Sometimes lowering and backing up heels consistently does indeed fix their underrun nature. Sometimes it does not. It depends on a few things - the conformation of hoof and leg involved, environment, trimming schedule, work load, frog health.
Must have missed this earlier – keeping the TOES backed up is what is going to get the weight bearing back where it belongs and stimulate the heels, frog and DC to begin functioning properly again. Of course, too, bringing the heels BACK, also, but long, low, forward heels are generally already too “Low” … get those TOES back and bring the heels back to the widest part of the frog (or as close as you can without jeopardizing the height too much) and get the COR back where it belongs.
Being prone to and not corrected are two different things.
So you’re trying to say trimming has no effect on hoof angle? That doesn’t make any sense.
[QUOTE=LMH;5754163]didn’t Bowker say somewhere around 4 yo the internal structures are pretty well set?[/QUOTE] Don’t know, I think Patty Stiller said 5 or 6 years. I’ve seen improvement in the front heel bulbs in my horse when he was older than that.
OK, something we agree on, because I believe we agree about the importance of bar support in the heels.
Probably not (if the trim is reasonably good and angles are changed gradually), since it’s not all about the heels.
You have to look at WHY a particular horse is prone to underrun heels in order to manage him the best way in the long run, but you still have to trim. It doesn’t make any sense to tell someone whose horses’ heels are underrun not to bring them back though.
OK I just read Gwen’s comments (which I like) and I think the argument here is about good trimming vs bad trimming… yes it’s possible to bring the heel down too far but that’s not a good trim.
With a horse that has a flat foot it is a very fine line between getting the heels back far enough and forcing the horse to depend too much on the frog for support. With my own horse the biggest problem with his back feet is the fact that he wears his bars off on his own in the summer. Soft tissue support probably isn’t optimal in back either.
OK Gwen-take the idea of support and pressure into the real world.
Let’s say you have a healthy young horse-his ‘preferred heel height’ is 1/8 inch above the frog (unloaded, laying a rasp across the heels)…now you start working him harder…maybe even add in jumping-he suddenly grows more heel (tall, forward, however he grows it)
Does this mean he needs to be trimmed-or has he just adjusted his heel height (or heel lenght) to take the new ‘pressure’ back to a supporting role.
[QUOTE=LMH;5754279]
OK Gwen-take the idea of support and pressure into the real world.
Let’s say you have a healthy young horse-his ‘preferred heel height’ is 1/8 inch above the frog (unloaded, laying a rasp across the heels)…now you start working him harder…maybe even add in jumping-he suddenly grows more heel (tall, forward, however he grows it)
Does this mean he needs to be trimmed-or has he just adjusted his heel height (or heel lenght) to take the new ‘pressure’ back to a supporting role. ;)[/QUOTE]
Does not the hoof growth theoretically = the hoof wear? The hoof, if maintained properly, will grow what it needs. Remember, the natural horse,in the wild, travels many, many miles in a 24 hour period of time. Granted, the feral horse is not ridden or jumped but also remember, the hoof lands with 10,000 lbs of pressure per square INCH … so it must have the resources internally and externally to prevent collapse. And also don’t forget how much environment has to play with it all. The horses on the shore have AWFUL looking hooves … long, slung, cracked while the mustang model hoof (which is fine for the dry arid horses but NOT fine for, say, New England horses or Central valley horses etc.) … environment. And diet (yep - we’re back to it all now) has alot to do – what goes ‘in’ grows out … too much processed foods, the body is in constant ‘fighting invaders mode’ with pumping out those leukocytes, and inability to process sugars, etc. just simply cause its overwhelmed with stress from trying to eat the processed foods. That goes straight to the hooves – causing shelly, leafy, soft horn. So it all plays a part. There isn’t just ONE or TWO factors that are causative in long toe/low heel … although trimming is a MAJOR factor. But all the rest, as was stated before, plays a part, too. Particularly … m.o.v.e.m.e.n.t.
And btw – its 5 years of development for std. horse hooves.
[QUOTE=LMH;5754294]
Exactly. Again, my point.[/QUOTE]
Then you should have said that in the first place. :lol:
You were asking for pictures that showed improvement and you got them, and then rejected them. That’s not the same as saying that heels can be brought down too far too soon.
Seriously, I really can’t imagine an argument for not bringing underrun heels back, ever. Underrun heels strains the soft tissue way too much, all of the time. The horse can’t use himself correctly. Even if the underrun heels are caused by an injury up top, just letting the heels run away isn’t going to help, but will make the horse even more sore.
The whole point of a bad trim is that it creates issues, some of them very serious. In those cases the trim has 90+ % importance.
Quick note to LMH … my mustang mare didn’t get trimmed for 3 years. (Seriously! ) … she’d get long come springtime wet season but then summer would go right back to ‘normal’. Kept herself perfectly balanced. Never a lame step. But with my on farm class that I ran this past spring she was trimmed. Damn – wish I hadn’t allowed that. Now she’s growing back imbalanced, flared, etc. Should have left her alone …
I am not certain I agree-I think the ‘wait and see approach’ may give better information than immediately assuming he needs to be trimmed.
If he grew and leveled off at a new height (same 1/4 inch above the frog to keep consistent with my above example) and he stayed there for months-then in fact, his new heel height may be considered correct? No?
I believe it. I have one horse that has still not been trimmed since March 2010. He constantly self trims in different ways and at different speeds-but his ‘balance’ when considered over weeks and months stays the same.
My filly is the same on her rears-her fronts require a bit more thought. Recently I allowed her heels to grow and finally decided they needed something-a few rasp strokes and waited it out-now a couple of weeks later and she is back to ‘wear = growth’
[QUOTE=LMH;5754330]
I am not certain I agree-I think the ‘wait and see approach’ may give better information than immediately assuming he needs to be trimmed.
If he grew and leveled off at a new height (same 1/4 inch above the frog to keep consistent with my above example) and he stayed there for months-then in fact, his new heel height may be considered correct? No?[/QUOTE] Yes, I would think, after months of maintaining the ‘new’ height that the hoof is saying … that’s it! This is it. BUT … if the hoof continues to morph long and low, forward heels, continuing in that growth cycle then I would say ‘something’s wrong’ and I’d get that boy trimmed up.
[QUOTE=LMH;5754335]
I believe it. I have one horse that has still not been trimmed since March 2010. He constantly self trims in different ways and at different speeds-but his ‘balance’ when considered over weeks and months stays the same.
My filly is the same on her rears-her fronts require a bit more thought. Recently I allowed her heels to grow and finally decided they needed something-a few rasp strokes and waited it out-now a couple of weeks later and she is back to ‘wear = growth’[/QUOTE] Ponies … need a trim. (my ponies). BUT …since we’ve now dried up thoroughly (no longer mud or flood) they are breaking apart the excess wall and trimming themselves up nicely. I may just let them continue, save my neck and back, and see how they do. They certainly run around enough and play and gallop about and we have plenty of ‘varied’ terrain – rocks, gravel, sand, some soft woods and grass but FINALLY – DRY! Yay!
OK let me rephrase my request in light of the discussion-
I will stand my this theory-and am looking for photos to disprove it…
I don’t think trimming alone will ‘correct’ underrun heels. I simply don’t think trimming alone ‘corrects’ any issue.
Outside of one circumstance-the mistrimmed horse-the disaster trimmer that trimmed improperly and the horse needs help-though this horse, if left unabused by the weekend warrior, will find a natural’ set point’ to his feet-remember the old farrier/vet advice when a horse had bad feet? Pull his shoes and turn him out for 6 months and see what you have.
At THIS point you have the ability to observe what the real issue is-and address that-maybe diet, maybe body work is needed, maybe internal weakness.
So when asking for photos-had anyone shown a foot that did show ‘corrected underrun heels’ I would have asked the history and background-was the exercise program one to develop the hoof-what was that program.
Trimmers are actually walking to to a fail situation more often than not-trim a horse and walk away with often no control in how the horse is fed or asked to move (on his forehand? Is the RH lateral flare because he is not traveling straight?)
The horse flops around in months of transition and ‘barefoot fails’ when in fact it was the other management issues that were not addressed.
A few years ago the idea of mineral balancing became very popular-I jumped on this bandwagon-but as is being discussed in another thread-maybe one horse is an easy keeping breed that needs 1/4 of the recommended dose-maybe those excess minerals are taxing his system and that is showing up in poor hoof form.
So to respond to never bringing back underrun heels-you are missing the BINGO of the discussion…you can NOT bring them back without lowering them. Impossible.
Each rasp stroke lowers the heel even more-if only the thickness of the rasp stroke-on that horse, unless you are going to put it back with a shoe, removing it on that day could be very wrong.
The wiser choice (in my experience) is creating a program that involves controlled exercise (maybe only handwalking) on a surface that creates ‘support’ (not pressure) and leave whatever heel height he has.
Very often (again in my experience) when the exercise and diet are addressed, those hoof issues that trimmers want to trim away resolve without trimming at all.
If they do not, then it may still not be a trim issue-it may be the overall program needs to be evaluated.
I’m a bit skeptical that these low heeled horses can be rescued by a barefoot specialist. I’ve not seen the results, nor have I had anybody that I know of take one of these low heeled TB types and change it around and document it.
I’ve seen young racehorses start out with heels, but lose the height as they mature, especially on the inside foot. The farrier is often blamed - don’t really agree that there is so much bad foot care out there.
But I am working on the theory that when a horse eats hay off the ground they very often put only one foot forward (as opposed to grazing when they move each foot forward alternately. It seems to me this loads the weight on one heel only.
Any comments?
Agree. I’m posting this photo only because 2 years ago this horse was so crippled she could barely walk with extremely sheered heels, squared toes, low heels … she was just a mess. Now, she’s one of my EASIEST trims of the month. Her LF remains an issue only because it grows funky from an old injury so that requires a bit more adjustment. BUT … the way she grows tells me she’s not only moving but also (and I forgot to mention this before) she’s moving BALANCED and being RIDDEN balanced/correctly. Riding also affects the hooves. I can tell when a rider is imbalanced simply from seeing the repeated growth pattern of the hooves. (see below comment about body movement) But here’s the photo of just one of this horse’s hooves: about as ‘perfect’ as they get!
Outside of one circumstance-the mistrimmed horse-the disaster trimmer that trimmed improperly and the horse needs help-though this horse, if left unabused by the weekend warrior, will find a natural’ set point’ to his feet-remember the old farrier/vet advice when a horse had bad feet? Pull his shoes and turn him out for 6 months and see what you have.
At THIS point you have the ability to observe what the real issue is-and address that-maybe diet, maybe body work is needed, maybe internal weakness.
So when asking for photos-had anyone shown a foot that did show ‘corrected underrun heels’ I would have asked the history and background-was the exercise program one to develop the hoof-what was that program.
Trimmers are actually walking to to a fail situation more often than not-trim a horse and walk away with often no control in how the horse is fed or asked to move (on his forehand? Is the RH lateral flare because he is not traveling straight?)
The horse flops around in months of transition and ‘barefoot fails’ when in fact it was the other management issues that were not addressed.
You’ve got it nailed, LMH.
So to respond to never bringing back underrun heels-you are missing the BINGO of the discussion…you can NOT bring them back without lowering them. Impossible.
You’re correct but we can lower them only enough as is part of the ‘bringing back’ … and no more. One stroke of the rasp can easily bring the heels back where they belong (or, close to; don’t want to lower them, right?)
Each rasp stroke lowers the heel even more-if only the thickness of the rasp stroke-on that horse, unless you are going to put it back with a shoe, removing it on that day could be very wrong.
Yep, that’s true. And there have been times when I’ve only brought the toes back and done nothing to the heels for this simple reason.
The wiser choice (in my experience) is creating a program that involves controlled exercise (maybe only handwalking) on a surface that creates ‘support’ (not pressure) and leave whatever heel height he has.
10 mins on a tarred road will condition more than anything I can think of.
Very often (again in my experience) when the exercise and diet are addressed, those hoof issues that trimmers want to trim away resolve without trimming at all.
If they do not, then it may still not be a trim issue-it may be the overall program needs to be evaluated.
Ta da!
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;5754401]
I’m a bit skeptical that these low heeled horses can be rescued by a barefoot specialist. I’ve not seen the results, nor have I had anybody that I know of take one of these low heeled TB types and change it around and document it.
I’ve seen young racehorses start out with heels, but lose the height as they mature, especially on the inside foot. The farrier is often blamed - don’t really agree that there is so much bad foot care out there.
But I am working on the theory that when a horse eats hay off the ground they very often put only one foot forward (as opposed to grazing when they move each foot forward alternately. It seems to me this loads the weight on one heel only.
Any comments?[/QUOTE] I’ve done enough OTTB’s over the last decade to know they CAN be ‘rescued’ by barefoot ‘specialist’ (cause that’s what I do grin) … Chism, on this board, has an OTTB who came in with major issues. He has, and I quote, “drop dead gorgeous” hooves now. Didn’t get that way with alot of hard work! But yes, it CAN be done and I wish more trimmers (and farriers, too!) knew this and knew HOW to help. Unfortunately, too many of them follow a set ‘method’ or set of angle numbers, etc, that precludes full rehab of the individual bare hoof on the individual horse. There is NO ‘one trim fits all’ but one must trim the ‘hoof-in-hand’ on the ‘horse-in-hand’. So, guess one can say it all depends, right?
BUT … if the hoof continues to morph long and low, forward heels, continuing in that growth cycle then I would say ‘something’s wrong’ and I’d get that boy trimmed up.
