Looking for before/after photos of 'corrected underrun heels'

[Auventera_Two]

LMH - I still am failing to understand the point of this thread, apparently. If you wanted photos of a corrected underrun heel - you got it. But you don’t want to accept it.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you don’t just put a trim on your horses that works, and forget about it. I don’t understand the need to argue with The Internet over every little rasp swipe.

Since 2007 (admittedly a very short time), I have been trimming horses evenings and weekends. Heck, I’ve even taken vacation days from my desk job just to get caught up on all my trimming work. There are weeks that I trim 25-30 horses, and weeks when I get a break and only trim 10. But they are all different, and they all present unique challenges. Some of them need massive amounts of food and supplements to stay healthy and useful, and some eat nothing but grass/hay and are doing perfectly. Some need trimming every 3 weeks, some get trimmed 2x a year. Some have beautiful, perfect feet regardless of what I do, and some get distortions if I make the smallest mistake. I have traveled to Southern Illinois and to Tennessee to trim feet and their feet are different than the feet I see here in Northeastern WI. I have trimmed feet in Michigan, Idaho, Pensylvania, and Florida. I have about 5 horses on my book that recently moved here from Western states (one was a regular client of Jamie Jackson.) I trim donkeys, mules, and horses. I’ve seen horses 8 weeks out from a trim that looked like they were trimmed yesterday. And I’ve seen them 8 weeks out that had duck flappers. Let me tell ya, I got a REAL hard and fast course in “IT DEPENDS.” The more feet you see, the more you realize - holy crap I never saw this before. And I’ve only been trimming for other people for a little over 4 years now. Imagine once you do this for 30-50 years.

I learned the hard way - you just can’t get on The Internet and argue away your life on The One Correct Way to trim a horse. It doesn’t work that way. There are things I would do “in theory” but when I actually get under the horse, I might do something entirely different.

With all due respect - you trim your own and no more. You told me in a phone conversation that you were way too scared to take on the responsibility of trimming other peoples’ horses. I get that. It’s scary. There are nights I lay awake wondering if I did the right thing. And if you think trimming and gluing on shoes is scary, wait until you start nailing them on. The first few times I nailed a horse up I was scared to death they were going to be lame the next day.

You jump from Method to Method to Method. You change Methods like people change underwear. You are constantly seeking out and demanding The Next Holy Grail that will give you that one secret truth that nobody else has. There isn’t one Leah.

You claim that the only way your horses have perfect feet that never need trimming is to not feed them any vitamins or minerals. Fine, great for you. That won’t work for me. Mine get a full balanced profile and multiple supplements. And they all have beautiful, hard feet that never EVER chip or crack. Your plan works for you, mine works for me, fine. Including boarders I have 7 horses on my farm and every one of them needs a little bit different trim on a little bit different cycle.

[caballus]

[QUOTE=Tom Bloomer;5755597]
I thought I did get to it.

Gaussian curvature is a means of mathematically expressing geometric distortion in curved surfaces.

The SURFACE of the hoof wall grows as series of tubules (radians) projected from the coronary band. When these tubules bend in any direction, there is distortion. The tubules can diverge or converge without distortion as long as they don’t bend on a different axis than their adjacent tubules (radians).

If you wrap a piece of paper around the hoof and the paper lies perfectly flat against the entire surface without kinking or buckling, then the surface of the hoof has no distortion.

You can wrap paper around a cone or a cylinder. Can’t wrap paper around a ball or a hyperboloid without kinking.

Dressing flares removes positive distortion. You can’t dress or trim away negative distortion - which is what happens with “underrun” heels (SIC).

However, since the heels are integral to the entire surface of the hoof wall, it is physically impossible for the heels to distort negative without some other part of the wall or the BARS (which are also part of the hoof SURFACE) distorting positive.

Look at the pictures . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaussian_curvature.PNG

Positive, Zero, and Negative.[/QUOTE]

Ah ha! THIS I get! THX, Tom.

And … back to what LMH originally said, (IF I understood her correctly) … the tubules ALWAYS grow perpendicular to the coronary. BUT – add that to the above and now, if the hoof has any distortion then the tubules follow that distortion AS they grow out … yes? Is that a correct summary, LMH?

And that explains why, when trimming the dorsal hoof wall, the ANGLE of the hoof wall should match the angle at the periople as this is where the NEW growth occurs and is correct for that hoof.

TA DA!!! Ta da?

LOL

And now my granddaughter and I have to be domestic and go grocery shopping (another BLECH!) C Ya latta!

[Auventera_Two]

Gwen - what you just typed is what I was taught when I first started learning from a local farrier. His mantra is “New follows old.” He is adamant about removing as much flare and distortion as possible. No distortion left to propogate new distortion. He taught me that the little harmless looking flare left today can turn into your biggest hoof nightmare 8 weeks from now. It’s a lesson that has served me well.

He’s an older guy and is really cutting back his workload so I’m getting a fairly steady stream of his customers. Consistently I have found that when I trim horses that he has trimmed for any length of time, they tend to have nice balanced feet that are healthy and strong and do fine barefooted. When I trim feet behind a couple of the other whiz-bang type farriers in this area that don’t take the time to remove distortion and flare, that’s where the horses have many problems. There is a farrier here who prides himself on his 7-10 minute trims. He makes it a personal goal of his to get in and out of your barn in 10 minutes or less. Well, guess what. Those are the horses that tend to have run forward toes, thin soles, underrun heels, and problems with abscessing and lameness. He too is an old guy, almost retired so I’ve gotten some of his work as well. The guy who does a 30 minute trim really takes the time to make sure everything is done thoroughly before he packs up his tools.

[caballus]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5755758]
Gwen - what you just typed is what I was taught when I first started learning from a local farrier. His mantra is “New follows old.” He is adamant about removing as much flare and distortion as possible. No distortion left to propogate new distortion. He taught me that the little harmless looking flare left today can turn into your biggest hoof nightmare 8 weeks from now. It’s a lesson that has served me well.

He’s an older guy and is really cutting back his workload so I’m getting a fairly steady stream of his customers. Consistently I have found that when I trim horses that he has trimmed for any length of time, they tend to have nice balanced feet that are healthy and strong and do fine barefooted. When I trim feet behind a couple of the other whiz-bang type farriers in this area that don’t take the time to remove distortion and flare, that’s where the horses have many problems.[/QUOTE] Quick reply before groceries (this is MUCH more fun!) … yes, this is what I learned eons ago and what I’ve always taught, too. And yes, has served ‘us’ well over the years. And yes, I see flares left by others and I cringe cause I KNOW what’s down the road.

To go back quickly, tho, to my own mustang girl – no trims for 3 years and even though she got long in the toe and heel when the wet turned dry she trimmed herself and never any cracks, chipping or imbalances. She maintained herself perfectly (other than the length). But, after being trimmed, now she is growing in imbalanced and I need to get after it so then I can leave her alone again. !!

I had posted photos of before and afters for student critiques so they could see their finished product and someone else (outside PENZANCE) proceeded to rip me a new hairdo – telling me that the hooves as they were before being trimmed were so bad there was no way the horse was sound. She had to be lame in all 4 so I didn’t notice she was lame. (ExCUSE me? Ummm, Okaaaaaay) … anyway … we went round and about until I posted some photos of Moor hooves that were long, chipped, flaring cracked … oh my! Horrific feet on GASP “wild horses” !! (But she didn’t know they were ferals) … accusations of neglect, abuse, etc. and no way were those horses “sound”. I finally told her they were horses from the moors in the UK and she never, ever replied. Hahahaha … got her on that one. grin Of course the horses were/are sound. Otherwise they wouldn’t be there to have their photos taken.

Point being on that one was their hooves adapt to the environment (and yes, their genetics as they evolve on the shores and in the moors) and even though they LOOKED horrific, they were obviously sound. I’ll have to go back, though, and see what those tubules looked like if the photos will enlarge to the extent that they can still be clear.

[LMH]

@Auventera Two;5755733

LMH - I still am failing to understand the point of this thread, apparently.

I can’t help you with your lack of understanding

If you wanted photos of a corrected underrun heel - you got it. But you don’t want to accept it.

I did not get acceptable photos.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you don’t just put a trim on your horses that works, and forget about it.

I do…it does not stop me from wanting a deeper understanding of the hoof. I am not content that the knowledge of today is all there is. Years ago we thought protein caused founder, then sugars, what is next? It is called progressive learning. Try it out some time.

I don’t understand the need to argue with The Internet over every little rasp swipe.

I don’t either

I learned the hard way - you just can’t get on The Internet and argue away your life on The One Correct Way to trim a horse.

[B]I am not arguing one way-you seem stuck on a theme. Refocus

[/B]It doesn’t work that way. There are things I would do “in theory” but when I actually get under the horse, I might do something entirely different.

Newsflash?

And if you think trimming and gluing on shoes is scary, wait until you start nailing them on. The first few times I nailed a horse up I was scared to death they were going to be lame the next day.

Wow you have been under a rock.

You jump from Method to Method to Method.

And you are thick thick thick-I do not believe one “method” has it all-I have and always will continue to look into what is available. I have taken something from every ‘method’ I have learned. Diversity makes a well rounded education.

You change Methods like people change underwear.

Speak for yourself sweetie. I pride myself on fresh panties daily.

You are constantly seeking out and demanding The Next Holy Grail that will give you that one secret truth that nobody else has. There isn’t one Leah.

[B]Fully aware of that-read for comprehension…no one method has all the answers.

What are you having such a difficult time understanding the desire to learn more and have a deeper understanding of hoof care? If it ain’t your thang, that’s cool…but it is mine.
[/B]
You claim that the only way your horses have perfect feet that never need trimming is to not feed them any vitamins or minerals.

Never once said that-if this is your understanding no wonder that comprehension issue keeps rearing its ugly head.

Fine, great for you. That won’t work for me. Mine get a full balanced profile and multiple supplements. And they all have beautiful, hard feet that never EVER chip or crack. Your plan works for you, mine works for me, fine. Including boarders I have 7 horses on my farm and every one of them needs a little bit different trim on a little bit different cycle.

Should we join hands and sing Kumbya now? I hope you feel better that you were able to purge all of that but it has no relevance to my question or quest for information.

Thank you for continuing to share-I do have one little request the next time you feel the need to share-please read with a brighter light so I don’t have to waste my time correcting your dramatic fallacies.

[Jumpin_Horses]

[QUOTE=LMH;5755901]
Should we join hands and sing Kumbya now? I hope you feel better that you were able to purge all of that but it has no relevance to my question or quest for information.

Thank you for continuing to share-I do have one little request the next time you feel the need to share-please read with a brighter light so I don’t have to waste my time correcting your dramatic fallacies.[/QUOTE]

just wow, (IMO) you are just plain rude, egotistical, and you dont have a very good life

I feel sorry for you

[Auventera_Two]

In your constant driving desire to lash back against any one “Method” Leah, you are failing to see that you are indeed following yet one more Method. The method of no vitamins/minerals, little to no trimming, let the ponies run free and wear their feet off method. If they chip and break apart, so be it. Just let nature take its course and in another 2 weeks that sharp chip will be worn down to a smooth notch. In another year you’ll be searching for something else after you decide this didn’t work. I have been following your threads very closely since I first became interested in hooves. You have a NEED to be strictly adhered to one perfect truth and admonish all else, until that one perfect truth fails you, then you move on and worship that one perfect truth…it’s a cycle that you get trapped in over and over. Just let the horses dictate what you do on a daily basis.

Why don’t you just use what works for today and when it fails to work anymore, change it. I don’t see the need for internet drama and fights over it. Just do whatever you want to do and quit worrying what everybody else thinks or feels. At the end of the day, the only one you have to answer to is the animals within your care.

Right now you are focused on underrun heels but next you will be on toes then frogs then bars then soles then walls then conformation…you do this over and over. You focus so completely on one structure of the hoof and get so wrapped up in the nitnoid minutia of that one structure and then you move on to another structure. I’ve had these conversations with you over the years and every year or so you seem to unlock one perfect truth that nobody else knows that will allow your horses to grow beautiful magestic feet…until it doesn’t work, then you’re frantically digging around looking for the next perfect truth.

I actually feel bad for you because you are in a state of constant searching for that secret decoder ring that will give you all the answers.

[LMH]

Vickey-I really don’t care to go round and round with you. Please don’t be offended if I don’t respond to your personal commentary…outside of one topic

Are you familiar with an idea or concept called the ‘spiral of learning’-it is actually just what you described and how people gain a deeper level of understanding of a topic…you revisit the topic. So if you relate it too hooves, you would learn about frogs, then bars etc…as you learn more about one area you revisit another.

It also happens when you learn to ride-remember when you thought you knew what soft was? Then you learn about forward and supple then you think OH what about soft? And you revisit softness and get a deeper feel.

Really fascinating stuff.

As far as your pity and other personal commentary…you feel sorry for me? Look at you! Why waste your time on this thread? If my system of learning is so burdensome, move along!

On that note-to you and anyone else that feels the need to make personal commentary, please feel free, knock yourselves out…but don’t be offended if I table my southern charm and not respond.

In the meantime, to those that have engaged in the topic-thanks…good stuff

[Auventera_Two]

No need to respond if you don’t feel the desire to. Starting discussions for the purpose of learning is one thing, but that’s not at all what this thread is about.

[LMH]

@Auventera Two;5756441

No need to respond if you don’t feel the desire to. Starting discussions for the purpose of learning is one thing, but that’s not at all what this thread is about.

you little minder reader you!:lol:

[LMH]

Interesting timing-I just got a call from a friend that is a vet and well educated in hoof care.

I asked him if he had ever seen underrun heels ‘cured’ from trimming.

Well call me a fool and a liar but he has not.

To be more specific he said in a mild case if caught in time you “may” be able to ‘correct it.’

However, once the hoof capsule has the curve in the hairline at the heels, the best you can hope for is management.

I was kind of bummed because I enjoy having conversations with him, making an extreme declaration of truth and having him give me points to ponder that may in fact prove me wrong.

I told him about the study that Rick posted and while very interested, his first question was whether the study went beyond the initial trial to learn if the ‘correction’ lasted or the horses returned to having underrun heels again.

I suppose he has an agenda as well.:lol:

[Tom_Bloomer]

@caballus;5755749

. . .
And now my granddaughter and I have to be domestic and go grocery shopping (another BLECH!) C Ya latta!

Ahhh yes, warming groceries on the blech before sabbath. I didn’t know you were Jewish.

[LMH]

Vickey I went to your website (remembering that you always had a lovely site with tons of good photos)…

and you actually can see exactly what i am talking about in every photo.

Because you have the before/after photos neatly posted next to each other, do this…

Click on the photo so it is bigger…now take your hand or a piece of paper and cover the before photo where the ‘over growth is’—so all that is showing is the 'trimmed foot.

Now compare the heel angle on that before photo with the afters.

In every photo, the heel angle is the same-or darn close.

This does not mean you did a bad trim job-quite the opposite…you know i have always felt your trim work is very precise…

You did exactly what you could-you trimmed the hoof into balance, MANAGING the overgrown heel-but in no case was the angle of growth changed…and some of these photos are months later.

The toe takes on a new angle, the overall hoof health improves, the heels are no longer long and growing under the foot-but the angle of the heel appears to be the same in each case.

perhaps this will shed some light on ‘the point of my thread’

Barefoot trimmers (moreso than farriers) make claims like 'barefoot cures underrun heels)…for some reason farriers seem to consider it management…

I just felt this distinction was kind of important…when making claims of curing or claiming, one should be able to back it up with precise documentation.

The agenda? Well one, I wanted to ask for photos first to make sure my initial thoughts were correct-if someone had posted a photo of a cure I could go back to the drawing board.

Two, in light of the influx of trimming newbies, these sorts of distinctions are critical-not only in ethics in dealing with clients, but in the mindset of the trimmer.

If a trimmers sets out to ‘cure’ that heal angle, horses can be overtrimmed, heels whacked off and hurt in the name of getting rid of that run forward heel.

If the mindset is management, a different attitude applies-often a more conservative one that may better benefit the horse.

Perhaps that will clear things up for you and anyone else.

Adding an additional thought-I had this conversation with my vet today…he agrees with my thoughts…certainly he could be wrong as well…but he also has a very large data pool to draw from and as luck would have it is a vet with a strong background in hoofcare.

[LMH]

Here is a link to a photo that shows it perfectly…

(if you want be to remove this link, please just say so and I will-this just shows it SO perfectly)

http://hphoofcare.com/LTLH%20Comparison.jpg

On first glance it LOOKS like the angle of growth of the heel has change dramatically-but it has not…the entire foot is caudally rotated in the before, the entire foot has un-rotated in the after.

If you take the before and 'un-caudually rotate it) as a whole foot, you can clearly see, it is not the angle that is coming out of the heel that has changed.

You CAN see toe angle change coming out of the hairline (not saying so on this photo)-when you see the ridge distinguishing new growth from old…

but not in the heels.

Why do I care and not just pick a method and go ride? Because having a better understanding of WHY something is happening can lead to clues to how to stop it or perhaps correct it.

Maybe there is some connection to the digital cushion or lateral cartilages or some other piece of the puzzle that would open discussion between hoof care providers that would ultimately improve hoof care and horses.

Maybe others are satisfied with the results they get or what they know.

I am not and don’t believe I ever will be-the same goes for training or riding or nutrition, or anything else that touches my life.

Critical thinking, progressive thinking and discussions that emerge from conflicting points of view are what makes everything, every industry or whatever improve.

I am simply baffled that you and others not only don’t understand that concept but are critical of it.

[LMH]

Carrying it further, it is also baffling to me why people assume that because I do not currently trim outside horses it somehow means I (or anyone else) is incapable of learning or bringing new thoughts or ideas to the table.

You can complain all you want about my approach-but let’s face it any hoof thread tanks on most forums-I may as well announce a new topic grandly. :lol:

I am also baffled though humored that you find it somehow a handicap that I have moved from method to method.

I have learned something from every person I studied with, from every method. Even if I had to learn what seems to work and ultimately fails.

You can be critical that I grab on to each one with enthusiasm-as you always are, but the fact remains I have been deeply involved in learning every method available. How can more information somehow be less attractive?

Now if you want to keep spouting dramatic extremes that try to demean what I bring to the table, please be my guest-it does not intimidate me or slow me down-if anything it fuels my fire. So please…carry on.

Another agenda that you will probably spit on-I DO abhor methods-I abhor training methods, dvds in a box and trim methods.

Why? Because if any one method was the holy grail, it would be THE method.

Instead, I have learned there IS no method-but that does not mean there is not valuable input from any one method or that discussions simply talking about theory are worthless.

There are good starting places-KC’s course is still in my mind the best available. But a course without individual thought and experimenting and experience is as valuable as the glue on the dvd box.

I have put up with a lot of slamming on this thread-and certainly egg it on…katarine can accuse me of being an umemployed ‘pig’ all day long-but that does not have one thing to do with my investment of time an energy in a topic for which I feel passionately.

For one-have you considered that my financial security has NO relationship to hooves? I don’t need to sell or do anything or sell out on an idea to pay my bills. So how does that make me more suspect? When someone does not have a financial tie to something, logic dictates that makes them less suspect.

I don’t make one dollar in the horse business and never want to be subject to that again. I prefer to share my information-good or bad, accepted or not, to invite discussion and offer thoughts that lead to answers.

I made plenty of mistakes along the way because I believed the bull-I believed shoes were evil and barefoot cured all…I caused damage to my own horse because I did not provide him with shoes when he CLEARLY needed them.

If my noise causes one owner to think for herself, question what a trimmer is selling or gives her permission to shoe her horse when a BUA is whispering the evils of shoeing, well then my ‘agenda’ is complete.

As for the rest of the comments from the peanut gallery-whatever. Jumping do I have an ego about my intelligence? Damn straight. And I have a resume to back it up. Do you?

The difference in me and most is I don’t give too hoots if I asked a question that appears stupid. Have you ever considered for a moment the presentation IS intentional??

I don’t lose one ounce of sleep at night that katarine or anyone else thinks I am asking something off the charts. I have also not seen katarine offer anything valuable in this or most threads that even remotely relate to the topic. It seems her only agenda is to step on others to seemingly inflate her suffering self esteem.

Every single time i start one of these threads I walked away with the knowledge I have plus what everyone else has offered…even when it is offered with nastiness and hate. I come away with what I wanted.

So please bring on the games of quick wit and slams…as I said I will egg it on and play hard…but at the end of the day I don’t want the desire of a few peanuts to derail a topic that is valuable so far that it has no hope for return.

I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently.

[Tom_Stovall]

LMH in gray

I am looking for photos where the angle of the tubules of the heel has actually changed. The way the hoof grows out of the hairline

Counselor, nobody is going to send you solar heel shots taken of the same length of heel in which the horn tubules are growing medially (toward the frog) in the first, then laterally (away from the frog) in a later picture, simply because such pictures do not exist.

You may get lots of pictures of managed underrun heels in which all distortion of the hoof capsule has been removed by good trimming/shoeing and the hoof appears to be normal - but you won’t get a single one showing a reversal of tubule growth from medial to lateral because it doesn’t happen.

I’ve seen a great many underrun heels (tubules growing medially) effectively managed beyond recognition, but I’ve never seen anyone effect a permanent change in the direction of growth from medial to lateral - as soon as management ceases, the heel fibers reverts to medial growth.

[LMH]

Tom, thank you for your direct and concise answer.

If I recall, this is coming from years of being a farrier “by trade”? That worked under horses? And you were paid for these services?

I just want to make sure your ‘opinion’ is not immediately suspect because you are possibly a closet attorney by training.

[LMH]

Vickey, since you are so fond to travel down memory lane, continuing to rehash my leaping through methods…let’s do that together shall we? In full.

My first experience with barefoot was a Certified Hoof Groom (Martha Olivo trimmer)…I was promised that underrun heels would be CURED, concavity would appear from trimming and following a somewhat difficult transition my horses would be healed!

At this time I had no unsound horses-one had a terrible shoe job.

In a moment’s time I had an entire barn of painful horses-Julian was SO bad he swelled in all 4 legs and I had to bring water and food to him because he could not make the walk to the barn.

Next I found Cindy and Pete. Cindy never steered me wrong but I was seduced by the promises of BUA. I wanted to know more and do more-make it better.

During this time Cindy was also changing how she approached things.

Again I was promised that flares would go away and heels would change the direction of growth.

After one clinic where all horses has all flare removed in the name of reducing the pull like finger nails, Milo was so lame he repeatedly abscessed for months and months after. This incident was SO bad it inspired Cindy to write the article on her website titled “Going Nuts over flares?” To be clear-the clinic was not with Cindy-she had nothing to do with that trim.

The damage from that trim alone started a cycle of events that never turned around. I was encouraged to continue to remove this flare because flare. was. bad.

I was promised that beveling the wall to make the sole the primary weight bearing structure would reverse distal descent…well once again, failure to the point of descent and pressure that resulted in bone loss in the solar margin and loss of density in the entire coffin bone.

The horse was has crooked legs-he NEEDED that flare to support his limb!! But not one single method addressed that issue. NOT ONE. Perhaps NOW one does but not during the years I was going though this.

After THAT mess, I added insult to injury by getting tutored by an SHP-let’s not even GO there-again with promises of correcting heels-I simply had to lower them. Trim those bars, get mechanism!

After THAT I went to KC-again promises of tarmac walks and pads that would cure those damn heels.

Heels that if left where they were would cause damage according to every method.

Well THAT didn’t work so I went on to the Welz’s. Again the heels the heels.

In spite of it all, I will say again, KC’s trim is the safest and least offensive trim taught. Horses can do well IF they can be bare with his trim.

Yes there was more than the heels-but let’s keep it simple and focus on that one element.

I could lower them and ‘bring them back’ but often soring the horse in the process…and as Mr Stovall pointed out-they were ‘managed’ to look very nice…but the heels were not corrected.

Let me guess, I did it wrong-every time under every method.

I have photos and photos that show ‘well trimmed feet.’ During most of this I had sound horses in varying degrees-it was not always lame and go-USUALLY the soundness happened when I gave up on a method and let them grow as they pleased-but those photos are criticized because they don’t show textbook hooves.

One horse suffered through all of this-years and YEARS of believing in ‘methods’-the poor horse just needed shoes.

Finally I started looking beyond methods. I looked for counsel form other trimmers that had followed a similar path to mine with the same results.

Fast forward, years of photos documenting every method I tried, years of frustration that I was somehow doing it wrong-then in a moment a light bulb went on…could it be unnderrun heels could not be corrected? Only managed?

Could it be DNA dictated the hoof and my job was to manage what nature had given my horse?

Could it be that some horses need shoes and some don’t?

Certainly not because EVERY SINGLE METHOD promised correction and cure.

But no matter WHAT I did or did not do, the horses with forward growing heels grew forward if not carefully managed, those with taller heels grew tall.

Finally I found Tim Ware’s website-he respected what nature gave the horse-he suggested doing nothing for 6 months to see what happened.

That was almost 18 months ago and since doing that AND reducing mineral intake (not NO minerals, just not supplementing additional man made minerals), I have a farm of virtually self maintaining horses. Not 100% but some go months and months.

My horses are currently barefoot-yes I learned about Epona’s during this and would them in a second of one horse seemed tender.

So I start thinking-wow what if others are going through this? What if others are still fighting nature and hurting horses in the process?

So I asked…yes with bait…but I asked.

And now pages later, accusations flying, I get a response from a farrier with more years experience than this entire forum combined CONFIRMS my thoughts…wow. What else is there to say.

And if anyone disagrees with Mr Stovall and cares to argue with him, I can assure you I am just the warm-up act. I learned that lesson personally years ago.

I guess a pig in mud can have a good idea now and then.

[LMH]

Since I am in a sharing kinda mood I thought I would add some more for the peanut gallery about changing methods.

One-some horses do very well no matter WHAT method you use. My old horse Polo was one of these. He was only sore after that first Olivo trim-other than that he could endure about anything handed at him.

Same for Hugo. Though he really is best with his heels more forward and a longer shallower toe. I hate the looks of it, but he is sound. Method and textbook hooves tossed.

But poor Milo-no method applied in any manner helped him. He needed shoes.

SOME HORSES NEED SHOES.

Some parts of some methods are really fantastic tips and observations. For example, the Welzs talk about created heel platforms, KC calls it purchase…this is a great thing to observe in a horse to recognize the strength of the weight bearing part of his heels…just one example-but the article written by Yvonne explains it the best I have read.

Had I only studied or KC or Pete I would have totally missed that little gem. Do they teach it? Yes, but I learned it better from another methods way of explaining it.

How can you not see the benefit of having several sources of information?

Another few observations-when I was trimming and consulting with owners I would often come behind someone trimming in the name of Pete-God help him-if he only knew what was happening to hooves in his name, I have no doubt he would never publish another book.

I know any trimmer of any method can say the same about any other method-what does this prove? METHODS don’t have success-trimmers do.

You see, barefoot methods are no better than Parelli-you simply can not buy something from a box or attend a weekend clinic and be equipped or efficient.

It takes YEARS of mistakes and successes. YEARS of studying different approaches (ummm methods?) to learn different tips and tricks on what works and what does not in any given situation.

Many will certainly argue how barefoot works for THEIR horses-trimmers will argue how many clients they have with sound happy horses.

Well another little thing I learned-there are a heck of a lot of owners AND trimmers that can’t recognize a lame horse if it limped down the barn aisle.

The horse may not be obviously lame but so many trimmers have no idea what sort of body postures give an indication of body soreness…some DO but not nearly enough. It is a crime when owners beam at the thrill of barefoot and poor dobbin just needs more hoof or a boot or shoe.

Good grief some can’t even recognize an underrun heel. :lol:

I also can’t help but wonder if the reason some trimmers have only sound clients is the ones that needed shoes FOUND A FARRIER and had shoes put on. :eek:

Vickey you keep saying I am looking for the Holy Grail or Secret Decoder ring-that is simply nonsense. I am looking for MORE in depth information-not from methods but from real live horses-or precise photos if available. Hooves to observe and compare-often with background information-videos, anything to add to the data pool.

Again, as a professional trimmer how can you not see value in adding more to your education?

Maybe it is because in my field of education, continuing education is REQUIRED to keep my license active. The same is said for vets and real estate brokers and insurance agents.

SO why not hoof professionals? I think every trimmer SHOULD be required to attend clinics of ALL methods if ONLY to become aware of what is being done and why-at least you are equipped to have an intelligent discussion with a client on why they should or should not use a particular method.

I also think any hoofcare provider should be REQUIRED to attend continuing education on nutrition and body work-and while you are at it, knowing how to ride a horse wouldn’t hurt-understanding the impact of rider and training styles certainly will influence what happens when you are under the horse.

At least be open to consult with those professionals in that area.

As I write this there are hundreds of forums with hundreds of owners all giddy inside with the great hope that some method will cure her horse from every evil known to the equine community.

Well now when they google they can have a different perspective and MAYBE just MAYBE horses like Milo will be a horrible story not a present reality.

Anyway, I am glad you asked Vickey, what my agenda was. Now you know.

Knowledge is power baby.

[grayarabpony]

The problem with this thread is underrun heels do not just depend on how the tubules grow from the hairline!! Most of the distortion in fact occurs further down in the hoof, which is why trimming can often improve or correct the condition.

Heels that were once underrun are not always underrun. I think the photos demonstrate that conclusively. Or at least most of us can see it.

A tendency, which can range from strong to not so strong, is not the same thing as a condition.

This whole argument is just silly. What do you think you’re doing, promoting some genius notion that some horses tend to grow tall contracted heels while others grow heels that run under if not managed properly?

I think most of us have got that already.