big solid jumps at top speed by yourself, never mind with a group of others doing the same thing at the same time.
The compilation videos of steeplechase mishaps are just super nutty.
9 Likes
This is just sort of a random comment about the dangers of eventing as opposed to other sports. Some people are addicted to adrenaline risks. Look at football players. Of course, the big difference there is football players make a ton of money. Evernters, not so much. I recently rewatched vertical Limit. An incredible, (although I guess fanciful,) movie about climbing K2. Those people, to me are batshit crazy. But there are thousands, (millions)? who would do it in a heartbeat if they have the where withall. Football players are dropping like crazy this year, and I am particularly looking at Tua. He has suffered several really bad concussions, but he chooses to go back and play some more. If by some miracle, Liz is someday able to come to a full recovery, would she still strive to ride 5*? Some of this sort of drifts over to the thread about insurance. Catastrophic injuries are raising insurance rates and pricing people out of coverage. It will be interesting to see where we go from here.
9 Likes
That one makes a little more sense to me, because if you’re an adrenaline junkie anyway, why not monetize it if you’re able to do so? There might not be a ton of football players who really make a fortune, but there are enough to give the rest of them hope that they could be next, I guess.
Whether they manage to hold onto that money is an entirely different question, of course.
1 Like
well, I think rookies must make around 900K as a minimum. After 3-4 years if you are good enough, then you get really life altering money. I think maybe some of it is fame and glory. But of course, that is a two edged sword. Ask the celebrities who cannot go out in public without being mobbed. For example, if Tua decided to never play another snap, he would still end up as rich as croesus. I think most modern football players have learned to save or invest their money because their careers are short, compared to an assembly line worker, and they need to live on that for the rest of their life. I recently saw a photo of a player in the NFL, and sorry, I don’t remember his name, but he was standing in front of his 15 year old car that he still drives!
I cannot imagine the turmoil going on at Liz’s facility right now. What will happen to the facility? What will become of her employees? Will the grooms follow the horses?
1 Like
I don’t disagree.
But also, the steeplechase barns I’ve worked for have been full of the absolute best horsemen I’ve ever met in my life and the kindest people I’ve met in the horseworld.
It’s a strange paradox. To love and care for your animals so much yet also compete in something so dangerous. The horses who excel at it are just as paradoxical. They have to be athletic, independent thinkers, brave, and full of heart… yet also willing to trust and listen to their rider.
All of it makes for an environment that’s great to be a part of most of the time but dampened by the constant threat of tragedy.
21 Likes
Comparing football or other sports to eventing is apples and oranges. If you want to go out and hurt yourself via broken bones or multiple concussions, that’s up to you. But to bring another being with you is a whole other situation. I’m not faulting people riding at the ULs, because there are a lot of good ones, and I don’t think it’s unethical to bring a horse along with you, but you just have to be so good and so accurate to be safe that…well, as I said, not for me.
5 Likes
That really sums up a lot of horse sports. Particularly the ones involving doing things at speed.
7 Likes
It’s hard. Everyone draws the line somewhere. To think of it another way, many of us have dogs on our horse farms. The dogs are objectively at much higher risk than a nice little apartment dweller. Kicks from horses, interactions with farm equipment, vehicles pulling in and out, wild animals in the vicinity, etc. They would be much safer in the house, cuddled up on the couch all day. But would they be happier? Probably not. So we take some risk that the dog’s life might be shorter, in the hopes that it is better.
Am I introducing more risk into my horse’s life by eventing her? I am. But I’ve also never seen her happier than when she comes off cross country. She literally struts. She’s a good jumper, and she’d do well in that ring where they all fall down and the risk is lower, but her body language is completely different coming out of the show jumping ring (where she’s had a nice time) versus off the cross country course (where she’s had the time of her life).
How to decide? Where to draw the line? Frequency? Level/height? Speed? Sometimes? Never? The answers are different for everyone. For me, I simply do everything in my power to make sure she enjoys her time here on earth. I try to make sure she does it safely, I take the precautions I think are appropriate, and I’ll be devastated if her time ends before I think it should, but I accept that I cannot control every factor, no matter where I choose to draw the line personally. We all must accept that.
19 Likes
I don’t think this is a one-to-one comparison with horse sports though. Providing species-appropriate environments and enrichment (which free-roaming a farm may or may not be) is NOT the same as competing. It’s more akin to turnout. My horses come in with stupid turnout injuries, but do I keep them locked up in a nice cushy stall? No. Same with the dogs - I don’t bring them to the barn OR keep them locked up in the house because they are much happier and safer in the house and yard, with training and enrichment suitable to their needs.
Certain horses may enjoy working, but who is to say that it’s specifically XC? What about hunter pacing? Or trail riding? Heck, or being turned out on 100 acres in a herd? Or any number of other occupations that would fulfill that need to move. Thinking it’s specifically eventing that makes this horse happy isn’t accurate. It’s not how horses work. But if the risks are worth it to you for the fun you have with your horse - who enjoys her job - that’s great!
10 Likes
The various sports may be very different, but that isn’t what counts. It is the way decisions about TBI histories are made that are relevant.
Medical science is showing that, over time, concussion damage accumulates. That people with a history of concussions can be affected for a lifetime. Thinking, moods, behavior, etc. People with TBI histories can lose their ability to make good decisions. A history of TBI’s can lead to destroyed lives.
There are several tragic NFL post-career examples of this. One could argue that there have been a few more stories among certain names that have been prominent in UL eventing.
The (NFL) Tua question is, imo, a good comparison question to many riders in horse sports generally that are also carrying around a history of multiple concussions.
Who should decide what their activity in the sport should be, and based on what criteria?
For those not up on the situation, Tua is the 26 yo QB of the Miami Dolphins, who has suffered multipe serious concussions during games between 2022 and 2024. There are reports of other concusions during his 3 year college career.
Tua has exhibited marked symptoms of TBI on the field, in front of cameras. Including staggering, a ‘fencing response’ (stiff arms), and unfocused eyes.
But he’s a tough player who continues to go back into games after a clearly impactful injury. He continues to be the starter. He has missed only a few games due to the NFL ‘concussion protocol’.
The Miami team organization, the head coach and the coaching staff seem to be leaving the decision to play up to Tua himself, and to the NFL concussion protocol rules. Tua is always on board to play.
The Tua situation is attracting increasingly heated controversy. Who should have the final decision if Tua should continue to play, should continue to pursue his NFL QB career? The league? The doctors? The coaches? Tua?
Fwiw, his parents have said that they have wanted him to retire from football since 2022 because of his accumulated TBI’s. Also, several head coaches of other teams have spoken publicly that Tua continuing to play is “extremely concerning”, in his own best interests. It is vanishingly rare for any head football coach to comment publicly on decisions being made by other teams. Tua’s TBI’s are the exception.
Anyway. I’m not sure that this will ever be a question for Liz, based on what very, very little we know now. But there are other riders out there – and have been in the past – who I think are/were a question mark of their own best interests.
And who should make those decisions, if TBI’s are damaging thought and decision processes.
(Tua is a one-name wonder because his full Samoan name is a lot for many commentators. Tuanigamanuolepola Tagovailoa. The pronunciation doesn’t strictly follow the spelling. So, in the U.S. he goes by Tua.)
18 Likes
This is said by many to be true in eventing as well. The best cared-for horses, the riders who truly care about their mounts.
It could be that only the best horse people can make it through a season of UL eventing (or steeplechasing) with a horse fully able and qualified to compete.
2 Likes
I can stick with UL and 5* eventing – for now, anyway. Most competitions don’t include a serious life-altering injury.
But the Grand National is too much for me. Even re-vamped, I cannot understand why a race that has horse deaths and serious horse accidents in almost every race is allowed to continue. The death stats alone make it a travesty, IMO.
8 Likes
Thank you for the write up. I don’t follow football, but… wow. It seems (TO ME)almost unethical to allow Tua to play? It’s a valid question for horse sports too - with TBIs and concussions having verifiable impact on cognition, who gets to decide when someone has ‘had enough’?
6 Likes
