Losing Marbles around Other Horses

[the_eventing_RN]

Backstory:
I have had my OTTB for a little over a year now. He is 6, 17.2hh, and a bit immature for his age though with a lovely puppy-dog personality on the ground. Max has always been a bit opinionated and I’d describe him as quite sensitive under saddle but he has been coming along lovely. That being said, he has always been VERY preoccupied when other horses are in the ring. If we are walking he is okay but as soon as he is trotting/cantering and the OTHER horse is trotting/cantering then he pops a small buck or pulls some little hop/skip/jump and gets nervous. We have always been at small co-ops until we moved to a large eventing barn this fall.

Current Issue:
A few weeks ago, I was riding around in an open grass field neighboring the arenas going at a trot. Another rider brought her horse to the same area, and as we rounded a turn I saw that she was cantering her horse up towards and past us. Max totally lost it and scooted out from under me. In hindset I think he was quite startled by this (being an OTT), but I made him canter on until he settled and then allowed him to stop.

I disclocated my finger later that week, the weather turned cold, and Max got a kick injury, so the two of us have been out of our prime for about 3 weeks. That being said, I have a far worse mount. I got on recently and was given a total run for my money. There were four or five horses schooling around and a parked trailer in the grass lot, but he responded to EVERYTHING with anxious upwards/sideways/leaping/scooting energy. I’m talking a horse going into the canter, a pony walking towards us, a car door closing all sent him in a tizzy and I ended up having to circle tightly to gain control.

Since then I’ve been lunging before I ride, always wearing my vest, avoiding all sugary treats (has never been on grain). One of the days I did not do this, we were in a ring with three other horses and he could NOT keep it together (hopping, spinning, rearing). I’m having a hell of a time figuring out if it is a fear response or he is enjoying being naughty? Originally when he reacted I made him work harder but now I’m thinking I should focus on just standing or walking when horses pass. My trainer (a 5* rider) is new to me and when I asked for another lesson she recommended I get a “cowboy” for “troubled horses.” My heart totally sank with that…I just don’t think he is being given the benefit of the doubt but i just don’t know how to proceed. Any suggestions?

[skip99]

I’ll be following closely - my mare is the same. She’s also 6 but a homebred. We had a few instances while boarding beyond my control which I believe started the anxiety working around others (not a crash but other horses coming into her space unexpectedly). I have her at home now which means there is never anyone else in the ring, but I do trailer out 1-2x a week. A friend has a lesson program with quiet horses and we can now be reasonable while 1 other horse is walking and trotting around. When they are cantering and jumping is still a little hairy but slowly improving. I manage/time my rides so we are done when the other horse will start doing their canter or jump work and work on relaxing in the middle. The other thing I’ve noticed is that although I’m a very competent, experienced rider I’ve started getting tight in my low back when there are other horses around. I now ride in a very conservative two point so she can’t feel me get tight, that has helped as well. We ended our last ride with some good yawns standing & walking on the buckle while a schoolie cantered poles.

Interestingly I have taken her on a few hunter paces where after 10 minutes of being a little special she realizes the horses are all moving the same direction and settles in. I’ve also noticed if something is bothering her (ie body soreness) her reactions are much worse.

Will be interested to hear any ideas others have. I’ve made progress but it feels like it’s just been so slow. Luckily I don’t have any showing aspirations at the moment haha

[the_eventing_RN]

Problems in Passing Other Horses in the Arena – The Horse

Just found this article

[OverandOnward]

Also look for books, videos, etc. by Tik Maynard. He has had a lot of insight to offer on awkward horse behavior.

[endlessclimb]

This might sound bad or mean on my part, but I would want this horse TIRED. He sounds like he has energy to burn, and it may (or may not) be contributing to the problem.

A really… really… really… long trail ride for 3 or 4 days in a row, then see what you’ve got. Not an amped up trail ride, just a few hours long at mostly a brisk walk with some trot sets in there.

If the behavior is still there, then start dealing with it. If not, great. Even if it’s still there, he will be in a better mind set to actually listen when he doesn’t have so much gas in the tank.

[wsmoak]

Whereabouts in the country are you? The “cowboy” approach may not be a bad one. I am not talking about the round pen them to death type. I am talking about really good groundwork.

Brent Graef in TX, Amy Skinner in NC, Ed Dabney in GA, there are others.

[cilla1]

Have you ever tried lunging Max in the ring while other horses are around? I have an Appendix gelding exactly with the same caracter as yours. He really improved his behaviour with tons of ground work. In my experience they get easily bored and when they’re bored they find a way to make some fuss, so try to keep him interested in what you are doing. Anyway I agree with your idea of trying to keep him calm around other horses more than making him work harder. And give him time, mine began to behave as an adult horse around 10 yo.

[luvmyhackney]

Have you ever tried playing leap frog with a trusted horse where you take turns passing at the walk, then trot, and then canter? Works great on a trail as well.

I’ve become a huge fan of Warwick Schillings principle of too many rabbits and this kinda fits this. Might be worth looking at some of his YouTube videos of relaxation under saddle, etc

[sophie]

I had a very nice young Ottb mare some years ago who lost it when a horse came at speed (trot or canter) toward us. She would spin and act all panicky. I am convinced she had an accident on the track. She progressively got better, with more exposure.

My current one was a handful too when she was green, the littlest thing got her excited. Horses cantering, jumping, loud noises, etc. She’d spook at herself when we were going toward the mirrors in the indoor, hahaha! After she realized what they were, she’d slow down as we passed to look at herself. She is “special”, that one.

All my Ottbs have been “energizer bunnies”, they will NOT get tired, if anything, they get more frazzled. It’s a mental thing, for the most part. After a clean vet bill (to check eye sight, etc), ground work and lunging are my first go-to tools, then I look at their turnout time (the more the better, 24/7 outside the best), then feed - mine have been doing best on Triple Crown Senior, (yes even when young) and free choice hay. Lastly, I try an ulcer supplement, to see if that makes a difference.

And then, just patience, consistent work and consistent attitude when handling their “moments” - never getting annoyed or mad, just redirecting and praising when they are good.

Good luck with your big guy!

[B-burg_Dressage]

What’s his turnout like? It can seriously make such a big difference with these younger OTTBs.

I moved barns with mine once. Went from large pasture turnout with friends (12 in/12 out) to individual turnout in a small lot. Dude lost his ever loving marbles mostly due to so much excess energy. You could just tell he was crawling with energy. I was riding him 5-6 days/week and that still wasn’t enough. Night and day difference in the horse I had.

[endlessclimb]

I agree that they’re energizer bunnies, but there is a difference between a 30 minute ring ride and a 3-4 hour low key trail ride. He will come back with less edge, because the work did not frazzle him.

[Djones]

Not a “cowboy cowboy” but a good minded barrel horse trainer might be an option you’d consider. Hot hot hot horses who have to learn to navigate crowded warm ups and listen to you and relax. Ymmv, but you aren’t going to solve this yourself, he’s got you anxious (reasonable!! ) so I think outside help is warranted.

[hybriseris]

My lease mare is OTTB and is 17 and still has her days where she’s reactive to other horses, especially ones that are cantering or doing polework/jumping. I found her at a barn where almost no one was riding except for me, and have since moved her to a barn with a very active lesson program and many owners riding at all times of the day. She is thriving but the change in energy and activity definitely blew her mind for a few weeks.

My first suggestion would be to check for or treat for ulcers. There was definitely a component there for this mare, and I actually give her a few Outlast treats before a ride where I know the arena will be busy and it seems to help any nervous-belly tendencies.

I would definitely second the groundwork suggestion already mentioned, especially if you can get permission to stand and work with him during a jump lesson (obviously out of the way). That way you can feel confident not being ON him. I thought of it as “exposure therapy” for my mare and it really seemed to help. If you don’t feel confident in your own groundwork, a good cowboy type to work with and learn the basics is a great start!

When I’m riding and she’s having a more anxious day, I am constantly thinking about giving her a job to do. It keeps my mind off thinking about HER thinking about the activity around her, and prevents her from worrying so much. Definitely keep it simple so you don’t head the other direction and make him anxious trying to do complicated things, but simple things like change of direction, figure 8’s, serpentines, transitions, circling, etc. On the days my mare’s brain is in squirrel town and she’s concerned about where that person over there is going with their gelding, having to think about what I’m asking next seems to center her. I also pop off her back in to two point until I’m feeling mentally and physically relaxed too so she’s not picking up on any inadvertent cues I might be giving.

[ndirish07]

My horse used to not like warmup and was hot about other horses coming around him (scooting and generally losing his mind temporarily). He was new to me at the time and 6 years old and I don’t think he sensed confidence in us yet and thought he had to save himself. I also generally hate the warmup because people are everywhere and not calling where they’re going. What I did was have a plan— I put him in a defined space and worked the same figure 8 and putting him to work. People knew where I was going and generally stayed out the way and my horse knew where he was going and got confidence from that. It took a little while to go over that, but flash forward and I just did a show and am able to put him anywhere in warmup and go between horses on both sides of him and he doesn’t react at all. I also changed my mindset to that of “I paid as much as everyone else and have every right to be in this warmup too” and ride my plan and what I want to do and call out inside and outside when passing. This horse in general just needs to go to work whenever his pretty little brain starts getting distracted so he doesn’t get spooky. When he’s working and forward, no issues at all. Behind the leg and ambling around, there might be some yeet yeets in there.

[beowulf]

TBs breeze and train alongside other horses at the track. They are ponied off of horses at the races. Horses pass them warming up on the track - they will jog in a group going “the wrong way” and pass other horses. If it raced, it passed other horses.

Do people think the riders teleport a race horse from its stall to the starting gate…?

In my experience this is a fear response because of pain or anxiety. This is not an uncommon thing to encounter with a horse who has chronic body soreness and is reactive. Being defensive around other horses while being ridden is a symptom of pain somewhere in the horse. They feel trapped because they are being ridden and not in full control, lack their own total autonomy, and become reactive.

A really good exercise to get over this (once you have treated any physical issues) is to play warm-up leapfrog - it requires a willing participant. Both of you start in the same direction, trotting laps one behind another. Do this for a few revolutions of the ring. Have rider one pass you to the inside, and return to the rail. After a few strides, you pass them. Rinse, repeat for 10 minutes. Remember it is going to suck before it gets better. The first few laps might be too fast… but usually after a couple revolutions the horse understands and relaxes.

After, walk them out for 5 minutes with one horse on the inside track and one on the outside, passing each other going opposite directions on the same circle.

[Heinz_57]

@the_eventing_RN

I’m having a hell of a time figuring out if it is a fear response or he is enjoying being naughty? Originally when he reacted I made him work harder but now I’m thinking I should focus on just standing or walking when horses pass. My trainer (a 5* rider) is new to me and when I asked for another lesson she recommended I get a “cowboy” for “troubled horses.”

He is overloaded. Start from the ground, do ground work. Warwick Schiller, Tristan Tucker both have good strategies for helping your horse to learn self control and overcome anxiety, starting on the ground and carrying that over to under saddle and then to different environments.

Also going to reiterate what has been said about turnout. Give him as much as possible, in as large of an area as you can. If that’s not possible where you are, move him where it is.

I would not send this horse to a “cowboy for troubled horses”, I don’t think that’s fair.

[MadTrotter]

Mine was exactly like this. I couldn’t even lead him to the arena in a straight line. You could find him by following the trail of runny nervous shite. I flew off him one time mounting because my toe just grazed his side. I almost came off again when he spooked because I…coughed on his back. He was THAT tense and sensitive. And yes, especially when other horses went by.

I tried everything from the “wet saddle pad” approach to the natural horsemanship stuff and at the end of the day…he just mellowed out with age and experience. I’d say it took a good year in the new environment. And when I moved him again, he got better and better. now he’s extremely trainable and even a decent egg on the trails.

If I had any specific advice…this is NOT a candidate for a “cowboy” approach. Training might help if it’s someone exceptionally calm and gives him a sense of leadership and confidence. Some cowboys will also under-feed and tie them for hours on end. I’ve had exactly ONE horse ever that I sent out to a cowboy and she was dangerous and aggressive, NOT nervous.

I think a lot of just leading him around and being patient will go a long way. Make sure he has a big turnout, and a great bossy lead mare can help them learn. Hope you stick with him!

[Djones]

To be abundantly clear, no one is suggesting that anyone “cowboy” this horse in the manner you are describing. No one.

[MadTrotter]

Sorry if it scandalizes you, but in my area, when someone suggests “cowboy for troubled horses”, that’s precisely what’s insinuated.

[Djones]

Lol ok boss. Have a good evening