Low Down and Round is *not* rollkur

[Velvet]

How can this keep getting more names? Weren’t hyperflexion and rollkur enough? Now let’s all confuse it with LDR-Low Deep Round.

Okay, so “deep” and “long and low” where around LONG before hyperflexion/rollkur/LDR came into being. Long and low and deep are correct stretching aids to working horses under saddle as they do NOT put the horse in unnatural positions.

Talk about mudding the waters even more. We really need to just find ONE common name when talking about things and stop making up new names to either confuse people or make it sound less disgusting. (I guess it’s all about the spin…)

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4660940]
—“The whole discussion is just odd.”’’’

Exactly.

A few anti-RK are all bent out of shape against anyone that is not as ferociously anti-RK as they are.
They don’t seem to give anyone any credit, all that are not anti-RK are bundled as one: Horse abusers.

-They fight those that don’t yet know enough to say.
-Those that think each trainer should decide how to train.
-Those that don’t only don’t care, but don’t think anyone should tell others how to train, by anyone, unless something was clearly abuse.
-Those that think RK is ok, not abusive, because RK, well, it is not harmful or abusive, look how many horses for years now have been using it and not one has toppled over yet, they can prove that.

All those people are being called “horse abusers”, because they are not anti-RK.

Odd, indeed.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, you know you are the only one i keep reading that talks about abuse. you say it in most of your posts… if you don’t want the word abuse brought in, stop saying it

[ThreeFigs]

Then you haven’t been reading DA’s posts.

[claire]

This.

@Velvet;4661371

How can this keep getting more names? Weren’t hyperflexion and rollkur enough? Now let’s all confuse it with LDR-Low Deep Round.

Okay, so “deep” and “long and low” where around LONG before hyperflexion/rollkur/LDR came into being. Long and low and deep are correct stretching aids to working horses under saddle as they do NOT put the horse in unnatural positions.

Talk about mudding the waters even more. We really need to just find ONE common name when talking about things and stop making up new names to either confuse people or make it sound less disgusting. (I guess it’s all about the spin…)

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4661419]
Then you haven’t been reading DA’s posts.[/QUOTE]
Don’t lie. I never used word “abuse”

There are actually plenty of anti-RK posters who never even used the “abuse” or “cruel” wording. I know that I never used it.

Honestly, to me it seems that anti-RK posters are more calm and balanced and pro-RK posters are trying really hard to get a raise out of us by pocking sticks at us with lies and name calling.

Let’s just stay on the subject. And at least try to be civil and allow expression of views that are different from yours with out derogatory labeling?

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Velvet;4661371]
How can this keep getting more names? Weren’t hyperflexion and rollkur enough? Now let’s all confuse it with LDR-Low Deep Round.

Okay, so “deep” and “long and low” where around LONG before hyperflexion/rollkur/LDR came into being. Long and low and deep are correct stretching aids to working horses under saddle as they do NOT put the horse in unnatural positions.

Talk about mudding the waters even more. We really need to just find ONE common name when talking about things and stop making up new names to either confuse people or make it sound less disgusting. (I guess it’s all about the spin…)[/QUOTE]
Ditto and sadly, it’s the point to confuse people what is called what so the conversation will be even more difficult.

If it talks like a duck, if it walks like a duck = it’s a duck.

[mbm]

here is the forum of the person who is the person behind the LDR facebook page…

to me LDR = rollkur… just take a look.

http://scandinaviandressage.forumpro.fr/techniques-de-dressage-f6/la-magie-de-la-martingale-double-paire-de-renes-t39.htm

[naturalequus]

Haha oops, had to read it a few times - little rusty with my french and the dressage lingo is new to me in french (though it is essentially direct translation, really). Google translater makes the entire page near impossible to read - def recommend reading it in its orginal formaat, haha.

Wow though, not quite sure what to say about that. It seems to definitely be creating a false, and tense, frame. They commend the ears in one photo, yet the ears are not dropped, the tail is swishing, and the eyes look far from relaxed - the entire horse (the photo from 4 months ago) seems to denote tension, at least to my eye. That last photo is far from “passage-y”. The horse is croup-high, strung out, hand-dominated, tense as heck, and clearly fighting his rider. Yet the frame is supposed to represent success? JMO but this is not what dressage is about.

ETA: it really rubs me the wrong way that this ‘technique’ of teaching the Rolkur position (incorrectly and improper use thereof) is toted as ‘magic’. Nothing is ‘magic’ - it’s just a shortcut, and an innefective one at that. Maybe if the hands were softer I could understand it better, but the horse seems to simply be ‘forced’ into the frame.

[egontoast]

Don’t lie. I never used word “abuse”

There are actually plenty of anti-RK posters who never even used the “abuse” or “cruel” wording. I know that I never used it.

I think you are splitting hairs there .

Think carefully. Are you saying you think it is not "abuse’ then?

If you don’t think it’s abuse, why do you want it banned from the warm ups? I’m sure if any one had time to go through all your posts they would find plenty of posts where you claim it is abusive regardless of what exact words you use for that sentiment.

Anyone reading your many many many posts on this issue gets the very clear message that you think it is abuse.

If that is wrong and you actually don’t think it is abuse at all, then maybe you should clarify your views rather than call people who have misunderstood your position liars.

( PS, guess I’d better say not using the word “liar” but amounts to same thing by saying “Don’t lie”).

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4660940]
—“The whole discussion is just odd.”’’’

Exactly.

A few anti-RK are all bent out of shape against anyone that is not as ferociously anti-RK as they are.
They don’t seem to give anyone any credit, all that are not anti-RK are bundled as one: Horse abusers.

-They fight those that don’t yet know enough to say.
-Those that think each trainer should decide how to train.
-Those that don’t only don’t care, but don’t think anyone should tell others how to train, by anyone, unless something was clearly abuse.
-Those that think RK is ok, not abusive, because RK, well, it is not harmful or abusive, look how many horses for years now have been using it and not one has toppled over yet, they can prove that.

All those people are being called “horse abusers”, because they are not anti-RK.

Odd, indeed.[/QUOTE]

Where and by whom?

[egontoast]

Good grief. Bats, if you have been reading all these threads including all the stuff that has been deleted by the moderators you would not have to ask that question.

And no, I doubt anyone has the desire or the time to wade back through it all to answer your question. Does that mean it’s not true. No.

[MistyBlue]

Don’t lie. I never used word “abuse”

There are actually plenty of anti-RK posters who never even used the “abuse” or “cruel” wording. I know that I never used it.

Honestly, to me it seems that anti-RK posters are more calm and balanced and pro-RK posters are trying really hard to get a raise out of us by pocking sticks at us with lies and name calling.

Let’s just stay on the subject. And at least try to be civil and allow expression of views that are different from yours with out derogatory labeling?

The idea of “calming myself” with Martini, when I see abusive or harsh riding never accured to me.

[Dressage_Art]

The idea of “calming myself” with Martini, when I see abusive or harsh riding never accured to me.

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4661765]
[/QUOTE]

And? Where do I call extreme hyperflexion “abuse” again?

Listen, “abuse” is clearly outlined in the rules. If extreme hyperflexion was considered to be “abuse” it would off been called upon by the show officials. I know the rule book definition of abuse. That is the reason why I never called extreme hyperflexion an abuse.

For me extreme hyperflexion is not-horse-friendly training method and too controversial to be shown at the public shows. Extreme hyperflexion does not portray the “happy-athlete” as per rules of FEI itself. Extreme hyperflexion takes the will of the horse out, that strips the horse of his feedback and being a partner in dressage that reduced a horse to be just a trained animal, not an Olympic athlete!

I do not want the extreme hyperflexion be forced on me during the show warm up at the public shows that I paid membership $ to show at. I do not want to warm up next tot him extreme hyperflexion. I pay several hundreds of dollars per year to be a part of those show organizations and I pay several thousands dollars per year to show my horse. I want to continue to enjoy my show experience and not be forced to ride next to the controversial, not-horse-friendly extreme hyperflexion that takes the will of the horse out, that strips the horse of his feedback and being a partner in dressage that reduced a horse to be just a trained animal, not an athlete!

This is my position on extreme hyperflexion, I’ll be glad to clarify any questions about that subject and my position about it.

(But please spare me the usual pro-rollkur arguments such as: you never ride, you never touched any horses, you are a keyboard jockey, you are stupid, you are bitter, and etc, etc… please keep to the subject)

[MistyBlue]

Apologies…the missing part of the quoted post was:

And how many horses need to end up with blue tongues hanging out of the side of their mouths during the legal show warm-ups BEFORE you will stop having fun about rollkur? 100? Will protests against rollkur still be entertaining for you?
(link to youtube video)
The idea of “calming myself” with Martini, when I see abusive or harsh riding never accured to me.

It was a comment about hyperflexion/LDR/BTV/RK being abusive. At least the way it reads above points to that.

FWIW…I personally doubt there are many “happy athlete” horses in any sport/discipline. I have never seen a horse on it’s own sans rider doing any dressage, western pleasure, barrel racing, hunter courses, etc. If what they did made them happy, they wouldn’t need a rider and trainer to make them do it now, would they? :winkgrin:

Horses either tolerate it or not…because we tell them to do it. They do it out of either following directions or a willingness to please. But to please themselves…they’d choose that we all go jump off a cliff and disappear until feeding time.

I have no idea why I’m being asked to spare you any comments or arguments. I have no dog in this fight…and haven’t commented on any thread at all. Was just reading along, mostly because many of the regulars in the dressage forum amuse me with their absolutes and preaching and knowing better than everyone else and statements that nobody can ride dressage correctly…even Olympic level riders. Since I’d been reading along for amusement purposes, I had seen the previous post made calling this training abuse and brought it up.

[CatOnLap]

quite hilarious MistyBlue. Some folks should quit before they tie themselves up in their own words.

“Don’t Lie!”

[egontoast]

And? Where do I call extreme hyperflexion “abuse” again?

Well …er… thank you for clarifying that you don’t believe that “extreme hyperflexion” is “abuse”.

I think it is fair to say that was not at all evident from your earlier posts so it’s probably not really fair to call people liars just because they misunderstood your position.

Frankly, I still don’t understand your position. You want it banned , you won’t ride in the same warmup with people using it but you don’t think it is “abuse”.

[nhwr]

this is just too silly

the horse’s will? Really?

Then how do you justify riding at all? The majority of horses would prefer to be left in the pasture. They probably don’t like it when the vet or shoer show up either. Do more classically ridden horses, hook up the trailer and jump in to head off to a show?

To honestly participate in this discussion, you need to become comfortable with the idea that by owning horses and riding them, we are subordinating the horse’s will.

I love my horses and take good care of them. But I don’t spend too much time considering their “will”. Otherwise, I’d be working for carrots.

Sorry, but that is their role :lol:

[EqTrainer]

@nhwr;4663159

the horse’s will? Really?

Then how do you justify riding at all? The majority of horses would prefer to be left in the pasture. They probably don’t like it when the vet or shoer show up either. Do more classically ridden horses, hook up the trailer and jump in to head off to a show?

To honestly participate in this discussion, you need to become comfortable with the idea that by owning horses and riding them, we are subordinating the horse’s will.

I love my horses and take good care of them. But I don’t spend too much time considering their “will”. Otherwise, I’d be working for carrots.

Sorry, but that is their role :lol:

And the reason why submission is considered to be a four lettered word by many people… who claim to be doing dressage :lol:

I agree, it’s all our idea. The finest training accomplishment is to teach them how to enjoy it, not piaffing.

[egontoast]

yes and if you drink milk, eat cheese or wear leather boots or wool, I’m guessing the cows and sheep didn’t sign up for that either.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4662849]
FWIW…I personally doubt there are many “happy athlete” horses in any sport/discipline. I have never seen a horse on it’s own sans rider doing any dressage, western pleasure, barrel racing, hunter courses, etc. If what they did made them happy, they wouldn’t need a rider and trainer to make them do it now, would they? :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
You have never seen a horse piaffe, passage, or do an extended trot in pasture? Jump a course on its own, for fun? Cut cattle or spin because it felt like it? Too bad, it’s pretty entertaining to watch :winkgrin:

I think many of the horses out there don’t enjoy their job, but not necessarily because of the job itself. Furthermore, that is not the only, or even ultimate, scenario: horses can very much love jumping, working cattle, performing dressage, etc. They can also simply take enjoyment in working in partnership with a rider. I would hope that a horse working with a rider is happy doing what it does and working with its rider!!

Case in point: my cowhorse actively seeks out cattle - he loves even just being in their presence and gets a good kick out of keeping them in line :winkgrin: One of my WB’s, when warming up in the grass jump ring, would continuously ask “this jump?”, “this jump?”, “well, what about this one?”, “please??!”. Personally, that’s how it should be - I do not agree that a horse should be forced into a sport it clearly dislikes, though some exceptions can be made provided the horse is happy in general, working with its rider.

The rider is not there to ‘make’ the horse, they are there to guide the horse into how to do their job efficiently, or how to develop into a balanced athlete. Horses are neither there to ‘tolerate’ it. Horses should be allowed a say in what they do; they perform a heck of a lot better when they enjoy the activity at hand.

ETA: I too think that a rider’s greatest accomplishment is to create a horse who not only greatly enjoys working with their rider u/s (or otherwise), but who also enjoys its job. Horses, as independant beings, have a will of their own that should be considered. Why should they do as we say - because we pay the bills? I think that’s a little self-righteous, but that is JMO. It is possible to consider the horse’s will and braid together their wants and needs with your own to create a successful competitive athlete.