Low Down and Round is *not* rollkur

[MistyBlue]

You have never seen a horse piaffe, passage, or do an extended trot in pasture? Jump a course on its own, for fun? Cut cattle or spin because it felt like it? Too bad, it’s pretty entertaining to watch

Oh of course I’ve seen horses do parodies of certain disciplines on their own. Even down to jumping out of the paddock. :lol:
Piaffe and passage…well they can do something similar out of fun or even during a spook. But add the dressage rider or trainer…and the horse isn’t doing that because it enjoys it. Because the horse doing it on it’s own isn’t worrying about tempo or amount of collection or whether or not it’s face is on the vertical. Add the rider and the natural movement becomes bastardized into something totally unnatural through micromanaging, over analyzing and nitpicking it to pieces. Doesn’t sound like much fun, does it? :winkgrin:
Jump a course on it’s own? Nope, never seen that. And I’ve turned out past jumpers in a ring with a course set up…horses who really were gung ho about jumping under tack…and not a single one ever jumped the course on it’s own. It might get a case of the buck/farts and have one get in the way and boing over that…but not more than one.
Cow sense…well that’s in a league of it’s own and when in competition it’s not changed or bastardized much.

I don’t like to anthropomorphize horses…and definitely not to the extent that I feel better about making them work a job they’d prefer to not do. I fully understand if left to their own choices…maybe one out of every million horses would choose to be nit picked into the riders’ ideal of what is considered ribbon worthy in a show ring. I also understand that it’s my dime and my time…and for a few hours per week the horse will do it’s job (as long as it’s not vehemently protesting that job) for me…because that’s why I have the horse. :yes:
But love it’s job or being a happy athlete? Nah, not buying that for a minute. Not miserable, but certainly not giddy about it either, LOL!

[ThreeFigs]

Funny, DA. When I’m warming up at a show, I am not paying any attention to the other riders in the warm-up, beyond watching where they are going and where I can go to stay out of their way. I’m not watching HOW they ride, but WHERE they ride. They could be piaffing and applying lipstick at the same time for all I know.

They can warm-up their horses any way they like. It does not affect me in the slightest. I have my own tasks at hand, as do they. Yes, often my coach will remark later, “Did you see so and so do such and such?”

Invariably, I answer no, because I was riding my own horse at the time.

Really, I understand the 'artistic" temperament, being one myself. Taking offense at the way other people ride at shows is a bit much, unless they are physically endangering others. After all, these “offensive” troglodytes have paid good money to be there, too. What else goes on at a show that sends you up a wall? Stick to your own knitting. You’ll be happier for it.

You overstate your case and come off sounding like a diva. Not name-calling, just callin’ 'em like I see 'em.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4663325]
But add the dressage rider or trainer…and the horse isn’t doing that because it enjoys it. Because the horse doing it on it’s own isn’t worrying about tempo or amount of collection or whether or not it’s face is on the vertical. Add the rider and the natural movement becomes bastardized into something totally unnatural through micromanaging, over analyzing and nitpicking it to pieces. Doesn’t sound like much fun, does it? :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Nope, not done that way it sure as heck doesn’t sound like fun. However riders do not have to do it that way

I don’t like to anthropomorphize horses

Neither do I, however they do possess their own wants and needs. They may certainly differ from our own, but there certainly is room for the two without collision.

I also understand that it’s my dime and my time…and for a few hours per week the horse will do it’s job (as long as it’s not vehemently protesting that job) for me…because that’s why I have the horse. :yes:
But love it’s job or being a happy athlete? Nah, not buying that for a minute. Not miserable, but certainly not giddy about it either, LOL!

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then. It’s too bad and personally I find it sad riders do not believe that there is room for the will of both rider and horse, or that the horse can enjoy the intimate relationship between man and horse (they are social creatures, after all) :no: The only way to earn respect is to also give it.

[nhwr]

Fairy tales

And the reason why submission is considered to be a four lettered word by many people… who claim to be doing dressage :lol:
Submission on the part of the horse necessarily requires dominance on the part of the rider. If a horse’s will were the paramount concern, submission couldn’t be an issue. No horse that didn’t “want” to do dressage would be doing it.

How would we effectively implement this? Maybe we could have horses fill out a survey before we start them under saddle? I am reasonably certain that no unstarted horse would ever volunteer to wear tack. It starts there. Resistance would not be penalized. After al the horse is just asserting its will. Shall I continue?

I am an animal lover. I don’t think our relationship is an equal partnership… although maybe it is for some. That would explain why this will never be resolved.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=nhwr;4663483]

I am an animal lover. I don’t think our relationship is an equal partnership… although maybe it is for some. That would explain why this will never be resolved.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Though if it is for some, it is not fairy tales then, no?

[siegi_b]

naturalequus - and you can continue to live in a fairy tale world…

[EqTrainer]

@nhwr;4663483

Submission on the part of the horse necessarily requires dominance on the part of the rider. If a horse’s will were the paramount concern, submission couldn’t be an issue. No horse that didn’t “want” to do dressage would be doing it.

How would we effectively implement this? Maybe we could have horses fill out a survey before we start them under saddle? I am reasonably certain that no unstarted horse would ever volunteer to wear tack. It starts there. Resistance would not be penalized. After al the horse is just asserting its will. Shall I continue?

I am an animal lover. I don’t think our relationship is an equal partnership… although maybe it is for some. That would explain why this will never be resolved.

I agree. And the ironic thing is that the “partnership” that people dream of is achieved by, amongst other things, being willing to take responsibility for that role in the relationship.

[MistyBlue]

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then. It’s too bad and personally I find it sad riders do not believe that there is room for the will of both rider and horse, or that the horse can enjoy the intimate relationship between man and horse (they are social creatures, after all) :no: The only way to earn respect is to also give it.

I don’t think we’re disagreeing. I don’t think it’s too bad that my horses get ridden…even though they would probably prefer to not be ridden. That was the reason for the “my dime, my time” comment. That if I’m doing all the work and upkeep and financial support…unfortunately for them that does not come free and they pay back in being ridden/working under saddle since they’re sound.

And I do stick to what each of my horses is specifically able and willing to do…instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and making them do only what I want to do. Hell, I bought a western saddle last year…because I have a ranch horse now. And he prefers to stay a working western type horse. Do I prefer that? No, it’s not been my cup of tea. I pefer jumpers. That horse doesn’t. That was figured out by being in tune with the individual horse…and respecting it.
The other guy…good all around boy who enjoys a bit of everything so far. We’ll pick and stick to whatever we find that fits us both the best.
My late mare was a dressage only horse…that was her preferred discipline and she wasn’t subtle about letting me know that. So together we did dressage…or pleasure riding. I personally am not a huge fan of dressage, but she was so that’s what we did.
Do/did any of them prefer a certain discipline? Yes. Do/did any of them prefer to just be a horse and not be ridden above everything else? Yep. :yes: So we compromised…we found out which was most preferred except for the option of them doing only sleep/eat/poop and nothing else. :winkgrin:
But I never fooled myself into believing that my horses stood around pining for the show ring or schooling courses/tests or what have you.
So yes…it actually is possible to love and respect your animals without trying to convince yourself that they love doing whatever it is their human wants them to do.
I dunno, maybe I’m just a tad too boringly realistic…the horse world is heavily populated with romanticists.
But please do not take an emotional high road and assume that because I don’t Black Beauty my opinion of my animals that I’m not respecting them…or that my horses and I don’t enjoy our time together…or that I don’t have any concept of animal behavior. (which is kinda my job even outside of horses;) )
As for the intimate relationship part…that’s illegal in my state. :winkgrin:

[BaroquePony]

While it is true that basically the horse is stuck in the ‘submissive’ role when it comes to its relationship with man, I think most of you are leaving out the reality that humans also are stuck in submissive roles in their relationships to other humans and their own governing systems.

The reason this would be relavant would be in understanding the role of submission to both horse and man. Relationship behavior between man and man and horse and man is not as far apart as we would like to believe.

This is a ‘relative’ interaction.

Some humans do rise to dominant positions. Some are benevolent and others malevolent. Some humans are looked up to because they are compassionate and empathetic, some are malevolent and go to jail for it, and some get away with being real jerks. Some horses rise to dominant positions and end up on the kill truck.

Some philosophies state that all human relationships are either dominant or submissive, but not both at the same time, or lacking in one or the other at the same time. I can’t say that I agree with that in some cases, but I see the basic tenant as somewhat realistic.

How that relates to horsemanship is relative. I have met quite a few horses that don’t fit into a program very well and I have met quite a few people that aren’t very realistic about what they put up with in order to just exist in whatever situation they are in.

I can’t say I’ve met a lot of “happy” people. Content, yes, some, but happy … not from what I have seen, not really, not when you really think about it and look at things realistically. I have met people who love life and are content with the life they have worked to develop, but most of them have a very balanced approach and although they are happy some of the time they also are often sad some of the time. Such is life.

I have met people who are always sad. And I have seen animals that are depressed or sullen, which to me is an ‘always sad’ way of being. Always sad is not a goood thing.

Always happy people are not very realisitc.

Balance and healthy would be a good thing. For both poeple and horses.

I have met content horses.

Happy horses to me is a very weird description. Not in the realm of this world. Content and healthy is the best that I would expect.

[naturalequus]

Very interesting take BaroquePony!!

[NOMIOMI1]

Hmm

So why is it so wrong for a horse to be so ENTIRELY submissive in its face head and neck but yet the amount of driving needed for an upper level animal takes (at times) extensive amount of leg with spurs and whip?

OK, now I know some horse make it all the way without it, BUT lets be real when we say that majority (upper level) go in spurs and with regular use of both that and a whip and submission to them is demanded correct?

But when the horse it tugged into an extremely rounded position this all of the sudden is TOO much submission?

Confused by that standard, if not double

[ThreeFigs]

I agree, BaroquePony. Well stated!

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4663649]
I don’t think we’re disagreeing. I don’t think it’s too bad that my horses get ridden…even though they would probably prefer to not be ridden. That was the reason for the “my dime, my time” comment. That if I’m doing all the work and upkeep and financial support…unfortunately for them that does not come free and they pay back in being ridden/working under saddle since they’re sound.

And I do stick to what each of my horses is specifically able and willing to do…instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and making them do only what I want to do. Hell, I bought a western saddle last year…because I have a ranch horse now. And he prefers to stay a working western type horse. Do I prefer that? No, it’s not been my cup of tea. I pefer jumpers. That horse doesn’t. That was figured out by being in tune with the individual horse…and respecting it.
The other guy…good all around boy who enjoys a bit of everything so far. We’ll pick and stick to whatever we find that fits us both the best.
My late mare was a dressage only horse…that was her preferred discipline and she wasn’t subtle about letting me know that. So together we did dressage…or pleasure riding. I personally am not a huge fan of dressage, but she was so that’s what we did.
Do/did any of them prefer a certain discipline? Yes. Do/did any of them prefer to just be a horse and not be ridden above everything else? Yep. :yes: So we compromised…we found out which was most preferred except for the option of them doing only sleep/eat/poop and nothing else. :winkgrin:
But I never fooled myself into believing that my horses stood around pining for the show ring or schooling courses/tests or what have you.
So yes…it actually is possible to love and respect your animals without trying to convince yourself that they love doing whatever it is their human wants them to do.
I dunno, maybe I’m just a tad too boringly realistic…the horse world is heavily populated with romanticists.
But please do not take an emotional high road and assume that because I don’t Black Beauty my opinion of my animals that I’m not respecting them…or that my horses and I don’t enjoy our time together…or that I don’t have any concept of animal behavior. (which is kinda my job even outside of horses;) )
As for the intimate relationship part…that’s illegal in my state. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I do not think it is too bad my horses are ridden either, I never stated that. I think we could be on similar grounds, just our views oppose a little.

I truly believe that horses can more than ‘not mind’ being ridden, however that is just me. It takes awhile to develop that in a horse (particularly some, depending upon the horse and its previous experiences), but that is what I see when I watch riders work with horses at liberty (u/s or on the ground) - the horse is choosing to be with them, including being ridden, because they enjoy it (else they would simply walk away when the bridle/halter were removed). It’s the feeling I get when I finally develop a horse to the point of working bridleless and at liberty - they want to be there, even if it means I am on their back.

I neither think that horses pine for the schooling ring or the show ring, however I do think they can enjoy using themselves athletically and that they can really enjoy their careers (as you also mentioned). I do not delude myself that they dream of being ridden :winkgrin: however I do believe that a horse can enjoy the interaction between horse and human just as much as lazing about in the field - hence the reason a horse will come galloping in when he hears your whistle, knowing full well he is going to be ridden.

I do not feel I am unrealistic in this at all. JMO though. I am certainly not taking the emotional high road, I just stated my opinion - when I hear ‘the horse only tolerates us’ or ‘we have to make the horse’, I guess it just feels wrong to me. I guess no amount of stating my opinion though will get such people to see that there can be other ways as well (you aside).

ETA: I do believe in submissive/dominant relationships - it is vital for a rider to be ‘dominant’, I guess I just look at it a little differently which is why I objected to some of the comments I did. I feel it is a place earned rather than made.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4663708]
While it is true that basically the horse is stuck in the ‘submissive’ role when it comes to its relationship with man, I think most of you are leaving out the reality that humans also are stuck in submissive roles in their relationships to other humans and their own governing systems.

The reason this would be relavant would be in understanding the role of submission to both horse and man. Relationship behavior between man and man and horse and man is not as far apart as we would like to believe.

This is a ‘relative’ interaction.

Some humans do rise to dominant positions. Some are benevolent and others malevolent. Some humans are looked up to because they are compassionate and empathetic, some are malevolent and go to jail for it, and some get away with being real jerks. Some horses rise to dominant positions and end up on the kill truck.

Some philosophies state that all human relationships are either dominant or submissive, but not both at the same time, or lacking in one or the other at the same time. I can’t say that I agree with that in some cases, but I see the basic tenant as somewhat realistic.

How that relates to horsemanship is relative. I have met quite a few horses that don’t fit into a program very well and I have met quite a few people that aren’t very realistic about what they put up with in order to just exist in whatever situation they are in.

I can’t say I’ve met a lot of “happy” people. Content, yes, some, but happy … not from what I have seen, not really, not when you really think about it and look at things realistically. I have met people who love life and are content with the life they have worked to develop, but most of them have a very balanced approach and although they are happy some of the time they also are often sad some of the time. Such is life.

I have met people who are always sad. And I have seen animals that are depressed or sullen, which to me is an ‘always sad’ way of being. Always sad is not a goood thing.

Always happy people are not very realisitc.

Balance and healthy would be a good thing. For both poeple and horses.

I have met content horses.

Happy horses to me is a very weird description. Not in the realm of this world. Content and healthy is the best that I would expect.[/QUOTE]

great post- I think the word that applies to both species is “satisfied”…:)!!

[ThreeFigs]

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say, NOM, but I disagree. (I think!) An upper level horse SHOULD go off a very light leg aid, spur or no spur. That’s good training and good riding. The minute you have conflicting aids (ie., hanging on the reins while attempting to break ribs with flailing legs), it’s just bad riding.

Gently packaging a horse between light legs and hands, creating an adjustable & supple partner sans “force” – I dare say there’s no one on this thread who’d disagree that’s a worthy goal.

[BaroquePony]

Gently packaging a horse between light legs and hands, creating an adjustable & supple partner sans “force” –

This is correct riding at any level.

The problem is that many riders do not spend enough time developing their riding skills before they attempt to train the horse.

[PixelGraphixDesign]

Slightly OT, but OMG, that Ravel is a beautiful horse. What a dream he looks like to ride. I used to take care of his dad, Contango, when I worked at Iron Spring Farm. That was one of the most wonderful stallions I have ever had the privilege to know. Ravel looks exactly like his dad and seems to have the same fantastic temperament. What shame they gelded him.

[ThreeFigs]

Very true, BP. It takes a long long time to get that skill set that makes a good rider AND trainer.

[PixelGraphixDesign]

[QUOTE=nhwr;4663483]

I am an animal lover. I don’t think our relationship is an equal partnership… although maybe it is for some. That would explain why this will never be resolved.[/QUOTE]

I know my relationship with my horse is not an equal partnership either. He’s definitely got me wrapped around his hoof and knows I will cater to his every whim.

[Bluey]

If you ever have a job independent of riding the horse a certain way, or playing with it at liberty, you may find one more dimension to who horses can be.

Go work cattle with a good cowhorse and you may find yet one more level at which you can work with your horse.
Not a little bit here and there, in a pen, but for hours, out in the pastures.

Once the horse realizes he is an active part of doing a job, he may not respond as finely to a request for a change of lead, but boy, will he stay with you and help you do the job at hand.
You can even get off, crawl thru the fence to get around some cattle you are holding by a gate, open the gate from the opposite side and the horse will carefully get everyone thru the gate for you and wait for you to get it closed, telling you to hurry, they are moving on and we need to go keep them from straying.
Or put pairs in an alley and the horse will let the cows by you are cutting off and run the calves that get by you back, without missing one.
Or push them up to the chute for you, at the right time, otherwise stand back, waiting.
Many of those horses we would not give a second look in a show, their manners may not be the best, they work inverted, heads sometimes crooked, some only have one lead, may take an acre to turn them, if fresh may buck, but they will stay with you and get the work done, if you taught them what you need done in each context you work in.
Of couse, those that have those working skills and ride well, those are the stars anywhere.

Horses understand way more than we give them credit for.
No, they won’t write philosophical treatises any time soon, but then, they don’t have much else to do with their lives than learn about us and how we tick.

I agree that life is rarely for anyone about any kind of equality, but someone directing, the others following, if you are a horse or person AND that it is not always a given who will be the one doing the directing.

In that context, here dressage, the idea is to have a very well trained horse, trained to accept very precise directions, without resistences, to perform moving a certain way, under OUR guidance.

If you don’t understand that, you really don’t understand dressage.
If you want an equal partnership out of riding, dressage is just not going to be that for you, neither is most we do with horses.
Someone has to direct in dressage and it better not be the horse, by the rules the game is played by, or we could just teach horses tests and let them perform them without a rider.

As some have said, if you let a horse do what they want, they would very decidedly not choose to go ride a test.:winkgrin: