You forgot to ask for photos.:lol:
From the link you posted, Rick
“There is little scientific data describing the effects of any type of barefoot trim, particularly in horses that participate in regular exercise in a riding arena, or how such trimming may affect the overall conformation and health of the foot for an extended period of time.”
Evidently I am not the only person that was looking for hard evidence of claims of correcting underrun heels?
More…
“There are some key elements to this study that must be understood: The horses lived in a pasture, not in stalls. They received regular daily exercise (one to three hours) under saddle on a sand arena in a riding program five days a week. The horses were all Arabians of similar height and weight and age (average 13.6 years).”
Think about the details of this…1-3 hours of exercise 5 days a week…this combined with the trim are what it took to get results.
Thank you Rick for posting this-I wish I could get more details…but it certainly implies there are not many ‘corrected’ heels from trimming alone.
This is what started this query…claims and claims of ‘corrected’ heels that were in fact only shortened with no true change in the angle of growth.
Do you know if the entire paper is available somewhere?
‘In the end, this study is not a victory for barefoot over shoes. This is a victory for showing that trimming alone can achieve a morphological change.’
Actually the study showed trimming with significant exercise one breed of horses can show improvement. :lol:
“The interesting aspects of the study are the way that the hoof morphology changed in one aspect then changed back. For instance, the area of the frog initially increased, then decreased.”
The above also catches my eye-about things changing back-that hoof ‘reset point’ I have mentioned.
I think the study will be even more interesting if they follow these horses to see if any other parts of the hoof ‘morph’-like those pesky underrun heels for example! 
Spelling this out for the ‘peanut gallery’-are the heels still just being ‘managed’ or have they corrected?
What happens if the horses are only now worked 3 days a week? Or stalled 12 hours a day.
If the UR heels have been ‘corrected’ then they should not return.
Well here are some photos to mess with your brain on 3D surface geometry and perspective.
http://blackburnforge.com/images/P1010001.JPG
http://blackburnforge.com/images/P1010002.JPG
http://blackburnforge.com/images/P1010006.JPG
Note how the lines appear to not be parallel in some of the images, when in fact they are parallel on the SURFACE of the paper.
Carry on…you have my attention.
Look at that-even the spammer agrees with me!:lol:
Ok here’s some more . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature
A hoof wall with no distortion has Gaussian Curvature = ZERO.
[QUOTE=Tom Bloomer;5755376]
Sorry, I’m gonna have to call you on that assertion. You are going to have to produce the math to support it - I bet you can’t. :lol:[/QUOTE]Don’t apologize … legit question. And to be honest? I read this ‘fact’ years ago and it was so astounding to me I never forgot it. I’ve read others that say 2.5# psi of the horse’s weight (so, for a 1200# horse that means about 3600# psi over an 18" jump while the pressure increases as the size of the jump increases. Dr. Schils says,
"Biomechanics of Jumping
Dr. Sheila Schils, Ph.D.
Jumping can be a demanding sport for the horse, however, as with most everything it depends on how it is done. The big difference between jumping and other types of equine activities is the force of gravity that the horse must overcome during take off, and then reduce upon landing. The force on the horse’s foot upon landing from a 2-foot jump is about 3156 pounds, and landing from a four-foot fence places about 4509 pounds on one foot." -http://equinew.com/jumping.htm
as for the math? here ya go: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.westminstercollege.edu%2Fstudents%2Frcs0505%2FPhysics%20project%20final.doc&rct=j&q=how%20much%20pressure%20on%20the%20hooves%20when%20horse%20jumps%3F%20&ei=8Cc5TpvVO8LW0QGH9uXvAw&usg=AFQjCNGCzSF14XfRCWJh4utNf7SA6G6QNw assuming the ‘math’ is correct. I HATE math and admittedly pass by with the barest of skills in that department.
but I don’t have the reference for the 10,000#. I remember the figure clearly from, as I said, something read years ago. … and have never forgotten it. So, Mr. Bloomer, just to feed your ego first thing in the morning, you’re right! 
At any rate, the psi is tremendous — and regardless of 3600# or 10,000# psi the hooves have to be s.t.r.o.n.g. to withstand this type of pressure. !!! Yow! It amazes me that such small ‘units’ of ‘locomotion’ are so intricately designed as to be able to even stand up to the gallop or trot of a 1200# animal!
well, I dont think I have to defend the pics of “Lenny” I posted above. you know what they say: “a picture is worth 1000 words” I think they speak for themselves
on top of being severely underrun, his frogs where also so infected that they fell out when I rubbed my finger down them. his soles where so paper thin that you could push on them. He was under new ownership when I got to him. on top of correcting his feet, we also corrected his diet (yep, I know a little about that too), and with the use of casting/pads we improved his way of moving, which he did A LOT of. and he was out 24/7 on semi-deep sand lot. this helped him a lot in his recovery. it was a team effort, and we were all on the same page with him. and it worked… honestly, I dont care if you believe me or not.
I once had a teacher tell me “humility is teachability”… as long as you keep telling yourself, you know it ALL, you will never grow.
However, I also found more examples on Pete’s site
http://hoofrehab.com/rehabilitations1.htm
check out the 5th case on the left hand side.
and the 1st, 8th, 13th, and 15th case on the right hand side
You know really, I have nothing to “prove” here. I have all the proof I need in the horses I treat, and the happy clients I leave in my wake.
Im in the dirt, sweating under the horse, getting my azz kicked everyday, and thats enough for me. how about YOU?
just because YOU have “theories” and big mouth does not make you right. explore all the “junk science” you want, the proof is in the pudding
NOW, where are YOUR PICTURES to prove otherwise??? patiently waiting…
ETA - what I do is mainly rehabs, then, once the horse in a stable foot, I hand the client back to the farrier who requested my consult, or the clients new farrier (with trimming instructions). After Lenny was passed to clients farrier, his condition has not returned… and its been about 10 months or so… he is toting kids around 4-H this year… and thats good enough for me
I hate that we keep having to address this precision thing…
you suggest I am not a trimmer ‘by trade’-could you explain to me the requirements of being a ‘trimmer by trade?’
And I am not a lawyer by training? Once again-what does this mean?
I am really not following your ridicule.
Photos showing they are not corrected?
It seems they are all over…I have tons of photos showing heels that have been managed well but are not ‘corrected’
I think that was my point.
You are a lawyer by training: Trained to argue. You heart argue. When others tire of the loopy, incessant Leah-ness of your minutiae level micro-hissies, it’s boring. If that study was on a myriad of breeds, you’d cry out but what about the Akhal-Tekes??! What about the bay roans???!!
As noted before, it’s kinda like wrestling with a pig. Only one of you is enjoying it. I’m sorry you lack sufficient stimuli in your life, but none of us are required to provide it to you.
Trimmer by trade: You don’t pay your house note trimming feet. I am thoroughly confident you don’t finance Bellhaven Equine Solutions…with a rasp.
okayyyyyyyy:confused:
Tom I am having a little trouble with your method of foreplay-would you mind just getting to it please?
wait… YOU ARE NOT A TRIMMER?.. FARRIER?..
how many horses do you crawl under a day? get your hands cut/banged up, in the dirt, and get your azz kicked? how does your back feel at the end of the day?
psstph!!! im out…
I see an increase in heel depth, a decrease in heel length but I do not see any change in the ‘new growth’ coming out of the hairline.
Perhaps you need glasses???
PS. NO, you do NOT have permission to use my photos in ANY fashion. I will NOT allow you take any credit for MY work, and I will NOT have YOU affiliated with me under any circumstance, thanks for asking though… BTW - I also know both Bowker and Clayton… Michigan, DUH! have spoke with Hilary in person on SEVERAL occasions. Mostly about her bio-mechanics research and how I can apply her techniques as part of my rehabs
[B]Again you are completely correct! If you have noticed on my website, I no longer ‘finance’ BES in anyway.
I had a family emergency/tragedy that started in 2009 that required me to stop all outside work. The ‘fallout’ from that is still ongoing.
So it really IS a blessing that I was not relying on trimming for that house note!
[/B]
Seems that you read the force unit distribution incorrectly . . . multiplying instead of dividing.
That 3600 is total force distributed NOT force multiplied per square area - PSI.
“Dr. Sheila Schills reports that a horse jumping a 0.61 meter high fence experiences 3156 pounds of force on the first landing hoof while a horse jumping a 1.21 meter fence experiences 4509 pounds (Dr. Schills.)”
Next time you do, please do tell her I look forward to reading the study in full!
[QUOTE=Tom Bloomer;5755527]
Seems that you read the force unit distribution incorrectly . . . multiplying instead of dividing.
That 3600 is total force distributed NOT force multiplied per square area - PSI.
“Dr. Sheila Schills reports that a horse jumping a 0.61 meter high fence experiences 3156 pounds of force on the first landing hoof while a horse jumping a 1.21 meter fence experiences 4509 pounds (Dr. Schills.)”[/QUOTE]
Ackkkkkkkkkkkkkk… BLECH… multiply, divide, force distributed vs. force multiplied … hey, I ain’t Greek and this is truly all greek to me. !! LOL
I thought I did get to it.
Gaussian curvature is a means of mathematically expressing geometric distortion in curved surfaces.
The SURFACE of the hoof wall grows as series of tubules (radians) projected from the coronary band. When these tubules bend in any direction, there is distortion. The tubules can diverge or converge without distortion as long as they don’t bend on a different axis than their adjacent tubules (radians).
If you wrap a piece of paper around the hoof and the paper lies perfectly flat against the entire surface without kinking or buckling, then the surface of the hoof has no distortion.
You can wrap paper around a cone or a cylinder. Can’t wrap paper around a ball or a hyperboloid without kinking.
Dressing flares removes positive distortion. You can’t dress or trim away negative distortion - which is what happens with “underrun” heels (SIC).
However, since the heels are integral to the entire surface of the hoof wall, it is physically impossible for the heels to distort negative without some other part of the wall or the BARS (which are also part of the hoof SURFACE) distorting positive.
Look at the pictures . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaussian_curvature.PNG
Positive, Zero, and Negative.
1 Like
I think Dr. LaPierre is a genius. :lol:
