So Im curious if any of the WB breeds are tracking long term soundness? My reason for asking is that I see a lot of horses now in there middle years that were full of potential as young horses who are not staying sound. This includes horses that have had Cush lives from start to finish always carefully managed. I am concerned that WB breeds and breeders are not considering this in any of there breeding choices. Yes I also see this is a very difficult thing to consider as you will not know a stallions propensity for passing on long term soundness untill he is an aged horse himself. So can breed lines be traced then for soundness? Who would be collecting the Data and how would they obtain it? Anyone ealse concerned about long term soundness? Part of my concern comes from being financialy limited If my horse goes permanently lame Im in a bad way and will have a difficult time replacing said horse. Also I have invested so much of my passion into this horse only to have it all come crashing down (this hasent actually happened to me but I have seen it happen to others). Not trying to Bash anyone just thinking out loud and want to know what others are thinking. If there is another good thread on this topic feel free to share it Id like to read it.
You know, I was going to make a thread asking about stallions that were noted for throwing “soundness”/longevity. Glad you did so… would be interested to see if there are any stallions people know on this forum to contribute to long-term soundness in offspring.
I can not answer for the Don Principe offspring as “older” horses, as they are only 8 or 9 so far. So far (knocks wood), all of them are sound and healthy. But he turns 15 in a month and is totaly sound and happy. He has only had 1 hock injected at age 10 and nothing since. He is training hard and competes FEI and will do the Grand Prix next year with Michael. Prince is more prone to exuberance in turnout mishaps, sliding, jumping, etc
I think if you look at the Donnerhall line specifically, you will see many of those horses are older, sound and competing.
I also like the Rubinstein line for soundness in general. If you go back a bit if time, the “G” line was noted as well for staying sound.
Looking at the young horses that are successful as noted above, a good portion are “S”, "J"azz, some “F”. They are disappearing due to riding(trainability) and soundness issues. Before anyone jumps on me for this-- it is a GENERAL statement and not specific in any manner. Only my personal observations over 20 + years.
When I had my 17 year old Rubinstein mare inspected by GOV this year, they went on and on about her condition. She was not lame, had really good active way of going still with swing through her body with minimal arthritis present. I cold tell it in her walk that she is getting older, but hey… she’s 17. And she foundered (due to salmonella) that caused her to rotate and sink 3 years ago, but you could not tell. She has VERY thick soles and I think this helped her recover so fast from the founder. So when you do vet checks and have feet x-rayed, notice the sole thickness.
While this is definitely an interesting topic and I’m interested to hear what some have to say about some stallions’ reputations, there is no way to guarantee any horse’s soundness long-term (regardless of its breeding).
My recommendation: a very thorough pre-purchase exam. I had to pay a flat fee to rent the x-ray machine for the day because my vet had to travel far to do it, but we took pictures of EVERYTHING. The only thing we couldn’t get images of was her spine because her body was too thick for the machine to get through. 
she’s a solid mare! Pictures of the major joints/feet are a wealth of information and provide a baseline for any future issues that may arise.
also: INSURANCE. I cannot recommend it enough. It can be expensive but if you ever need it, it is a miracle. You don’t have to stress about how much X and Y will cost and your horse will get all of the diagnostics and treatment they need. Some insurance companies have a loss of use clause, but I don’t have any experience with it. Maybe others can chime in with their thoughts on that.
My SO jokes that my horse eats my paycheck, and it’s true! No one wants a catastrophic injury and we all wish we could wrap them in bubble wrap at all times. My girl is recovering from a fracture to her pastern and it was devastating at the time. BUT she is rehabbing well (we got to canter this week!!) and coming back. Be prepared with a safety net and hope you never need to use it 
Fantastic topic and something that is useful until a heated rampage starts flying. But a great question, especially as it relates to financial strain.
So can we please add jumping lines as well as dressage? Because I’m as curious as the OP, especially with the fact that we see injured horses so often retire as broodmares. And possibly a new topic, are the seemingly increased frequency of suspensory injuries a result of our breeding practice or better veterinary diagnostics?
Marydell I appreciate your honest answere and I love the D line for the temperment so soundness is another ++ for them.
Huntcap happy to include the jumper horses as I believe we cant have one without the other (dressage) and some awsome horses come from crossing the two…
B in the Saddle Your mare’s performance at 17 sounds like what we are all hoping for ourselves and our horses as mature adults we want to still shine .I like it!
Come on don’t be afraid to post this is suposed to be informatine for all and adds a little of your own opinion in to :)…
OP - Of course!! Especially if you are breeding for the FEI arena - you have to factor that into the equation of sire & dam selection.
The old Hanoverian “D” line (Duellant ->Dolman ->Detektiv) was tough as nails and known for soundness. The heads can/could be a tad old fashioned in the shape of the head but they (generally) stayed sound well into their late teens/20’s. We retired one of our GP dressage horses at 23 after a good competition year that included CDIs. Tough, hardy, diligent - they could/can take (correct/fair) hard work on a daily basis and hold up.
There are exceptions of course like with anything else!
I beleive there is a study out of an English University about how the “flash” trot practicing extensions can over stress the suspensory and cause serious damage. Read it about a year ago.
There is a disconnect between the young horse lines and the grand prix lines. The Dutch did a study some year back that indicated the average age of retirement has moved from 14 to 9 in some bloodlines. Young horses flash does not always become a sound upper level horse.
I think there are so many factors that contribute to soundness that it is very difficult to assess the the soundness of a line. Is the horse turned out, does it work 5-6 days a week, is it given a long period of rest then brought back too quickly, does it show 3 weeks a month? Soundness is something that is relative as well. A horse may be happy and sound with little maintenance to PSG but not be able to handle the demands of upper level work.
Conformation contributes to soundness but certainly doesn’t preclude it. I have a few horses who are very sound but are funky to look at, I have a mare that is stunning and young, but has injured herself twice in the last few months and is on stall rest. Both injuries were from her overwhelming desire to get into trouble.
I think that a lot of our horses who have “cushy” lives live to OUR standards of cushy rather than how horses should live. Horses are designed to live outdoors and move constantly rather than sit in stalls. Arthritis and other joint issues are exacerbated by standing around and doing nothing.
I am sure that there are some bloodlines are more tough than others, but I would suggest that if you want a sound horse give it the best chance by good management and nutrition from the start and avoid restricting the movement of the horse. Insurance is the best way to safeguard your money and well worth it if you are concerned about veterinary care and replacement.
Could the expected/desired fast training rate these days be contributing to these issues? Everyone wants instant results it seems. Why should we be impressed a horse can get to GP by 7? Should we be more impressed with those who are still going GP at 23? Could semen $$ be contributing the need to “impress”? Back in the day, say 30 years ago, what was the average age for a GP horse?
As to the old D lines… I have one of those with Detective, Duellant somewhat close up in the pedigree, within 5 gens. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wynonna2 I bought her at 16 to be my fun riding horse. I finally felt she’d be more comfortable with her first hock injections at 18 last year. She’s an old style mare that is surprisingly (from her looks) light on her feet with an incredible amount of power/impulsion from behind. After studying her pedigree a bit more yesterday, I’m beginning to see that her light movement shouldn’t be surprising after all, but this old type of good moving horses isn’t what’s being bred anymore. for fun here’s a pic: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m245/backinthesaddle_2006/Wynonnaonlunge_zps61704dfd.jpg I have to admit, I keep looking at her and wondering if I’m letting a breeding opportunity pass by. :o LOL
I love this thread, and hope many breeders and trainers with decades of experience will chime in.
My thoughts:
It makes sense that horses with EXTREME flexibility are more prone to soft tissue injury. Add power to super mobile joints and inadequate or incorrectly developed musculature and you have a recipe for injury.
I have Hypermobility Syndrome and I am very flexible. I have extra flexible collagen In all tissues. It’s a blessing (fewer wrinkles!) and a curse (prone to injury), and I must be carefully to stay strong in my muscles to reduce joint problems resulting from hyperextending (think Flash trot). I have dislocated both shoulders several times, blown my cruciate ligaments and turn ankles frequently. But I can bend and stretch and could have been REALLY good at gymnastics.
I see some really “soft” pasterns on some of the new flashy young sires. My joints do that too! they make me wonder about Hypermobility in horses (something like DSLD). These horses are so fluid, so swingy…but will they hold up into their twenties? Will people understand that these horses need to be conditioned carefully, with correct basics…(plus turn out) so that their muscles will support the joints and prevent hyper extention?
It makes sense to me that the lines which are not necessarily known for HUGE extentions are felt to be more durable (R, the “old” D’s,G).
Breeders? For long term soundness, maybe it’s better to start with a prospect who has a BALANCE between power/strength and flexibility/reach. It seems to me that the market is evolving to an extreme that may have inherent long term soundness problems.
but will they hold up into their twenties? Will people understand that these horses need to be conditioned carefully, with correct basics…(plus turn out) so that their muscles will support the joints and prevent hyper extention?
This is the key and it speaks to those saying it’s too difficult to generalize and identify specific bloodlines remaining sound because of all the other factors that contribute to it too. It’s important to know what bloodlines produce (in general) and then we can make intelligent choices in how to manage those possibilities or if we even want to.
I have the same concerns as you in regards to
Breeders? For long term soundness, maybe it’s better to start with a prospect who has a BALANCE between power/strength and flexibility/reach. It seems to me that the market is evolving to an extreme that may have inherent long term soundness problems.
Thank you for your perspective. I really appreciate it.
I think that the general need to have the flash comes from the need to sell these guys fairly young, the cost of keeping horses has ballooned in the last quarter of a century. The cost of breeding (stud fees, vet fees, transportation ect) fuel, hay, grain, veterinary care, show costs and the higher expectations of buyer in general leads to high prices and early sales. I think in general we have higher quality horse on the ground, but the profit gained if still pretty low to get a horse to a started 3 year old. The price of a weanling is not much less than a 2 coming 3 year old so all that flash and prettiness gets them sold sooner even if it compromises the likelihood of it being a Grand Prix horse or long term soundness.
While all breeders hopefully strive to put lovely good tempered and talented get on the ground, unless you have endless money they do have to at least not make you bankrupt. So the market decides what breeders put on the ground. I’m sure this is already known and talked to death about but it is the reason for all the instant gratification, and horses pushed too far too fast with horses burnt out by 10 years of age.
FWIW, I do believe some ‘individual’ horses are more ‘predisposed’ to injury than others - not necessarily the bloodline. I had one “D” line 3yo that was just getting started, SLOWLY, and was slightly off. Turns out he was already having suspensory issues right from the pasture. He never made it far. I had one more 3yo I purchased from an auction in Germany that came with susupensory issues. Too much too soon perhaps? He was “W” line and never made it far either even with a year+ off. Also from the way I observe how many people ‘train’ i.e., lunge in a circle until the horse is half dead with no warm up or cool down, or difficult upper level work without proper recovery in-between, it’s no wonder there are injuries. Even with everything perfect, upper level work is hard and some horses can’t handle either the movements or repetition of the movements. As far as breeding for ‘soundness’ my suggestion would be to breed to a stallion that has himself proven to be sound well into his teens like Don Principe. Or, like Negro, that has produced my top level horses that are holding up well.
I am concerned that WB breeds and breeders are not considering this in any of there breeding choices. Yes I also see this is a very difficult thing to consider as you will not know a stallions propensity for passing on long term soundness untill he is an aged horse himself. So can breed lines be traced then for soundness? Who would be collecting the Data and how would they obtain it? Anyone ealse concerned about long term soundness? Part of my concern comes from being financialy limited If my horse goes permanently lame Im in a bad way and will have a difficult time replacing said horse. Also I have invested so much of my passion into this horse only to have it all come crashing down (this hasent actually happened to me but I have seen it happen to others)
While I hope that any genetic issues can be monitored and eliminated from a group, I think soundness has so many factors that is would be hard to monitor. Unless a particular stallion has a obvious fault that is reliably passed on, soundness may be hard to track.
As previous posters have pointed out, some “ideal” conditions are really not that ideal and training practice really do vary. Wb’s are big horses and one proven factor is fast growth rate, so as long as you breed for 16-17h horses, we run the risk of issues.
But here is another point that may not be very popular. I have seen lots of people buy horses that are expensive for their particular economic situation. They are people who are investing money that they may have a hard time replacing should something go wrong. Often they vet check the hell out of the horse in hopes of negating the risks, and of course there is a whole other thread on the topic of vets and pre-purchase exams.
But the truth is, a horse can hurt itself at anytime or not work out. There are no guarantees, so why do people overextended themselves financially on a hobby? Then expect the horse to be perfect?
Loads of cheap horses don’t work out, but that is not a problem if people didn’t pay a lot. Look at the world of Eventing. They go though many OTTB to find the one that works and is sound enough to do the job. They are notorious for not wanting to pay a bunch for any one horse and the reason is they are really aware that the horse might not work out.
This is an expensive sport and if you look at the top, you see some very, very well to do sponsors backing the top people. They do go through horses to find the top ones. I love the idea of always breeding for the best horse you can but then breeders need to be willing to take a loss if it turns out to be worth less so the WB market can a broader consumer range. Or you can breed for really good horses and be able to sell at a decent price.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a supporter of the amateur and riding as it is the base of the triangle that makes up the sports. I think there should be horses around that the average person can afford, as long as the average person is realistic about their goals and the money they have to reach it. Any horse and especially big ones will tend to have issues when put under the pressure of sport, that is the nature of it.
I see alot of the expense comes not from the orignal purchase, but the owner’s sense of responsibility for the future of a lame horse and not being able to afford supporting another one while supporting a pasture ornament.That is a position an ammie can easily find themselves in.
I agree soundness may be hard to track --knowing the farms with good track records of producing sound durable horses may also help.
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in, take it for what it is worth because I am not a breeder, just some one who rides.
While it is hard to say that a line is sound or not, I think its important to make the best informed decisions that we can, As you can see in the tbs they were bred for speed and retire young. Now many tbs have weak hooves. We can’t only breed for big gaits or jumping high, we also need to breed for soundness.
I think we can look at mares and stallions and see if they are sound (I think that breeding to older more established stallions who have been sound themselves) goes a long way. I also know that I am “preaching to the choir” I feel the breeders on this board are responsible and do there best to breed quality sound horses.
Interesting and worthwhile discussion. This is one of the reasons I put a lot of stock in the ability of stallions to compete into their late teens and stay sound. Of course, there is no guarantee they will pass this on to their offspring since, as some have mentioned, there are a number of variables that contribute to soundness, but it is a start. Stallions like Capone I (at age 16 still competing in the big ring) and the interesting Russian stallion now at Rising Star Farm, Abrikos (still doing Grand Prix dressage at age 19 and Young Riders at 21) are some examples that have caught my eye, partly for this reason.
One stallion whom I think is really underused is Novalis at Dreamscape Farm. I saw their stallions earlier in the year and I was really impressed by the fact that despite his age (18) and impressive show record in the Grand Prix jumper ring, his legs are PERFECT. Not a blemish on them; they look like they could be a four year old’s. Jennifer recently told me that he was x-rayed for his KWPN approvals at age 16 and he x-rayed completely CLEAN. Amazing. This is the sort of thing we should really be taking into consideration when choosing stallions; it is surprising that it is not discussed more. It is disappointing that stallions with this kind of toughness and durability get passed over for the 4 and 5 year old stallions “du jour” who have not proven that they can compete at the higher levels successfully, let alone stay sound at that level of competition.
