People were literally saying the judges were paid off and she was sawing her horses face off etc etc. Her horses dressage was terrible and no way she should have scored that blah blah
It’s one thing when you have a valid issue but when you can’t admit that yes, she can actually do a nice dressage test it really takes away from anything else they say because it’s clear it’s just a huge hate on. She did have a nice test and I thought she rode well all weekend.
Yes, he did not ride Luke in the 4*.
Same, that test was gorgeous honestly.
I was curious about Duvander’s tenure as US coach so I did a little googling the other day. He was in place as chef for WEG 2018 although he had only been in the position since October 2017.
I don’t think there is general agreement among existing participants that equestrian sports should be more mainstream - I think what most folks want is for them to stay sustainable or to grow slightly; they mainly don’t want them to diminish.
I tend to agree that eventing as a sport is mostly going in the right direction in terms of safety. However, there were a lot of horse falls on the Kentucky courses last weekend - an unacceptable number according to some pretty high profile and knowledgeable folks. It’s not ok just because no one left in an ambulance, and I am hoping there is some serious analysis going on looking into the whys of each one.
This is a three-part question/comment, so I apologize in advance if it’s too long.
EDIT: I went back and watched this footage, thanks to a link from @Marigold. I can see that Boyd was struggling to set T up for the fence, but I don’t think the horse looked out of gas, and I might have been unduly alarmed by the comment that he was “dull [not “dead,” as I wrongly remembered] in the mouth.” I can’t say that I would have seen that fall coming.
I agree wholeheartedly with you that there are still strides to be made, but just personally feel that the fact that there is progress being made at all is something that people have lost sight of in all the criticism being directed at the sport. Yes, we had horse falls, yes that very definitely needs to be analyzed and addressed but it’s not as bad as it has been, historically. That’s not to say there’s no room to improve or that it’s okay for horses to fall - it’s not. I also hope there’s analysis and I would expect there is some happening behind the scenes it just probably won’t be made public anytime soon.
The general agreement for mainstream - I see what you mean, but I also have seen some (not all, by any means) equestrian media outlets online over the past several years constantly hyping that eventing’s place in the Olympics isn’t secure and the sport needs to be bigger (audience-wise) and more popular. I probably should’ve made it more clear that that was a general observation, apologies for that.
EDIT: I’m not going to get into a debate any further with this, ultimately everyone has their own opinions and I don’t feel there’s much value in dissecting this further. I respect everyone’s opinions regardless of whether we all agree or not.
EDIT 2: Thanks for noting when Duvander took over - I knew it had to be somewhere between 2017 and 2019 I just wasn’t sure when. So, then yes, this is his first Olympics as coach, though he also coached the team for the WEGs in 2018.
KOC as an announcer is kind of known for making off-handed comments and things like this as well as showing some serious bias. I think it was discussed upthread. She’s obviously an incredible rider and a showperson but her bias can severely show through at times. I don’t recall her commentary on Boyd during any of her rides but I know at other times she seemed to dislike/like some riders without any reason, only to find out later it was her client or student, or she had some business-related connection that wasn’t superficially obvious.
It’s hard to make definitive claims on what she meant by that and it’s hard to make snap judgements on horses we don’t know. Does dead in the mouth mean to KOC that the horse was tired and should have been pulled up? People here have said he looked flat and the quality of canter was lacking. Was he not responding to an aid and wasn’t sharp enough to make the fence? We put a lot of faith in riders to hope they would pull up a horse if it feels NQR without knowing the norm for that horse. How many times have you(g) trotted two laps in warm-up, found an issue, and decided to ride through it instead of getting off? And 98% of the time, the horse is better off for having stuck with it, but maybe it’s not appropriate to “ride through it” the day of a show. AND, like I’ve said, there’s thread running through eventing culture of “take risks, have grit.”
As I’ve said before, I think more than CMC should have been excused from the jog on Day 3, but many of the horses that I think should have been pulled went on and completed show jumping just fine. How many times have you(g) trotted two laps in warm-up, found an issue, and decided to ride through it instead of getting off?
KOC said that in the same moment that I (an armchair spectator watching from the comfort of my couch) said “I don’t think I’ve ever seen Boyd pull so hard on a horse’s face”. In the moment, I’m not sure it means he could/should have done anything. He was 90% of the way through a tough track, and the horse was galloping and jumping well - I don’t think any of us are saying he should have pulled him up. That said, he was doing a little of what ML has received criticism for in the past - gunning the horse incredibly quickly between fences and then waiting until the last minute to balance for the fences, which necessitated some roughness with his body weight and hands to get the horse back.
You can see him do it at 4:02 with Thomas: https://www.facebook.com/BoydMartinEventing/videos/762118614502506/
And you can actually see him do it much earlier on course at a galloping fence at 1:09 with Ludwig: https://www.facebook.com/BoydMartinEventing/videos/455622505734161/
I said earlier “She put in a very appropriate round for where she and the horse were at on Saturday. It showed good judgement”. What I meant was, I thought she was correct to put in a safe but conservative round considering 1) she now has an office job instead of riding professionally - this is her only horse, at any level, in any discipline; 2) the horse is run fairly sparingly; 3) they retired after refusals at their last long format event.
I wasn’t arguing that round meant she should be considered for the Olympic team, but I thought it was the sensible way to ride given the facts as they are, and I thought the round was quite smooth and relaxed for both of them. Rounds don’t have to be fast for me to enjoy them. I didn’t see exhaustion from horse or rider at the end of the course, nor did I did think the mare lost her shape or jump at any point, but I’m no professional either.
I appreciated it. I donated (not much, because I’m aware there are far bigger crises, and the majority of my charitable funds are going in that direction right now, but still), and it was nice to hear acknowledgement of the community effort. Sure, the smurfs didn’t fund the majority of the event, but the love for the event shown by the grassroots was part of what convinced bigger donors to come in and the event organizers to push forward. I don’t think we were the heroes of the fairy-tale (those were Sara K-M, Lynn Symansky, and Dorothy Crowell), but I appreciated the shout-out and the acknowledgement that this year’s running was for everyone (from the commentators, the riders, the organizers - it was nice of them to look outside the bounds of the park to all those that helped, in however small a way). When you ask people for money it’s nice to say thank you when you receive it.
See video links above. I’d say yes, he wasn’t responding to an aid, and therefore the aid was increased. I don’t think she meant he should have been pulled up, I think she was commenting on how hard Boyd was working to get him where he needed to be - she was responding to the action she could see on screen. Personally, I didn’t read it as any more or less than that, but YMMV.
Maybe y’all should forego the routine Kentucky post mortem and just post a link to previous iterations ?
I didn’t think Kitty looked tired at all. I thought her whole round was lovely and slow. The reason I said she might be in contention is that we don’t know what she was told to do out there.
Look at the German woman, Anna Seimer, who is definitely in contention for Tokyo, and was definitely told to back off the gas pedal after going the length of Tokyo. She went from up on time to taking long routes and lots of time. No problem, her trip around KY was to make a statement about the horse’s jumping ability.
As for Boyd, if he was clear and inside the time he would have been in contention for the win (leading or 2nd), and we can’t slog on our riders for not being the winner at KY, and also slog on them for going for it when they are sitting just off a win and were going around near-foot-perfect. I mean you can, but it makes you look a bit daft. I see no reason in the world why he’d not show jump On Cue? That just makes no sense.
I think Erik Duvander is doing a good job.
I will also say WFP was going for it too and had a fall, and while Tim and Jonelle didn’t fall at KY, I have seen them both come down going for it.
@Marigold, thanks for posting the video links. I’ve rewatched several times now, and I can see how hard Boyd was working to set the horse up, but he didn’t seem to be out of gas or in danger. Also, I got KOC’s quote wrong–she said “a little bit dull in the mouth,” not “dead in the mouth,” which probably amounts to the same thing, but “dead” sounds worse.
Hey we haven’t been able to for two years let us be 
A very thoughtful friend of mine who really knows her eventing was at LRK3D, and we had a chance to speak at length about her in-person impressions and my via-video impressions. Without going into all the details, I’ll provide an overview. Note that these are our impressions. YMMV.
The sport has clearly bifurcated between the prelim and below and the levels above. The FEI and all the high performance gang see this as a sport with disposable assets: the horses. Yes it takes great riding and horse care to get to those levels, but the good of the horse is secondary to the good of the “sport”. The horse can be replaced with another. The competition and the money that flows from it (sponsorships, grants etc) are the driving force. Olympic participation is a big part of the money stream, so it will be pursued.
The horses at top levels are very high quality (which is great) and so very thoroughly trained that they really don’t know what to do when they aren’t told, but will try to jump whatever they’re pointed at. My friend mentioned seeing not one but a couple of loose horses caught. They went right up to the person approaching to catch them and appeared to want them to “take charge”. I guarantee that none of mine would do that unless there was some kind of treat or feed bucket around, and even then it would be a while. J. Wofford always said that as we trained a horse to be totally submissive in dressage, we’d lose having that other brain thinking for us on course. (I’m paraphrasing.)
Looking at a fall at The Hollow, it seemed that the horse had so much impulsion/ speed over the top of the jump that it’s body overbalanced on the front legs when they hit the ground when they deployed for landing. I’m not explaining it well, but if you’ve ever swung a hay bale and not let go at the right time, you know that it’ll take you down: you’ve lost balance. With that horse its the same general principle. Its center of gravity went beyond its front legs on a downhill slope and there was no way to fix that but to fall. We declined to identify the cause. That no horses or riders were seriously injured was fantastic, given the difficulty of the course and the weather.
The sport that exists at Prelim and below really is different. It’s a discipline that requires proficiency in three different equestrian sports which develops the mind and body of rider and horse and even more importantly the partnership and trust between them. We all know that and that’s why we love it. But maybe we should have as the ultimate goal of this type of eventing be the completion of the 3 day long format, not trying to go Intermediate and above.
Definitely Dy’On.
One question I haven’t seen that I find more interesting, at this point, than what Boyd/Thomas did, is would that fence have come down if it was frangible? And why wasn’t it a frangible anyway? Jimmy Wofford (I think) said that combination rode way trickier than it walked and it had the most falls of any jump/combination on course, including two of the top XC riders in the sport.
Horse error and human error is part of riding but we have the technology to make sure that errors don’t result in serious injury or death. Someone up thread said it was a good day because none of the ambulances were used, but it seems like pretty much dumb luck that Boyd wasn’t badly injured in that fall. Frankly, I think a good day out should be no horse falls, not no one needing an ambulance. I don’t know if that’s actually possible at a modern 5* without significant changes to the courses and sport.
I don’t currently compete at all, so I can’t presume to speak for majority of posters on the board, but I think the confusion partially arises from the fact people mean different things when they talk about growing the sport.
At the lower levels, eventers usually mean growing the sport by encouraging people already riding–often people frustrated with the micromanagement of trainers and high costs of other aspects of the competitive equestrian world–to give eventing a try at a safe and appropriate level.
At the upper levels, it usually means encouraging more rich people to back the sport. For example, in the UK, some celebrities and rich folk use their cash to support UL horses as sponsors/ owners. I think people realize eventing is unlikely to attract the interest of, say, flat racing in the US, but the hope is to generate enough interest among those with deep pockets.
Ironically, the interests of one group is based on the fact eventing is seen as more financially accessible, while the other is based on perceptions of exclusivity. But as wide swathes of land and riding out becomes less available to riders in so many areas, that accessibility is likely to be more and more limited to the average rider.
I don’t really think anyone reasonably expects eventing to be truly popular or anything but a niche sport in the US–we don’t have the horsey jumping country culture of the UK in most areas, and I’m not sure UL riders would welcome scrutiny by outsiders, honestly.
Your comments about eventing being a niche sport, and upper-level riders possibly not welcoming scrutiny by outsiders, are really interesting. I think you are talking about the economics of the sport for participants (at all levels), but from the perspective of someone who is just a fan, the lack of information and “professional” coverage in eventing is frustrating. Big-name horses drop out of sight for months and literally years at a time, and those of us who try to follow this sport (without inside connections) have no idea what’s going on.
My husband and I both used to work for racing publications, where up-to-date, independently collected past performances, workouts, charts, and speed figures are essential, and when I complain about the lack of information in eventing, his response is basically, “What do you expect? It’s an insular, niche sport, and aside from a handful of people, no one cares.”
I find that so discouraging.
About the loose horses being caught. Anyone who has owned horses realizes that they are all individuals. Out hacking, I’ve had both the run home type and the stay and wait for me to get back on type. The one that waited around was just more tuned in to his rider, more of a “people” horse.
I can only imagine how grateful Eventers must be to have the type that doesn’t go screaming back to the barn in a panic when they part ways.
Just one per event, that I know of. Kentucky 2010. Horse somersaulted down the double-down. Lost OT’s shot at the Grand Slam that year.
Brave men had to go to the hospital to inform OT that he couldn’t show jump his other horse with his newly cracked collarbone and ribs, although it was well-placed after XC.
He was wearing the new-to-the-market inflatable vest, and he later credited it with saving his life. Sales of the vest went through the roof after that. Many amateurs (and/or their families) plunged for it.
I can’t think of a way to give a blanket answer to that. All circumstances would have to be considered … how much of a risk of a fall? Something between “every ride” (pooh) and “no way are you getting around today” (nope don’t go).
A decision has to be made without perfect foresight.
There is a difference between “it’s ok if riders/horses fall” and “falls are inevitable, we can’t perfectly predict, so we make the best decision we can with the information we have at that moment”.
Someone hearing general remarks about falls might come to either conclusion about what the speaker intended.
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