[QUOTE=vineyridge;7324793]
Question for WB people, especially dressage folks.
Do horses get conditioning training as a general rule? I’m talking about trot and canter sets, hill work, and road work to strengthen tendons?[/QUOTE]
I do, and my horses stay sound. I agree very few dressage riders do this. It’s a problem.
I don’t do trot sets per say but we do trot hills and canter and hand gallop out on the trails regularly. We work hard to do strength training that is not too demanding while gaining the strength necessary for the work. I would say that there are some people who will do this while others prefer to stay in the ring. I think that many things can be improved without over working and drilling. Many times rather than drilling something that isn’t working it makes sense to work on something else that improves the original issue but not with the same exercise. Dressage is a thinking sport and many people go in the ring determined to fix a particular thing with XYZ and rather than change tactics if that doesn’t work they drill and drill. The repetitive stress and overtiring a horse often invites injury which then don’t get a chance to recover because the rider is fixated on making the issue better without thought to the fitness of the horse.
I think that many injuries could be prevented with more forethought and consideration of the horse. They cannot tell you where they are sore or if they aren’t feeling 100% pushing past their thresholds is a recipe for disaster. Now that being said many injuries occur in the field and are something that has to be contended with, but pretty much every study I have read shows that turnout is worth the risk since it improves both muscle and bone, as well as mental health of the animal.
Bump as we are still discussing this in several other threads. 
Wasn’t that study (that proved loading a long yearling appropriately was beneficial) done on 18m+ TBs, not WBs? I wonder if anyone has done any studies on loading benefits for WBs?
This thread is interesting to me and I hope more people can chime in.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7365311]
Wasn’t that study (that proved loading a long yearling appropriately was beneficial) done on 18m+ TBs, not WBs? I wonder if anyone has done any studies on loading benefits for WBs?
This thread is interesting to me and I hope more people can chime in.[/QUOTE]
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf
SURPRISE
The correlations between the growth of the foal, expressed in the development of weight and size, and the occurrence of OCD was surprising. Lighter foals showed significantly more osteochondrosis in the fetlock joints than heavier foals. The weight did not, however, appear to
influence osteochondrosis in the hock joint, but the height did. Taller foals were more often affected in the hock joint.]
This is not surprising or new. Astronauts are an extreme case of no stress on the bones causing a reduction in bone density. You hear so often of people trying to keep weight off of their growing youngsters, to the point of them being overly ribby. It was a back lash of people overfeeding youngsters grain to get them ready for the auctions. Grain is a huge source of carbohydrates and causes a glycemic reaction which is more likely the cause. Also fast growth without the proper nutrition to go with it. A 16hh yearling better have the proper nutrition to keep up with the growth. I think trying to stunt the growth by reducing food is a mistake. Often the nutrition is also cut out.
Agree with this stoicfish.
If you talk to equine vets they will tell you that dressage horses are becoming lame more frequently at a younger age and it is almost always soft tissue. Suspensory damage is so common i believe every dressage rider knows someone whose horse has had it. My theory is that we are breeding poor quality soft tissue into big moving horses.
But I also believe part of it is the modern fashion for starting horses as two year olds. I could have cried when Oldenburg decided that the two year old stallions would all have to be shown on the lunge. I seriously doubt whether any of the generations subjected to that amount of stress so young will ever stay sound long enough to come out at GP.
One of the lines known for long term soundness is Jazz. Edward Gal’s Next One is 19 years old and winning international GP. I don’t think it is a coincidence that Jazz horses won’t take pressure when they are young. You have to treat them very gently until they are 6 if you want to avoid frying their brains. If you do that you end up with a partner with an astounding work ethic and huge paces. So Jazz horses usually aren’t worked hard as babies and they don’t get asked to flash around in big trot (because they’d explode!) until they are older. Then they shine.
A line I’ve got on my watch list is the F line. Florencio hasn’t fulfilled his promise due to soundness problems. Floriscount has just had a year off due to soundness issues and he’s not quite 8 years old. Those two will have had the best possible care from the day they were born. But they’ve also been pushed hard when they were very young and been through the stallion grading process.
Perhaps it’s also worth noting that two of the best stallion competitors of recent years: Totilas and Uthopia both avoided the stallion grading as two year olds and were produced more slowly.
A final thought is the rise and rise of the Trakehner cross in top dressage. Totilas, Blue Hors Matine, Kingsley Siro, Noble Dream. All trakehner x warmblood. All top international GP horses. There are more Trakehner stallions working and competing at GP than any other studbook. This was said by the announcer at the Neumunster grading. Trakehner stallions are put through the same (in my opinion terrible) production process as all the others but they do seem to cope better with hard work as two and three year olds and stay sound.
[QUOTE=stolensilver;7366451]
If you talk to equine vets they will tell you that dressage horses are becoming lame more frequently at a younger age and it is almost always soft tissue. Suspensory damage is so common i believe every dressage rider knows someone whose horse has had it. My theory is that we are breeding poor quality soft tissue into big moving horses. .[/QUOTE]
I think modern trends in horse keeping and training are also a huge part of the equation. First of all, horses these days tend to not get adequate turn out once they go into training, nor do they get the opportunity to work on real ground on a regular basis. So many barns in Europe and here keep them in stalls most of the time, with the horses coming out only to work. Even barns that do allow turn out give them MAYBE one hour outside in either pens or level, well manicured paddocks, so they spend the majority of their lives standing around in their stalls getting stiff and body sore. And all the work takes place in arenas with “footing”, so they don’t have the opportunity to ram around in grass fields, which helps them build denser bone and strengthen tendons, ligaments, etc.
Add to it the fact that many people don’t do proper warm ups or cool downs anymore - 5 minutes of walk for a horse that has been standing around the past 23 hours is NOT an adequate warm-up, esp. for higher levels of work, nor is a 5 minute “cool-down” adequate for getting the lactic acid out of their muscles before they get stuck back in the stall.
[QUOTE=stolensilver;7366451]
But I also believe part of it is the modern fashion for starting horses as two year olds. I could have cried when Oldenburg decided that the two year old stallions would all have to be shown on the lunge. I seriously doubt whether any of the generations subjected to that amount of stress so young will ever stay sound long enough to come out at GP.[/QUOTE]
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure Hannover was already lunging the 2 y/o stallions at licensing. Oldenburg just followed their lead. As I understand it, breeders and registry officials were bemoaning the fact that some of the previous highly placed premium stallions were turning out to be pretty disappointing under saddle - i.e., they looked wonderful “in hand”, but could not/would not move through their backs when asked for a little bit of contact, they were not good in the bridle, they were lazy in the hind leg, and/or they couldn’t reach underneath themselves and lost balance in turns, etc.
I think modern trends in horse keeping and training are also a huge part of the equation.][Add to it the fact that many people don’t do proper warm ups or cool downs anymore - 5 minutes of walk for a horse that has been standing around the past 23 hours is NOT an adequate warm-up, esp. for higher levels of work, nor is a 5 minute “cool-down” adequate for getting the lactic acid out of their muscles before they get stuck back in the stall.
Yup, yup and triple yup.
[QUOTE=exvet;7366507]
I think modern trends in horse keeping and training are also a huge part of the equation.][Add to it the fact that many people don’t do proper warm ups or cool downs anymore - 5 minutes of walk for a horse that has been standing around the past 23 hours is NOT an adequate warm-up, esp. for higher levels of work, nor is a 5 minute “cool-down” adequate for getting the lactic acid out of their muscles before they get stuck back in the stall.
Yup, yup and triple yup.[/QUOTE]
Training can strengthen tendons and ligaments. But it’s long work on hard surfaces that is most effective. You have to train for soundness, not just performance.
With reference to Trakehner stallions, have Windfall or the stallion that Dr. Klimke showed in the Olympics and then his daughter continued with to an advanced age, I believe been mentioned or listed here? He was Russian, the same lines as Oskar II only reversed as far as sireline and damline. I know after Windfall’s success in the Olympics he is now showing at FEI level (GP?) dressage domestically with his owner. Quite an accomplishment after eventing at the top level. How old was Peron when he was lost? Horalus is competing in GP jumpers at the international level, too. Since having my Trakehner mare, I’m even a bigger fan of the breed! There is a gorgeous Sixtus son now showing GP in Europe in international type venues I believe. His rider/owner is British. My mind can’t seem to come up with names, sorry! Someone younger can fill in the blanks. I know Lord Luciano is also being aimed for the Olympics, not sure of his age. I am hoping to use Oskar again this year on the dam of my Trakehner mare as they are both in their 20’s and it would be a shame not to repeat that wonderful cross. We certainly should review all the wonderful stallions who have accomplished so much for our breeding choices.
PennyG.
Training can strengthen tendons and ligaments. But it’s long work on hard surfaces that is most effective. You have to train for soundness, not just performance.
Yes, which is why all of mine are ridden on mountainous trails (because that is what I have accessible) an average of 10 miles a week. Prior to that when I had 40 acres of pasture, we conditioned the horses using paths cut over hill and dale on my acreage, again what we had available, in between training rides in the arena.
Basically you have to train and manage for soundness as well performance and knowing how to do that with what is available around you helps significantly.
Not that I am really tracking but my KWPN mare is 18 this year a d is still completely sound. She competed up to 1.4m and I still hack her around and do a bit of a jump school every now and again.
But I wonder if the vettings where we concentrate so much on the X-rays that we throw away sound horses are part of the problem. I’m sure everybody knows stories of horses with horrible X-rays that have had long careers where their owners didn’t even know that they had “bad” X-rays. But for resale purposes, we feel pressured to produce and sell the clean X-rays but I’m not sure that it’s the whole story and hopefully we aren’t overlooking the obvious in our programs.
I do agree with the others who have said that maintenance and lifestyle has a role. Imo it is probably more important than the breeding. You just cant lock a horse in a 12x12 box for 23 hours a day and then work the piss out of it in a arena for an hour and expect it there to be no consequences as far as soundness is concerned. Their bodies just were not evolved for that. I think it would be exceedingly difficult to undertake any sort of real analysis without taking this into consideration.
Our database for CCI**** eventing horses since the change of format shows that, once horses are over 17 hands, their number of completions drops compared to smaller horses; however, it is REALLY difficult to sell a 15.3 hand horse. Perhaps WBs are just getting too big.
a very interesting discussion. It is disturbing that the horses are retiring so young as I do know draft crosses that stayed sound hunting first flight into their 20’s - so what is happening with the warmbloods? Too much molly coddling? nature of the work? genetically poorer quality tissues and joints? Very hard to “prove” whether it is nature or nuture though.
Sometimes people have the money to show at a high level for only so long- or other life changes occur to the owner (not the horse - so a sound capable horse is semi-retired if the owner does not want to sell.
[QUOTE=sherian;7373176]
a very interesting discussion. It is disturbing that the horses are retiring so young as I do know draft crosses that stayed sound hunting first flight into their 20’s - so what is happening with the warmbloods? Too much molly coddling? nature of the work? genetically poorer quality tissues and joints? Very hard to “prove” whether it is nature or nuture though.[/QUOTE]
I think too much molly coddling from birth is a huge issue. Horses need to grow up like horses, learning how to use their bodies long before they are expected to carry a rider AND use their bodies. They need to learn to navigate on other than perfectly manicured footing as well.
Mr. NoDQ has another opinion as well, based on his experience riding many many horses over the years. At least some “unsoundness/soreness” is caused by poor riding and just plain lack of correct riding.
Having said that, the Trakehner stallion, Meisterwind was sound his entire life, competed through GP Dressage, at 20, and was never injected or needed supplements. He ate alfalfa/orchard grass hay year round, grain during breeding season, and grass in summer. His offspring and grand offspring are very sound horses as well.
No doubt both nature and nurture are at work.
I appreciated the link to the research study posted on page 2 I read it at work 
day before yesterday and I think there is some really good points about management of foals made in it. The few foals that I have had were all raised outside 24/7 till they were at least yearlings and even then when they started to come in they still got as much turn out as I could possibly give them no standing in a stall. I went and looked at a breeding farm in my area last fall this breeder was very much a farmer at heart and her babies were out 24/7 they only came in to get seen handled some vet periodic grooming ( she had 60 horses on the farm so lots to do). I have to say the feet bone and just general development of every one I saw was significantly different than anything I had seen at a different farm. She had a colt of the same age as I was looking at that she had imported and it was very visually obvious how much bigger the bone joints and feet were of her home breds vs the new import she had brought in. I thought that was very interesting.
So when shopping is it odd to ask how much turn out and what kind of living conditions the young horse your looking at has been getting? I may add this to the list of questions I’m asking.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
