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Long-term plan for a hot and challenging mare

Off Course
#1

So, this is a bit of a “I have no idea which way to go with this horse” vent, that I would like to get some objective thoughts…as I know my thoughts are just scrambled with this horse.

I have a 2012 homebred mare…owned her dam and granddam. She is that “chestnut mare” except that she went grey! She is the last foal of many successful foals that I’ve brought up to be fairly solid citizens as riding horses.

She is very, very talented (dressage), but very, incredibly hot and reactive…everything you want for a horse to go all the way up the levels. Except that she is her own worst enemy. She was started as a late 3yo by someone that does youngsters and had a very positive beginning (work outside the ring, open fields, etc). She was super hot and reactive then too.

I adore riding her when she can keep it together…when she relaxes and thinks she’s great to ride. But, those days are few and far between…I mean she is the type of horse that spooks because she sneezes (or farts! LOL). She’s never mean or dirty…but she is very athletic, so her spooks can be quite acrobatic. It doesn’t matter where she rides, or if it is me or the pro who started her…her behaviors are very consistent. I’ve used ace tabs to ride her, and that will take enough of the speed of the spooks, and seems to help her not stress so much (sorry for those who don’t believe in using drugs, but I would also like to stay out of the ER). If it is windy or there is snow on the roof, I won’t ride her as it is just asking for both of us to get hurt. I am not afraid of her, but I have a healthy respect for her reactiveness and unpredictability.

We’ve been going through this for the past 3 years…we have good days, then not so good days (again, she’s not mean or dirty…doesn’t rear unless totally melting down, occasional buck only if deserved)…but she fights, resists, stresses, fusses, spooks, grinds teeth. She just can’t seem to settle…even when tired. There is no point lunging to wear her down…that actually gets her more revved up.

She’s been seen by vets, saddle fitted, found bits that she seems to like more. She has been treated with ulcergard and is on Ugard (she is calmer when she is on Ulcergard)…no ulcers on scope. She is on magnesium (OMG, you should have seen her before it…that has been a huge improvement). Calming supplements don’t seem to have any impact. Regumate sort of helps, but not really…and she doesn’t show heat cycles…but has huge follicles all the time (had one of the top repo specialists eval her). She’s well behaved for most things…blankets, tacks up on the cross ties, stands quiet to get on.

She is also the type of mare that if you put on velcro bell boots instead of pull on bell boots, she has an absolute melt down (I mean bolt and panic because of the velcro)…or if you change the type of boot on her legs (that she has worn every day) she panics. I mean, she has worked in Woof or polos since started u/s…one day I put professional choice boots on…she actually panicked, freaked out, broke the cross ties and ran out the barn. Brought her in…stood quiet to have woof boots put on. I mean…if there were Autism in horses…she would be the poster child for sensory processing issues. And she’s been exposed and handled her entire life…no excuses.

So after that long back story…I am about done with trying to work through her issues. But I keep thinking one day she might get it together, and she will be fantastic when she does. But, I work full-time, and I keep thinking my time and money could be better spent on a horse without so much “issues.” I am done breeding, and I don’t know that I would want to breed that reactiveness anyway. And, I was the one to bring her into the world…so I feel responsible for her. I know she is the kind of horse that will end up in a bad situation…and I don’t want to see her abused, hurt, mistreated…because I know how tough she is. And yet, she nickers and licks me constantly, so I know she is a sweetheart deep down…she just can’t get out of her own way.

Any thoughts…would you stick with her? Find a soft place for her to land (if that’s possible)? I just have no clue what else to do with her.

#2

Have you done much groundwork with her? Maybe don’t ride and give her a lot of bomb proofing work on the ground to lessen the psnic response.

I would also consider putting her on straight pasture board somewhere with a small herd and lots of space. She can get used to sneezing out there. And if there is a chronic pain under saddle she may cure it.

I would do that for a year before making a decision, like giving an OTTB a year let down

See what you have then, start her back slowly, and rehome to a young trainer with a calming effect on horses.

9 Likes
#3

This isn’t a horse I’d let out of my possession. You love her and are vested and still are looking for a way out…someone with less interest is just not going to be dedicated to finding her a nice place.

It could be worthwhile to send her to a kind cowboy type trainer. Those guys are often successful when others have not been.

And if she has huge follicles all the time, maybe some investigation should be done as to why–that could be contributing.

But if nothing changes, I’d toss her out in a field and call her a pretty pet (if that can be done safely, is she okay for her routine veterinary and farrier care?) or put her down.

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#4

What is she getting for hay, feed and supplements? Is she stalled or out 24/7?

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#5

I can relate. I have by the sounds of it the exact same mare at home, and wrote a very similar post. If the mare could figure out how to relax and calm down she would be amazing, one of the most athletic horses I have ever sat on. But I have decided she isn’t going to, and after 4+ years I am not getting anywhere. She was just impossible, and found anything to be scared of.

After deciding I wasn’t going to put anymore time into her for now, and I got a new horse. I had no idea how frustrated
and bummed I was about riding when she was my main horse. We went to shows, and clinics but never did remotely well because she was always flying off the handle about the silliest thing. (Oh I walked past the gate 5 times already, but now there is a blue coffee mug instead of black I think I will be deathly scared of it)

The new guy holds a lot of promise and I am so excited about riding and his progression. I can actually become a better rider now that it’s not just about fixing the horse. I actually have a smile on my face when I ride now.

All I can say is that it is your decision either way, and don’t feel guilty if you need to let her go. You should be able to enjoy riding!

1 Like
#6

Hmm, well if you don’t want to breed her, I wonder if spaying her might help? Though can’t say from the description if her repro issues actually have anything to do with the behavior.

Alternatively, for groundwork, look into the TRT method. It breaks down helping horses learn self control and relaxation when presented with various sensations – visual things, noise, touch, and approach (things moving towards them or them moving towards things). If she is alright to handle most of the time, that’s worth trying, considering that she has learned that some things are ok.

I feel like my horse is “on the spectrum” in some fashion, so I get it. It’s hard when you just aren’t sure how to help them because the usual training approach just doesn’t seem to address all of their issues.

3 Likes
#7

A foal might settle her down. She sounds like she would throw a nice one.

#8

If she is really that talented, would an UL pro want her? Sometimes these types of horses do well in a serious program, where the athleticism is better appreciated. There’s no shame in deciding a horse is not your preferred type of ride!

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#9

For feed she gets 1qt Strategy AM and PM (and I’ve tried other feeds, including ration balancer or the low starch…etc. Didn’t see any differences with grain changes…though I do know she is highly sensitive to MSM. So it is possible she is highly sensitive to other “stuff”). She gets free choice grass/timothy hay, with a nibble net so there is always something…when it’s not winter she has grass (not super rich due to being on the NJ coast)…but enough to keep her happy munching and decent quality as long as we have enough rain. She is turned out 6ish to 3ish all day…winter they’ve been in a bit earlier as there is no grass and she actually starts fussing at being out. I would love to do 24/7 turnout, but we have no way to keep the water tubs ice free at night. She’s a very easy keeper for a 17 hand mare.

She’s had periods of down time (right now I’ve given her off since December because I was so frustrated and why torture myself with the cold and snow). Luckily, I have another gelding to ride, and even on his worst days, he’s a fun ride (and he was a terror at age 3!). I’ve had her worked up for anything pain related (no kissing spines, etc.).

She had a full repro assessment with the top repro vet at a major university vet clinc because our vet was finding huge follicles even on Regumate, and we were thinking that could be part of her issues. We were considering the spaying…but the repro vet didn’t feel it would change anything based on what her symptoms and behaviors were.

She is generally pretty good to handle…mostly good to lead in/out (unless something spooks her…but even then, she won’t run into/over you or she’ll have a melt down moment and then pull it together). I don’t worry about bringing her in/out, but I do worry about if a family member has to deal with her. She’s good for the farrier, vet, dentist…although I should clarify she is great for my farrier. When I send her to boot camp with the trainer who started her (racetrack guy) they had to nearly knock her over with tranq for their farrier. Again…it’s just like the bell boot moment. I can blanket her in the stall, no halter. But she can also have a melt down in the stall or in the field (last week shattered a fence board and ripped down 40’ of electric wire…who knows why and luckily only some hair missing). She is actually much better for me than anyone else…she certainly sees me as her person, and generally trusts me more than when others handle her. She is the type that if I walk in the barn she’s licking me and nickering…but if someone else walks up to her stall she will sniff and not let them pet her until she decides if they are okay. She picks her people (she liked the trainer and assistant trainer where she was started but hated the groom).

The groundwork is a very good idea…I haven’t done nearly enough of that with her, especially in terms of introducing scary stuff. She did some…but we could definitely revisit that in more depth. At least that would give me something to do with her over the winter. Will check out the TRT too…I really do love her, and I would actually prefer to be able to sort out her issues.

#10

What did the top notch repro vet say about always having huge follicles?

Seems like that’s just not normal and worth further investigation.

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#11

She actually said it wasn’t that abnormal…and that they can still develop multiple large follicles while on Regumate. That the Regumate just stops the heat behaviors/expression of the heat, but they were finding that it doesn’t suppress the follicle development for all mares. It seemed odd to me…but she’s the expert and came very highly recommended by other top vets. We actually were thinking about doing the marble…but that seems to have it’s pros/cons as well.

#12

Other posters have already covered my main suggestions – turn her out 24/7 for a few months and maybe consider spaying her.

So I’ll add a couple of more off-beat thoughts that popped into my head, FWIW. What about a change of discipline for her, at least temporarily? I know you said that she’s very talented in dressage, but, it is a demanding, precision-based discipline and I wonder if this mare is the perfectionist type, or perhaps just the stress of trying to channel her excessive energy into precision isn’t the best fit for her? My go-to here would be to suggest trail riding, BUT, and this is huge but, given her level of spookiness and reactivity, trails might NOT be ideal for her. But possibly some other activity that is less constrained (I don’t mean that in a negative way at all!) and more free-wheeling might help her relax and learn to go with the flow better? I have no idea what activity to suggest for this mare though …freestyle? polo? barrels? cutting cows? :eek::lol::smiley: LOL You get the idea. :winkgrin:

After some time in a different discipline, she might be able to come back to dressage with a fresh perspective. Or not. :ambivalence: Just an idea.

My only other suggestion is to try some clicker training for this mare. She sounds like an intelligent horse who stresses easily, so giving her a way to communicate a little differently and, in some ways, feel like she has more control in interacting with you, teaching with a clicker might be helpful. Try it for a few ground manners or simple tricks and see how she responds. Can’t hurt, might help.

3 Likes
#13

Replace mare with gelding and this would have been a near identical story for one of my friends.

Everything was tried with him with no success. He then had an injury which required him to be stabled for 6 weeks and the vet suggested resperpine to stop him from destroying himself while on box rest and the rehab afterwards. He was given minimal doses and monitored very carefully while on it. He was able to cope with life much better on it and slowly got better when he didn’t jump straight to a full blown meltdown when a leaf floated near him. While on it, he eventually learned that not everything was out to kill him and became a lot more manageable. He was weaned off it gradually and had no adverse effects coming off it.

He was never what you call a solid citizen, but he was a lot more rideable and you wouldn’t have an ambulance on speed dial every time you put a foot in a stirrup afterwards.

Another avenue to pursue, has she been seen by an equine ophthalmologist? Extreme spooking is often a sign of eyesight problems that a regular equine vet may not be able to diagnose. It’s another thing to consider, although an expensive one if nothing comes of it.

6 Likes
#14

My younger gelding is not that bad, but was bad enough that some days I pretended I owned only one horse because I could not deal with him. It has been a long, slow process but we have found a few more pieces of the puzzle in the last three years and I can enjoy him the vast majority of the time now.

The first piece was work. He needed some work as close to every day as possible. Ground work qualified - this was mental work, not physical. Some days all I had was five minutes in the (very small) barn to walk, halt, back, move over, move bum (TOF). It made a difference. He still needs regular work, but doesn’t lose it if I miss a few days now.

Magnesium helped him immensely as well.

Warwick Schiller’s video about letting go of the rabbits has made a huge difference. I’ve seen another one of his videos about the same thing without the rabbits - cognitive behaviour therapy. It involves deliberately putting the horse in a situation where he gets a little bit nervous and then giving him the opportunity to calm himself down. He learns how to calm himself and then you put him him in a situation that makes him a bit more nervous and give him the opportunity to calm himself down. And repeat with progressively scarier situations.

It is not a one day fix, or a one week fix - though I did see improvements fairly quickly. He backslid if there were too many days between rabbit work. It took work and there were days I had to work on letting go of the rabbits instead of doing the dressage work I had planned. And I said, more than once “I don’t want to do rabbit work today.” But I did it anyway. I started on the ground and I was blown away when he volunteered to halt beside the open door, in the wind, with noisy activity out of sight, and COCKED A HIND FOOT AND DROPPED HIS HEAD!! Yes, his head popped up again almost immediately, but his foot was still cocked until I told him to walk on. We did rabbit work under saddle too.

There were days this winter that I got on and rode that I wouldn’t have even considered riding him last year.

It may not work for your mare. But if all she needs is to learn how to control herself it might help.

3 Likes
#15

It sounds like you’ve covered all the fairly standard things with this girl, so like others, it’s time to think outside the box.

If she were mine the next step I would take is finding a really good trainer who can teach her how to control herself and show you how to work with her… That trainer might be western or natural horsemanship or more English focused - but there are trainers out there who are brilliant at this.

It might be a good thing to get a fresh set of eyes on you both as well.

My horse, C, is quirky, reactive and spooky. But he’s a huge amount of fun. Just this morning we were competing at about the fanciest show we’ve ever been to. It was a lot of atmosphere yet he was fantastic (except for walking on the special mats they’d put down to get to the warm-up ring - luckily a friend was passing and was able to lead him). He went into the ring and jumped like a pro (it must be noted that I did not ride like a pro :lol:)

C had a pretty poor start to his working life but was lucky enough to end up with the phenomenal trainer who I bought him off. His owner at the time was scared of him on the ground and didn’t want him back - didn’t matter when the trainer said he was actually a nice horse and was shaping up really well.

The trainer was very specific about his needs - flat out told me on the phone that it had to be the right match or he wouldn’t sell him to me. When I bought him he came with instructions - I had to do ground work with him Every Single Day, no treats, lots of work, no “spoiling” him, lots of trail riding and “he doesn’t want to be drilled”. All of this was/is spot on.

I’d never done ground work like that before - coming from a very English background it was all new to me. But it was and is so important for getting us both on the same page. 6yrs on I don’t do as much of it - but I enjoy it if I don’t have time to ride or he’s particularly up about something.

He’s always going to be a quirky, reactive and spooky horse - that’s just who he is. But when he spooks he’s safe.

Good luck, I hope you can figure her out - she sounds like she’s worth the effort

#16

I don’t know the endocrinology involved, but spaying mares doesn’t always help the “marish” behavior. Sometimes, it can leave them permanently in season. Of course it would help with the huge follicles, if that’s the only problem.

1 Like
#17

I second the suggestions about doing groundwork (but see below), re-reading the description of what that bit of Warwick Schiller’s training is about, and teaching the mare how to calm herself down.

I have a more minor version of what you do. But this horse was still more reactive and spooky than the horses I had chosen for myself before. I spent a long time doing intelligent groundwork. The points I made were two:

  1. The answer to any problem was not drop everything and run; the answer to everything was slow down and think.

It seems to me that your mare needs to learn this skill, over and over and over until she can override her instinct to over-react in a big, physical way.

  1. I am in charge and a very credible alpha mare. In other words, my mare has had to learn that if she can do #1 (slow down and think… at all) enough to follow directions, I WILL keep her safe. Eventually, the mare starts to look to me for direction because she experiences peace and safety when her attention is directed toward me.

All this starts with me demanding accuracy and obedience with her feet on the ground. I also demand way more attention from this mare on the ground (and elsewhere) than most people ask for from their horses. She first needs to experience me micromanaging her into a posture of calmness because she can’t get there by herself. Then, over time, once she has some experience with that, I can allow her a bit of room to find that calmness herself. But that change in her mind and her first instinct is my goal. I’m not desensitizing her so much as teaching her what to do when she does get scared… because there will always be something new that makes her want to spin the other way and run. I want her to have another tool to use in the face of danger.

The best trainer for you would be one that can “narrate” their interaction with the horse and make it clear to you what state of mind in the horse they are trying to produce. And you will see lots of good horsemanship-type guys do this on the ground. It’s a wonderful place to start with a reactive horse. But the point I’d underscore again is that you have to get inside her mind and teach her a new way to cope with stress. She honest-to-God doesn’t know what else to do. It will take a long time and attention-to-detail on your part teach her that “slow down and think” is her new first instinct. But so what? Isn’t this incredible “attention to detail” on the horse’s part what we are teaching horses that we take up the levels? You just have to carry over that level of precision and thoughtful training on the ground. IME, if you can re-teach the hot, reactive horse to slow down and think, it carries over wonderfully to the under-saddle work. I don’t think this remedial chapter will be time wasted.

3 Likes
#18

Op, your post resonates with me and I know how you feel. I have a 21 yo mare who these days is so explosive I have to adapt my usual strategies to stay safe.

In our case I know it’s the lack of riding (I work full time and am only able to ride on the week-ends most weeks), the lack of movement when turned out (she is wise, paddocks are icy under the snow - I am glad she doesn’t move much!). My mare lives outside Spring-Fall but I stall her during the winter (like you, I worry about water intake in the winter - she hates the heated trough and won’t drink from it) and I know that’s part of the problem.

She is a Ottb who I bought at the track when she was 4. She’s always been very reactive, but when she’s good, she’s SO good! That’s why we’ve been together all this time.
In her case ground work doesn’t quite translate to under saddle work. She is great on the longe line, great to handle, great for vet/farrier…but under saddle, sometimes it’s like she flips a switch and it takes a lot of work (and a velcro seat) to get her back to work. So, when she’s besides herself like this, I just get off and make her move on the longe line. This is not something I typically do with horses, but this one needs to move. So I make her gallop on the longe - she’s not allowed to buck or fool around, I just want her to move. She gallops until she doesn’t want to anymore, then I make her gallop some more. When she is nice and steamy and breathing hard, then I get back on and we have a good ride. I know it’s not ideal but until she goes back to 24/7 turnout…its what’s we’ll do.

That said, I know plenty of people who just give their horses the winter off - or just do ground work with them.

Good luck with your mare and stay safe!

#19

You have a mare that just has little self control, and gets herself anxious and then can’t let go of it. It’s really not something that is difficult to get a handle on - you just need to commit to the time. You bred her, you’ve had her for going on 7 years, you are responsible for her behavior. You need to commit to giving her a solid foundation so she can live out the rest of her life as someone’s treasured partner. Like you said, it’s winter. There are videos online where people who understand horse behavior can help you get her over her issues - Warwick Schiller is imho the easiest to understand and implement. If you can’t do it, send her out for training with someone who’s program involves good solid groundwork to get the horse mentally ready to work under saddle.

2 Likes
#20

Turn her out 24/7 and put her into work. I don’t mean an hour in the ring. I mean take her out and WORK her. Take her for a 4, 5 or 6 hour ride with some chill buddies. Work on ground work. Let her learn self-soothing and self confidence (patience poles are great for this). I’ve used these methods on more than one horse who sounded exactly like you described and there is a night and day difference in the horses once they get enough confidence and exercise

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