8k for import? Not sure where you are getting your numbers? It is much cheaper to buy in UK or Ireland, but import costs go up. I just priced out import two weeks ago from the UK to LAX- 21k for mares and 14 for geldings from door to door. Also add another 500 to bind for insurance and be aware that vetting in the UK is incredibly expensive. I think a year ago the total was $2600 with a full set of X-rays. If you want to import a gelding for 30-35 American, plan on under 15,000 pounds. With that said, check out Weston Warmbloods / Anna Beck. They are honest, have a bit of an idea about hunters, and can point you in the right direction.
I have purchased several horses from Europe for myself (as an amateur.) Mine get flown into NY and I only buy geldings but the import costs were under $7k. That included vet work, ground transportation from the horse’s home farm in Germany to the airport in Amsterdam, as well as from the quarantine facility in NY down to my place in GA. (FWIW, most recently did this in August, so that’s a recent quote.)
I would not plan to see 75 horses in a week although I think with the right connections and timing (great connected agent and maybe an auction or 2) you might be able to pull that off. But that is a very different arrangement from going over there as a lone amateur visiting several farms. If you are going to go there, you really must have good representation or you will get eaten alive.
I have not seen hunter types for $20k that were amateur friendly, and would plan on spending more like $35-40k plus import to get something nice. YMMV.
I agree. Although I understand because it is very expensive to have horses over here it seems like compared to everywhere else.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8412352]
Must be discouraging to US hunter breeders to read this…[/QUOTE]
I’m in Europe and agree you can find more quality horses at a more affordable price. I see several horses a month I think would be super Hunter prospects. That said, they are generally more like 40-60k (5 and 6yr olds) and above here in Holland and Belgium. Lower prices can be found but they are usually not the same quality or have not so clean vettings. Maybe try eastern Europe or as others have suggested the UK.
I have shopped with a trainer in Holland and Germany and by myself in Denmark. I thought the prices in Holland and Germany were on par with the US and I wasn’t even seeing the really nice ones so I bought 2 from Denmark. Price range was what you are looking for - $20-25k - but I sure didn’t see 75 horses. I rented a car, drove all over western Jutland and maybe tried 10 or so. I did my homework beforehand online and picked out 4 or 5 I definitely wanted to see (and therefore knew the asking price before getting on the plane) and invited people to show me others. One of my purchases was on my list, the other was not.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;8412876]
I’m in Europe and agree you can find more quality horses at a more affordable price. I see several horses a month I think would be super Hunter prospects. That said, they are generally more like 40-60k (5 and 6yr olds) and above here in Holland and Belgium. Lower prices can be found but they are usually not the same quality or have not so clean vettings. Maybe try eastern Europe or as others have suggested the UK.[/QUOTE]
European breeders and horse dealers have not fallen off of the turnip truck, they know what hunters sell for in North America.
So naturally they are going to price their horses accordingly. The days of getting a steal because a European horse wasn’t going to make it in the jumper ring are gone.
No these horses weren’t priced for the hunter market. This was their price as not top jumpers. They still would have been considerably marked up for the American hunter market and still been worth it. And funny you should comment on European breeders not falling of the turnip truck…not sure I was implying that, but I also get to see a lot of stupidly overpriced horses being offered for sale by backyard breeders who think they can get the same prices for their so-so stock as the top breeders…which is of course exactly what it’s like in the states. As expected no one is buying their horses either.
[QUOTE=TrueNorth;8412161]
I’ve been searching on ProEquest, BigEq, Facebook, DreamHorse. Nothing quite right so far. [/QUOTE]
Try the US Sporthorse Breeders Association. They’re updating their directory now, but it has lot’s of top hunter/jumper breeders as members with nice horses.
http://www.usshba.org/
It includes:
North Hill Farm (New York) http://northhillfarmny.com/
Tish Quirk (California) http://vxnhosting.com/tishquirk/
Hilltop Farm (Maryland) http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/
Rainbow Equus Meadow (California) http://rainbowequus.com/
Wild Turkey Farm (Oregon) http://wildturkeyfarm.com/
to name just a few…
Agree with the others:
Do not go alone. In fact, your instructor/horse trainer should contact an agent in europe to help both of you try out horses. Worth the expense to get the right horse.
Take your tack with you.
You will be buying a jumper who was not good enough to compete on the upper levels. But all is well since the warmbloods in europe are excellent for hunter competition over here in the states.
You will be paying as much or more than others have mentioned on this thread. Because you want a very good horse. Otherwise you would be looking at 10 or 15,000 dollar horses here in the states.
Is it worth the cost to buy in europe? Yes. No hunter classes in Germany, but the warmblood is bred to do both jumping and dressage so you will get a very good horse.
I cannot understate the importance of bringing your trainer. Bonus points if your trainer speaks German or Dutch. My experience is that the training and breeding are a little better in Germany than Holland. And oftentimes, the prices are a little lower. Particularly as you get away from the border with holland and move north and east.
For sure, there are many many operations that know exactly what a hunter is and price accordingly. that said, we had some luck this last trip with breeders who were less knowledgeable about hunters.
How did we find them? I actually spent hours on youtube searching the sires I was most interested in and the year born (so I was looking for a four or five year old so I would input stallion’s name, 2011 or 2010). If you know what you’re looking for, you can find some gems that are fairly priced. This is why I am personally thrilled to see more people putting breeding onto USEF records and then seeing it actually displayed on some of the livestreams. You can start to see what sires seem to stamp babies a certain way.
One thing EVERYONE knows is scope. The bonkers scopey horses are never going to be cheap, so if you see something that can clearly jump the moon but is cheap, it’s probably too good to be true.
One last point, my first trip was 4 or 5 days and yeah we saw 75 horses, sure…but I sat on four of them. And we started at 8 in the morning and ended at 10 at night bc there was still light! This last trip we were there 6 days, we saw 50 horses and I sat on four again. We really tried to be respectful of everyone’s time and immediately stop any horse that wasn’t a fit. People hate it when they jump a 1000 jumps and then you get on and jump a 1000 jumps and then say, you know what, I don’t think his trot is fancy enough.
Trying to set up your schedule for re-rides makes it considerably more expensive but my gosh does it help reduce your risk.
Oh wait one more more thing. Have your vet check videoed esp flexions and neuro testing. NO ONE tests for neuro unless you ask for it. Believe me from experience, you want that test for sure.
This is just an observation about the OP’s methods in shopping for horses here, vs overseas. Many people do it this way, and it’s not a complaint, it’s simply a look as to how we pursue something we want.
The OP said she checked various U.S. horse sale websites, with no luck.
She is now asking for names of dealers in Europe that she can contact.
This is like looking for a job in the classified ads vs contacting the company you want to work for, directly.
One is reactive, the other is proactive.
Which option do you think will have better success ?
Looking around HorseQuest http://www.horsequest.co.uk this evening and found this dealer who seems to have an understanding of the American hunter requirements. Kent is the nearest part of the UK to France and Holland via the tunnel http://www.horsequest.co.uk/yardpage.aspx?yardid=2526 but there are lots of horses which might meet your requirements…
I speak German! I can’t pick a horse for you, but I can negotiate like
No other! Lol
Good luck on your travels. I wish I could go over seas to pick a horse. I’d kill for opportunity. Sucks that US breeders can’t breed what people want
Wow Ready To Riot- that seems like a big leap to say US breeders can’t breed what people want. The US buyer sadly is a bigger part of the problem in general. With the nature of our industry in the US there is no affordable way to bring a young horse through the levels, that is what buyers seem to want because there are VERY FEW trainers in the US that have the schedule or ability to take on young horses and put the time and work in themselves.
There are many horses in the US that are bred comparably to EU horses, and the top bloodlines sell for more there then here. It is very short sighted to say that US breeders can’t breed what people want. Especially when many people go to EU before they even look here. I think your assumption that they are not available is part of the problem.
I have shopped in the EU for horses and there are some lovely horses available at very affordable prices because they are not going to be upper division jumpers but almost everyone there is pretty savvy to the American Hunter market and will price a fancy hunter accordingly. I can tell you tales of more horses that were not sound or not what they were represented as upon arrival, including some BNT’s that got duped just as badly as a random amateur… But there are plenty of shady people in the US too.
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8413502]
Sucks that US breeders can’t breed what people want[/QUOTE]
Are you aware that the warmblood registry inspectors who come to the US to look at foals agree that U.S. breeders are breeding as nice a horse as their counterparts in Europe ? It’s been that way for a few years now.
For me I find it disappointing that a well known hunter trainer in Kennett Square (PA) routinely goes to Europe to buy her clients’ horses, and when asked by European visitors to her barn about the pedigrees of her horses, she said she didn’t know anything about breeding and the background of her horses. Of course that was met with an awkward silence. She then said she prefers to shop for a certain bloodline in Europe. Unbeknownst to her, in that group of visitors to her barn that day, was the American owner of a stallion with those same lines. That hunter stallion stands here in the U.S.
U.S. breeders can’t make people buy their horses. But it would help if the some of the buyers were a bit more educated about what the U.S. offers.
Look to the trainers. Not nearly as profitable to buy a US bred whose age, pedigree and show record are readily available. Not to mention no free trip to Europe.
This thread has actually turned into an educational (and much needed) honest discussion about the American hunter market. I will weigh in on the side of the breeder and go out on a limb with the bold statement that American hunter breeders can’t breed what the market wants because the market is often ignorant.
The average buyer of a hunter foal is looking for markings or color or babies that can win on the line. The babies that win on the line do not have the pedigree necessary to be successful in the top of hunterland. This leaves breeders with the choice- produce what will sell but will not ultimately be successful, or produce what they can sell at 4 or 5 and take the significant risks and costs for raising young horses. Breeders of jumpers do not have the same problem. A top horse is a top horse and will often sell as a foal or down the road depending on desired goals of the breeder.
The average buyer of 3 or 4 year old cannot see true quality beneath the polish. The videos in Europe show a well-packaged product. That four year old may jump around with perfect changes for the 6ft plus European boy after having been perfectly set up for the video. On the other hand, the four year old in the US that may have a superior jump and significantly more potential will be shown trotting in and cantering out of a line, or not perfect changes, spooking at the end of the ring, throwing 3 good jumps and then one bad jump,ect. The first one “appears” more experienced and ready for an amateur, but wait until said horse gets to the US and its actual level of experience is more on par with the US four year old and no better quality.
Just regressing to the number of prospects one might see on a buying trip.
That very much depends on where you go and who you are working with. A well known agent can line up hundreds at what are basically sales yards or training establishments hosting and presenting locally available horses for others in front visiting buyers. Sort of a Showcase if you will.
Experienced agents can line up 8 or 10 of these in 3 or 4 countries in a week, particularly when they have several buyers over at the same time looking for multiple horses, like frequent buyer US trainers, lined up. They do tend to make their major buying trips around the same time of year.
In that case, you can, indeed, see hundreds in 5-7 days. Experiened eyes will weed them out quickly, only ask to see about half go under saddle, fewer go on to jump and only get on, maybe, 10%.
If buying directly from breeders, obviously it’s not like that. But groups of breeders can and do get together to present sales offerings to make it more convenient for visiting buyers to see enough horses to make the trip worthwhile.
Another reason to work with contacts/agents over there is shipping costs. Their contacts with the consolidators who handle ground transport on that end and make up the plane loads can mean you split the costs with a big group instead of waiting for individual van rides and pallet slots.
There’s more to it then you might think and they got just as many crooked sellers, vets willing to fudge things and plain old crummy horses backed by lies as we do over here. Hard to check them out when you are 2 or 3k miles away. I wouldn’t do it without a trusted agent over there, at least. Unless your own trainer has actually made successful buying trips over there? They may not know any more then you do.
I haven’t read all of the responses thoroughly, but another avenue to try might be to look in the Czech Republic. We have several imports from there in our barn, and while you definitely have to be way more savvy and “buyer beware” and work with a REALLY good agent, the horses are much cheaper there. Exclusive Horses is who the people in my barn used, if I recall correctly.
I have been shopping for months for the 16.3+ baby green-to-adult hunter and I feel the OP’s pain. Based on my recent experiences, the challenge in the US market is that without a $50k+ budget, you find one here, one there, two here, one there, and could spend a fortune and a lot of time travelling to try them. So I understand why a European trip would appeal to the OP, where you would likely find a larger concentration of prospects in her budget in a short period of time. And based on all my market research, US and Europe, and recent purchases by friends, prices simply are better in Europe, on average, than in the US.
Personally, I think trying to see 75-100 in a week is unrealistic and has the potential to dilute the quality of the selection, and that would waste valuable time – I would want to know that I was seeing a core set of quality “if I can ride it I would definitely buy it” prospects, and then add on from there, and I would definitely want to have time to go back for a second ride on the serious contenders. The unfortunate risk of committing your budget to a Europe trip is that you pretty much have to pick one from that trip if you’ve spent the travel money, and it is a lot of pressure. Ultimately, I concluded the travel costs and pressure to find one diluted the value to me, and that the real value lies in a) having a trainer or agent with GOOD contacts or b) being willing to import off of a video from a reputable source (ultimately too risky for me, but I was tempted by the Stal Burgers horses!).
To the OP, if you are coming east at the holidays, you might consider a quick trip to Ontario before people head south - exchange rate provides great value right now and importation costs are much lower.
