Looking for before/after photos of 'corrected underrun heels'

[LMH]

@caballus;5753689

I think its a simple case of the hooves rebuilding healthier and stronger as the mechanics of the hooves are put into proper place (and assuming diet and husbandry are what they should be) … I’ve found that low, long forward heels USUALLY begin to thin in the soles. Plus, the bars, being part of the heel structure/platform, also migrate and grow therefore they cannot do their job for supporting the hoof. Neither can the quarters as they, too, are deformed … the hoof, as a whole, simple collapses. But as the hoof is brought back into good form and proper functioning it begins to then restructure itself from the foot. The frog builds up again, the DC begins to strengthen, the sole thickens and callouses, the breakover is in the right place, the COA is in the proper place etc. etc. Good form = good functioning = good form = good functioning etc. etc.

HERE you are actually getting at where I am going-the hoof is collapsing because of the internal structures-it is the collapse that makes it look run forward…but the actually tubules are coming out of the hairline the same as always-it is the rest of the foot that has the issue-not the actual ‘heels’-those are simply a gauge as to the health of the rest of the hoof.

This is why I think it takes more thought on the part of trimmers as to how much heel to remove-Pete went down this road a bit several years ago-that article where he talks about his brother in law leaving more heel and horses staying more comfy than whacking the heels? If you recall?

I guess it is a fine line, a semantics discussion of a sort-but it is worth clarifying because trimmers are just getting in a world of mess, with horses suffering through lengthy unnecessary transitions, all in the name of getting heels back…you can’t get them back without lowering them…

And if a horse is mush inside and thin soled (which goes hand in hand) I am just finding that leaving more heel (not a huge amount, not ignoring heels) but leaving more even though it means it will be more forward, is often a wiser path when the rest of the structure is collapsed.

Just some points to ponder.

[LMH]

@whbar158;5753826

I think I can see what LMH is saying, if you really just look at the top of the hoof in before and after you can see the hoof wants to grow the same way in both pictures. What can be misleading I think is the distortion of the capsule in the before pictures where the entire capsule is so long.

YES

Would the point you are trying to make is that some horses are just more predisposed to underrun heals? Because I would believe it that without proper management these horses will have underrun heals.

Well I think we call them underrun-and that is where they go if left unmanaged…but I guess I am looking more to what is normal for one horse looks differnent than what is normal for another.

I am not talking all the photos of severely neglected or human induced imbalances-rather considering the rest of the structure-and the horse as a whole-in determining correct height and placement.

For example, the craze for awhile was backing up toes like mad-I was guilty and promoted this-however when a heel is forward and the toe is brought back, the total surface area contacting the ground is reduced when you do this.

With a horse that is more naturally ‘shallow’ in his heel growth, I have found leaving a little more toe allows more comfort. Greater surface area, less pressure per square inch, if you will.

Some horses may never develop internal stuctures to ‘fluff’ those heels-without shoes or something-and you will not change that natural growth angle on the heels.

Once one becomes aware of this and acknowledges it, it can give information to make trim choices based on individual hoof form rather than a model or method.

[IIIBarsV]

I’ve got a bunch. And was intending to update all my pics on several horses in the next week or two… but I’m on dial-up and could only do low-res photo uploads right now. If you want hi-res I can email you a bunch around September 3-4 weekend when I’m back at school on high-speed.

Do you want heel-views looking down or lateral views or both? First and Last or “timeline”?

My photobucket albums have a collections, but they’re not all in order very well… Renalon—> Hooves ----> Individual horse albums. My blog’s got a good first to last B&A of a club foot with a description of how I did it/maintain it. IIIBarsV @ Wordpress, “The Club Foot Files” post.

Turbo is really the best example of a non-club feet decontracting and returning to soundness, but I haven’t had time to do the recent B&A sequences with a write-up on him yet… I’ll be doing that for The Horse’s Hoof at some point in the next month, and it’ll probably go up on my blog first.

You can facebook me if you want to stay in easier touch… I am rarely on COTH, mostly on HGS and facebook.

[JB]

There you are

[grayarabpony]

That is a fine semantics line indeed, because if the angle of the hoof is changed through change of trim or change of internal structures the angle at which the tubules meet the ground (which is the definition of underrun) will be different than before. I don’t think anyone argues that a horse that had underrun heels will not be prone to them – a horse’s heels tend to grow either tall or forward. But I think to say that they can’t be corrected or at least improved is incorrect.

My horse (who has flattish feet, and had collapsed and underrun heels at one point) was actually more comfortable the more the heels were taken down. Had to be done slowly, though. Taking down heels more on the outside does not necessarily mean the coffin bone angle will lowered significantly, otherwise that is ignoring internal soft tissue and bar support.

[monstrpony]

[QUOTE=LMH;5753948]
With a horse that is more naturally ‘shallow’ in his heel growth, I have found leaving a little more toe allows more comfort. Greater surface area, less pressure per square inch, if you will.[/QUOTE]
:yes: I found that if I took the toe back too much, the front quarters would just flare out. Granted, that was when I was first trimming my own, there were probably other issues that contributed to this.

Some horses may never develop internal stuctures to ‘fluff’ those heels-without shoes or something-and you will not change that natural growth angle on the heels.

Yes, but shoes have to be done very carefully; shoes and six weeks can just perpetuate the problem. It might be better to deal with a slow transition to barefoot while the trim can be kept better with minimal, frequent trimmings.

Once one becomes aware of this and acknowledges it, it can give information to make trim choices based on individual hoof form rather than a model or method.
Definitely.

[LMH]

OK I jut spoke to a fellow trimmer that explained this better than I am.

The tubules always grow perpendicular to the hairline-that is how the originate and grow.

In an underrun heel, the hairline will be curled-but the tubules are still growing out perpendicular to the hairline.

Everyone with me now?

So in ‘correcting underrun heels’ it is now about the heel horn at all-tall upright heels, short upright heels, shallow heels (tall or short), the tubules will always grow out perpendicular to the hairline.

So correcting heels is not a matter of lowering heels or bringing them back in the name of a method, it is about creating the individual heel height that suits that horse at that moment so his internal structures get the correct stimulus to develop those structures-creating the correct pressure-not too much (which can happen when heels are lowered to some method’s ideal height) or not too little (which can happen in poorly shod feet or bare feet with insufficient abrasion).

But at the end of the day no trim method can ever change the angle the tubule leaves the hairline-it will always be 90 degrees to the hairline.

[LMH]

@grayarabpony;5754135

I don’t think anyone argues that a horse that had underrun heels will not be prone to them – a horse’s heels tend to grow either tall or forward. But I think to say that they can’t be corrected or at least improved is incorrect.

If they are prone to them then they have not been corrected…this is my point.

Every horse, because of the strength or makeup of the internal structures has a ‘determined’ heel angle growth-it will return to that set point whether you trim or not-it is the other factors that may or may not change it.

Riding is one, correct stimulus (riding or not)-didn’t Bowker say somewhere around 4 yo the internal structures are pretty well set?

I guess I just get frustrated at reading post after post about trimming to correct underrun heels-not happening. Unless the trim is careful planned with a complete consideration of everything beyond the heels.

It is not just about the heels.

People post photos and the trimmers jump on and scream to bring the heels back as if it is a cookie cutter approach. This mentality is creating trouble…if you trim heels in the name of angles and methods, horses can end up caudally rotated, with too much pressure, and eventually crash.

Again-semantics? Perhaps-but pretty important semantics.

I look at hooves trimmed in the name of strasser-low heels, heels far back…but the tubules may not be growing ‘tall’-the hoof can still be ‘curled’ at the heel bulbs-now it is just an ‘underrun’ low foot, often accompanied with very plum, overworked frogs.

Not saying everyone-not saying no one gets this-but enough still seem to offer advice without giving the full explanation.

And all this said, I still am not seeing photos showing changes in the natural direction of growth-which goes back to what i say-heel angles can not be ‘corrected’ only managed.

And perhaps ‘corrected’ already creates a bias that implies something is wrong with that angle-as Tamara said on another thread, there can be multiple reasons why a horse naturally wants a more or less shallow heel.

[amastrike]

[QUOTE=LMH;5754142]

But at the end of the day no trim method can ever change the angle the tubule leaves the hairline-it will always be 90 degrees to the hairline.[/QUOTE]

So what’s the point of this thread, then? Why ask people to show you pictures of something you state is impossible? Is this just to get people going on the subject so you can jump in and say “ha ha, trick question, you’re all wrong, it’s not possible!”? I don’t understand your intention.

[Auventera_Two]

@amastrike;5754186

So what’s the point of this thread, then? Why ask people to show you pictures of something you state is impossible? Is this just to get people going on the subject so you can jump in and say “ha ha, trick question, you’re all wrong, it’s not possible!”? I don’t understand your intention.

I was about to post some photos but then I read the entire thread and realized that once again Leah is just looking for an argument. She wants to be able to prove to everyone that all the “methods” are wrong and only she is right (never trim your horses, never feed them any vitamins or minerals or grain, just let them run free and nature will do it all.) Anything else is flawed, stupid, incorrect, or otherwise ridiculous. She has devoted her life to every barefoot method under the sun and they all failed for her horses so she’s still searching for the Holy Grail of hooves. Leah will nitpick the tiniest little sliver of bar that is the teensiest bit lopsided until she has dreams about it and she will consult with 17 different hoof specialists for their opinion, and then decide that everybody is wrong, and she has to search for another method before her horses go lame and die.

But I would like to state the obvious…adhering to the lack of a method is actually a method itself.

Look Leah, seriously. JUST TRIM YOUR HORSES THE WAY YOU WANT TO. Nobody cares Seriously. We don’t. Find a trim that works for your herd and run with it.

[LMH]

@amastrike;5754186

So what’s the point of this thread, then? Why ask people to show you pictures of something you state is impossible? Is this just to get people going on the subject so you can jump in and say “ha ha, trick question, you’re all wrong, it’s not possible!”? I don’t understand your intention.

The point? Um…a discussion. I thought that is what forums where for?

Before making a huge announcement of a topic for a discussion, it is often prudent to ask for examples of the topic-if one appeared, it would have changed the direction of the topic.

This is even more important when discussing a hoof topic.

Read how often people suggest to lower heels to ‘correct underrun heels’.

Would you now consider this responsible advice in light of this discussion?

[LMH]

Welcome back Vickey-I have so missed your irrelevant comments.

I can see you have still not resolved your personal issues.

I had something I was trying to understand better on my horses-this topic came up in discussions with other trimmers.

Sometimes it helps to ask for things to make sure one is not overlooking something.

So I did.

Forgive me for actually wanting to continue to progress in my learning. And regardless of your personal desire to imply some hidden agenda, I actually thought this was a darn interesting topic.

I didn’t think I could find photos of what I asked-but certainly wanted to ask before I reached a personal conclusion.

Please feel free to argue with me-what I am talking about is actually KC101 if you recall, just presented in a different way-just wrapped my head around it in a different way.

Thanks to this discussion and working through it, I now have a better grasp on something that will allow me to do better for my horses.

OMG-I expanded on something I knew-did I just change methods again!:lol:

Sidenote-if you don’t care, why would you waste your valuable time responding?

[caballus]

it is about creating the individual heel height that suits that horse at that moment so his internal structures get the correct stimulus to develop those structures-creating the correct pressure-not too much (which can happen when heels are lowered to some method’s ideal height) or not too little (which can happen in poorly shod feet or bare feet with insufficient abrasion).
B.I.N.G.O. !! Say that again, LMH – in fact, shout it from the barn roofs! Oy!

I’ve been on a rant lately – seeing too many, W.A.Y. too many horses going lame in the name of ‘full frog contact’ – meaning taking the heels away even down to where I saw blood at the heel/groove juncture on one. Gotta have the full frog pressure – WRONG!! WRONG!! WRONG!! (Sorry, TOLD ya I was on a rant!) …

Patty Stiller explains on her website, very clearly, the difference between frog PRESSURE and frog SUPPORT … I’ll try to find the link again. I know I have it on one of my FB groups.

I’ll be back …

[Auventera_Two]

@LMH;5754200

The point? Um…a discussion. I thought that is what forums where for?

Before making a huge announcement of a topic for a discussion, it is often prudent to ask for examples of the topic-if one appeared, it would have changed the direction of the topic.

This is even more important when discussing a hoof topic.

Read how often people suggest to lower heels to ‘correct underrun heels’.

Would you now consider this responsible advice in light of this discussion?

It might be responsible, or it might not be. IT DEPENDS. Every horse and every hoof on that horse is different. Sometimes lowering and backing up heels consistently does indeed fix their underrun nature. Sometimes it does not. It depends on a few things - the conformation of hoof and leg involved, environment, trimming schedule, work load, frog health.

You cannot simplify hooves down into threads and discussions on chat boards. I used to think you can, but now I know better. There are too many variables. Hoof trimming is as much art as it is science in my opinion. I can’t say what I would do with a foot unless that foot is in my hand and that horse is standing in front of me with all the information laid out on the table.

[LMH]

Thank you Gwen for contributing to the ‘point of the thread’

I look forward to the link from Patty when you have the chance.

[caballus]

Ah ha … found the couple of paragraphs from Patty’s site that I wanted ::

SUPPORT vs. PRESSURE

There is a critical difference between frog “pressure” and “support”. Pressure is when there is constant pushing into tissue by an object such as a shoe or pad. An example is sole pressure, when part of the shoe pushes on the edge of a sole constantly whether the foot is on the ground or not. A heart bar shoe with the bar bent up too much so it constantly presses on the frog whether the foot is loaded or not is another example of pressure.

Frog “support” is when the frog has something to load onto when there is weight on the foot but unloads when the foot is not weighted. So “support” gives the frog something to load onto when the foot is weighted, and does not actively push up into the frog when the foot unloads. It is more dynamic, a give and take. And support does not push the frog up into the foot very much when loaded. It mostly just prevents the frog from sinking down beyond where it is when unloaded. Support can turn into pressure if the frog support appliance extends distally past the ground surface of the heels of the shoe.

~http://www.hoofcareonline.com/More_Articles.html

Please read the difference between frog PRESSURE and frog SUPPORT … !!
And while Patty talks about shoes, think of the constant pressure on a foot that has NO HEELS (yeah, and I mean NO heels – 1 mm of heel? Arghhhh! – the heel, from where it begins at the deepest part of the collateral groove to the ground bearing surface SHOULD be no less than 3/4"; preferably 1"… Or … 1/8th - 1/4" ABOVE LIVE SOLE at the seat of corn.
Sheeeeeeeeesh – I HATE getting those calls about this trim “method” that’s goin’ round … taking away all the heels and letting the frog bear full, constant weight! What happened to the frog PASSIVELY contacting the ground when the horse is static and having FULL contact when the hoof is loaded? That’s the way the hoof is hardwired …

[LMH]

@Auventera Two;5754216

It might be responsible, or it might not be. IT DEPENDS.

Unless you say ‘it depends’ in response to a question of a forum, then it would indeed be irresponsible.

Every horse and every hoof on that horse is different.

Did I forget to make this point? If so thank you for clarifying

Sometimes lowering and backing up heels consistently does indeed fix their underrun nature. Sometimes it does not. It depends on a few things - the conformation of hoof and leg involved, environment, trimming schedule, work load, frog health.

Again thank you for adding something that I overlooked-or I should say, that somehow my comment of this nature did not show up on your screen.

You cannot simplify hooves down into threads and discussions on chat boards. I used to think you can, but now I know better. There are too many variables. Hoof trimming is as much art as it is science in my opinion. I can’t say what I would do with a foot unless that foot is in my hand and that horse is standing in front of me with all the information laid out on the table.

Wow-GREAT observation-but that fact does not mean a positive discussion can not be valuable.

Again-if you feel this way, why are you wasting your time?

[caballus]

[QUOTE=LMH;5754225]
Thank you Gwen for contributing to the ‘point of the thread’

I look forward to the link from Patty when you have the chance.[/QUOTE] You’re very welcome! As I said, this has been a rant of mine for quite some time now. My soapbox just keeps on getting taller and taller with every horse that’s lamed from this BS !!!

[LMH]

[B]It mostly just prevents the frog from sinking down beyond where it is when unloaded.

[/B]This…

This is why heel height is such a huge individual thing-why ‘underrun heels’ may actually be ‘correct’ for where the foot is at this moment…why trying to bring them back too aggressive can be a very bad idea.

Something that is really happening a lot out there and needs to be addressed (even if it means getting Vickey all wadded up).

Just like total flare removal was a huge fad not so long ago. Just like so many trends and fads that seem to attach to certain methods.

SO to respond to the accusation that my ‘method’ of no method is superior-well i guess it would be. :lol:

Actually having enough experience with good and perfectly awful results to realize a ‘method’ is only the beginning. It is not something to hold and adhere to as if it promises eternal salvation.

[LMH]

@caballus;5754236

You’re very welcome! As I said, this has been a rant of mine for quite some time now. My soapbox just keeps on getting taller and taller with every horse that’s lamed from this BS !!!

Well that is another motivator that triggered this discussion. I guess there was a DEEP secret agenda.

I just really wondered if anyone had photos that showed what i asked…just in case I missed one.

Glad you saw where I was trying to go and got me there faster-thanks.