Long Term Soundness anyone tracking this???

[siegi_b]

As a long-time breeder I pride myself in producing healthy and sound youngsters. By the time they go to their new owner I will have already done a preliminary vetting to include x-rays because I don’t like surprises and prefer to deal from a position of strength, if you will.

In my opinion, when you have a 3-year old youngster with good radiographs and sound movement, it is up to you to continue managing this animal in such a manner to where injuries due to overly stressful training are avoided and you continue to build up the muscling and endurance required for your discipline.

That does not mean that “stuff won’t happen”, but your horse will have the correct “foundation” to deal with the occasional “over-stressing” that is bound to happen during its career.

I believe that breeders can only control the environment their “product” while it is at their place, and that injuries incurred during competition years should not be attributed to bloodlines but rather training practices and/or bad luck

Just my opinion…

[columbus]

So many factors in soundness

There is correct conformation…and this is not beautiful conformation but functional conformation, lots of what makes pretty or high scoring inspection horses doesn’t keep them sound and it isn’t even intended to keep them sound but to make them pretty and commercial.

Breeding for hot house horses that haven’t any sense of self preservation. They might be genetically fine but are raised in such a way they never learn how to care for their own self. I dont buy horses who have never been turned out in herds, never been on uneven ground, never played with their own kind and learned to rough house and stay whole.

Then there is just cheerful toughness…it’s a long way from a boo boo to their heart and they are sound to work even if they are full of imperfections. We have all known the horse who is lame and sore from any bruise and bump. And we all known the horses who are sound the day before and the day after they blow an abcess. The majority of horses function just fine with chips and arthritis while we quiver afraid to buy anything not perfectly clean.

We all watch as people nearly deliberately work their horses into lameness or whose care practices make it likely that the horses will hurt itself. I have seen owners send totally unfit horses to training, I have seen trainers who work those unfit horses because they are being paid for training.

Soundness isn’t often freedom from flaws…I am very flawed as an older athlete and there are many things in my control to be able to keep enjoying an active life. Same for our horses. PatO

[beowulf]

While I do agree that so much can contribute to a lame horse, I think it is unfair to say it is impossible to distinguish which is a “hard knocking” line and which is a soft or weak one… It is very obvious in the TB world which sires throw strong get and which do not – so I wonder why the same can’t easily be distinguished for WB breeds.

Granted, the amount of offspring isn’t the same, but I still think it is an unfair assessment to say too much goes on to know for certain. I would love to hear more from our many knowledgeable breeders on COTH, their input and experience is always valued. This may be a tricky thread for some, as some may think a stallion is being bashed. Which may be why responses are limited in input.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7323805]

Granted, the amount of offspring isn’t the same, but I still think it is an unfair assessment to say too much goes on to know for certain. I would love to hear more from our many knowledgeable breeders on COTH, their input and experience is always valued. This may be a tricky thread for some, as some may think a stallion is being bashed. Which may be why responses are limited in input.[/QUOTE]

I think the OP asked what are we doing to track the issue as a group. Not necessary name an individual. The Dutch, Hanoverian, Holst. and others keep close track of the offspring. I think most of the major registries in Europe see enough offspring through inspections and performance tests that they would be able to sort if a stallion had issues.
NA is a different story and overall we have less info on our stallions.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7323816]
I think the OP asked what are we doing to track the issue as a group. Not necessary name an individual. The Dutch, Hanoverian, Holst. and others keep close track of the offspring. I think most of the major registries in Europe see enough offspring through inspections and performance tests that they would be able to sort if a stallion had issues.
NA is a different story and overall we have less info on our stallions.[/QUOTE]

In regards to the OPs original query you are completely correct, but some of the responses turned towards certain lines – I think the first couple of posters took it that way and I did too. She did ask if there were any established lines, that is where I deviated. Carry on, meu culpa!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7323824]
In regards to the OPs original query you are completely correct, but some of the responses turned towards certain lines – I think the first couple of posters took it that way and I did too. She did ask if there were any established lines, that is where I deviated. Carry on, meu culpa![/QUOTE]

Very true. And people were keeping to the positive side of that discussion.

[ThistleDewDressage]

I also think that the TB industry is very different from the sport horse world in that they have a specific job (going fast around a track) at a certain age (usually 2 or 3 years) There is a lot of offspring that don’t make it to the track, but the ones that do are trained relatively the same way with the same goal, in sporthorses the goal also depends on the rider, the pace differs greatly, the instances of injuries are different and the horses train for longer periods (a decade or more) the time for these animals to break down is longer and the injuries are different in general.

I don’t think it is impossible to find horses that are known for soundness, but there are so many contributing factors that I think it is unlikely to have a reliable study that would give viable information. I think the best we can do is watch and observe and make the most suitable match for the mare we have.

[back_in_the_saddle]

In general, what about front leg conformational issues. I’ve seen a lot of high $ horses with toed in conformation lately. I was surprised. My old gals don’t have this problem.

Legs are scored at inspections but what looks to me to could lead to issues (or not, please explain) these mares still get premium, elite, whatever…

Should legs be getting more critical scores? Something needs to happen here IMO.

[Marydell]

Here is a link to an extremely interesting article. It will answer some questions here in an indirect way.

http://horsesinternational.com/articles/breeders-talking-adelinde-cornelissen/

I have to say this says it all better than I can and I am fully behind the concepts stated in this. Marketability for sales at a young age trumps breeding for long term performance ( and soundness). I personally try to breed for top of sport with great temperments. Not all breeders can afford to do so.

[DownYonder]

@Marydell;7324186

Here is a link to an extremely interesting article. It will answer some questions here in an indirect way.

http://horsesinternational.com/articles/breeders-talking-adelinde-cornelissen/

Lots of thought provoking comments in that article - especially this quote:

Isabel van Gisbergen: I think I understand why in the young horse qualification system and the stallion approval system the same horses are in the top rankings. It’s because the same people always look at the same horses or the offspring of those horses. So they confirm their own opinion time and again.

I suspect many of the stallion committees realize they have a big problem looming, and may explain why the registries are trying to bring in stallions from “different” bloodlines. Especially noticeable these last few years are the Germans going to Dutch and Danish bloodlines when looking at colts for licensing.

[back_in_the_saddle]

Here’s an incorrect front leg article: Never looked at the ones mentioned too closely, but something to take note of.
http://horsesinternational.com/opinion/incorrect-front-legs/

[Cartier]

Haven’t read this entire thread, so apologies if this was said here already, but in all the years of attending inspections, approvals etc., we are consistently surprised that there is no real value placed on strong limbs and great feet. And it’s impossible to ignore that so many impressive young stallions could not stay mentally and physically sound for more than a few short years. I can think of many stallions that never competed past minimum scores, or a year of competition, because they were not mentally or physically sound enough to do so. And yet, breeders were encouraged to breed to these stallions because of the glowing (and utterly subjective) inspection results of their foals. Some of the rave reviews seemed to be nothing short of pandering to prestigious farms and stallion owners (at the cost of soundness and longevity in our breeding populations). Over time it turns you off to inspector’s evaluations.

About all this long-term tracking that might go on in Europe, in a culture that sees horses as a “crop” similar to beef and poultry, where a 10 year-old broodmare is considered aged and sent to slaughter, how can there even be longevity studies? They don’t keep horses around long enough to have any useful data. Here in the USA we keep our horses til they die of old age. In the USA we can actually determine longevity and soundness. But by the time we realize that this or that bloodline produces great feet and strong limbs, with the physical ability to stay sound and the mental ability to do well in competition, the stallion is gone.

[TSWJB]

10 yo broodmares are sent for slaughter in Europe? What about lame or injured riding horses? Do they put those down too? Do a lot of horses go for meat? So sad!

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7324131]
In general, what about front leg conformational issues. I’ve seen a lot of high $ horses with toed in conformation lately. I was surprised. My old gals don’t have this problem.

Legs are scored at inspections but what looks to me to could lead to issues (or not, please explain) these mares still get premium, elite, whatever…

Should legs be getting more critical scores? Something needs to happen here IMO.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s important, as others have mentioned, to be able to distinguish between functional conformation and conformational issues that have implications for soundness. While it is ideal to have perfect front legs (and score mares at inspections accordingly if they do not have “perfect” legs as we do want to be breeding the highest quality mares possible), toeing-in is one of the least offensive conformational defects, as far as I’m concerned. In theory, it can increase the likelihood of sidebone occurring, but most horses that toe in are likely to compete for many years without this affecting them. There are other issues (ie. long, weak pasterns) I would balk at long before I would get hung up on something like toeing in.

[Dan]

This is exactly why the Hanoverians tend to promote the G-line as much as they do. This blood produces strong back and joints. Unfortunately, they do not show the flashy movement as foals that a lot of the market is looking for. These bloodlines tend to mature much later.

Dan

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7324475]
I think it’s important, as others have mentioned, to be able to distinguish between functional conformation and conformational issues that have implications for soundness. While it is ideal to have perfect front legs (and score mares at inspections accordingly if they do not have “perfect” legs as we do want to be breeding the highest quality mares possible), toeing-in is one of the least offensive conformational defects, as far as I’m concerned. In theory, it can increase the likelihood of sidebone occurring, but most horses that toe in are likely to compete for many years without this affecting them. There are other issues (ie. long, weak pasterns) I would balk at long before I would get hung up on something like toeing in.[/QUOTE]

good points… but is it ok it’s becoming more and more common?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Dan;7324519]
This is exactly why the Hanoverians tend to promote the G-line as much as they do. This blood produces strong back and joints. Unfortunately, they do not show the flashy movement as foals that a lot of the market is looking for. These bloodlines tend to mature much later.

Dan[/QUOTE]

Very true.
But just about any Hanoverian horse has the G-line.
We tend to see the name but really it is all the relatives that define the horse. I used a L line Hanoverian (Ladykiller) but it was line bred to G-line more that some actual "G-line " named horses. In other words had more G-line genetic influence. I think you have to look at the whole pedigree. Just mentioning this for people who tend to gravitate towards the name of the horse. I believe you already know this, Dan.
But a really good point is that buyers are not always interesting in those type of horses that mature slower or don’t look as modern. I think that is why you see some of the trends you do. I actually think the old style horse is more suited to dressage in terms of conformation.

[vineyridge]

Question for WB people, especially dressage folks.

Do horses get conditioning training as a general rule? I’m talking about trot and canter sets, hill work, and road work to strengthen tendons?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7324793]
Question for WB people, especially dressage folks.

Do horses get conditioning training as a general rule? I’m talking about trot and canter sets, hill work, and road work to strengthen tendons?[/QUOTE]

I can’t answer for all dressage horses (and their respective trainers/people), but in my experience, no. The dressage barns I know of may hack their horses out after a ride or lesson, but I haven’t heard of them doing so in the way eventers do.

I do wonder often, when thinking about TB crops and WB crops - is it better to start early as a long yearling (like they do with racing TBs) and load appropriately for strong tendons and ligaments? Or is it better to wait until they are three for any under-saddle work? Sometimes I wonder if the TB has it better off in terms of longevity for this exact reason.

[omare]

I thought there were studies showing appropriate stresses on young thoroughbreds made them more durable than their less pressured peers.