submission does not equal cowering in terror or subservience - it means responding to the aids willingly, it is the muscles allowing themselves to be influenced by the aids, not bracing, fighting.
obedience is necessary for riding, any riding. obedience does not equal beating.
obedience, submission are not dirty words. they have specific technical meaning in dressage.
dressage is not SVU squad.
So true, so true…
I think it must be the most misunderstood word in dressage-dom.
Other than forward.
a shame what ppl talk selves into, then no progress can happen.
Perhaps the term “stretching” should be used rather than deep. Most of what I saw on the Steffen Peters video was lateral bending and then stretching. At times the horse looked behind the vertical because he was being bent and hadn’t yet started stretching down onto the bit.
I’m curious about the origin of the term “deep”. Translation from German or the efforts of misguided individuals who won’t let go of their horses’ faces when it’s trying to stretch?
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;4663733]
Hmm
So why is it so wrong for a horse to be so ENTIRELY submissive in its face head and neck but yet the amount of driving needed for an upper level animal takes (at times) extensive amount of leg with spurs and whip?
OK, now I know some horse make it all the way without it, BUT lets be real when we say that majority (upper level) go in spurs and with regular use of both that and a whip and submission to them is demanded correct?
But when the horse it tugged into an extremely rounded position this all of the sudden is TOO much submission?
Confused by that standard, if not double[/QUOTE]
Again, it is tiresome to try and explain upper level training to someone who has never studied it and never produced a horse at that level. And one who has not been following this most recent set of threads. And one whose introductory post to the forum yesterday was a sarcastic “same old deep threads” comment about how this forum is still disappointing to you.
Stick to things you actually know.
I have produced FEI horses who do not and did not require a whip and spurs to train them, and for whom they had to be desensitized to spurs because the spurs are a required part of the costume at that level. The majority of upper level horses that I have ridden, did not require these aides to do a test. Low deep and round postures, including rollkur, do not require any force to produce them properly, but they do require extensive training and gymnastics to have a horse fit enough to produce and sustain them, like yoga for horses.
Ditto!
i take a different view 1. there are no bad questions 2. how do ppl learn if they follow your 2’s advice? 3. if it is so welll understood then it is not hard to explain it, no reason to avoid explaining what the misconception is.
nom if you don’t like rollkur ok there is a happy little group greeting you as their pal (also a happy group w/ open arms if you DO like it, lol)
if i can tolerate the threads so can you, lol. skip the thred if you think it is so bad.
personally i prefer people discuss it, something good always comes from people reading and thinking through different sides of an argument. i don’t think i am too old to have a new thought, are u so much older than that?
nom, if you have a chip someone will knock it off, but you still might learn something if you pay attention to how they hit ya, lol.
you are simplifying too much i think.
hyperflexion (xtreme position) many find just too xtreme but many successfully go a little position & benefit to horse i there.
it is not about submission ie some sort of cowering terror of horse, or control, but stretching, even the extreme pos. is about stretch. BUT w rembrandt ppl misinterpret what uphoff said (deliberately for their argument). for him the cause of nervousness was tight muscles in neck and back, the cause of tight muscle=nervous a viciouc cycle that needs to be broken somewhere. the mind and back are very intimately tied together. he was 2 when given to 9 year old child who one of greatest dressage masters of all time worked with her on how to deal w/ this horse.
stretching neck in warmup helps loosen back. stretching ‘chemistry’ spreads to other muscles.
when you see leg/spur used a lot there are different reasons such as urging horse to make more effort, to get them off forehand (horses get strong excited at shows and tip onto forehand), to ask more engagement.
don’t fall into the trap so many do thinking dressage is a contest to see who is the best statue in saddle. if something needs to be done it is better to do it than have the whole ride go down the drain. our goal is ‘invisible aids’ but sometimes the rider has to weigh that against needing to be effective right at that moment.
and no you do not need any knowledge of upper level to realize that, other poster is wrong there. but if one does not ride lower level correctly and just coast then that leads to ppl having way too much criticism of anyone who at some moment wants to accomplish something better in schooling or competition.
I love this thread!
Very interesting post, comments…I love Baroque pony’ words, catonlap…among others.
I agree I am not very confortable with the word Submission; I prefer a focused horse to a submissive horse.
read definition of word, it is not b&d.
Right…As I can see a word does not necessarely have the same meaning from one to another…
Sorry about that but I still love and read everybody !
You can also find this out on a xcountry course. They put their ears on the fence and say - “ok - got it, mom.” And you just stay put. So fun! And no training should take this out of a horse who’s safety and survival requires them to have an active role in decision making (e.g. when to take off). Such as the event horse…
If this seems off the wall - please see recent discussions on the event forum…
Do most people call this LDR because I would not say this is Rollkur??
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/accordion-instrument-dressage
There is a video on the second page.
[QUOTE=millerra;4664535]
You can also find this out on a xcountry course. They put their ears on the fence and say - “ok - got it, mom.” And you just stay put. So fun! And no training should take this out of a horse who’s safety and survival requires them to have an active role in decision making (e.g. when to take off). Such as the event horse…
If this seems off the wall - please see recent discussions on the event forum…[/QUOTE]
The same jumping, they help you look for the next jump, even if you are still discombobulated from the last.
Some I think learn to read numbers.
Now, with cattle, this is raised to another level, because they really can work and see results, the cattle penned, sorted, mothered up.
One smart horse, Salty, would go get the milk cow and bring her in every day, twice a day, on his own, would not bother her at any other time.
I think that some horses do like to work with us, but we also have trained them so they do like it.
Without that training, they really would not care.
[QUOTE=Peace;4664536]
Do most people call this LDR because I would not say this is Rollkur??
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/accordion-instrument-dressage
There is a video on the second page.[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FoVdHRZ85E&feature=player_embedded
I would not call that rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion. For me it’s Deep Training Method the same as Steffan Peters trains with. And the difference as I stated many times before is the release of the frame and putting horse’s neck in different positions for a short periods of time + horse has its feedback, its will and treated like a partner, not just like an circus animal. This is not forced nose to the chest extreme hyperflexion for the prolonged periods of time.
However, what is quite confusing that Catherine Haddad is a Facebook member of Sief’s LDR aka hyperflexion aka rollkur. Yet, she writes that she doesn’t practice rollkur.
Also she writes: “So look for good riding and when disappointed, don’t blame the system. It is the Archer, not the arrow, who has missed the mark.”
but yet again the question who several asked and didn’t get an answer yet: those are the videos of a “master archer”… is this s good rollkur/ldr/hyperflexion for you or the “Master archer” missed the mark in the warm up? Again and again and again?
rollkur/LDR/hyperflexion aka Sief’s training method:
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel
Gal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related
absolutely!
One of my “life dreams” is to ride a cutting horse. Now I know I’ll probably fall off but I really want to try it because it looks like fun. But I don’t know anyone w/ cutters… someday…
Everytime I see this thread I think it’s the Down Low Low Down.
knowhatimsayin?
yep.
People can’t learn how to ride or train horses on a bb. If you don’t ride/train at upper levels then you aren’t always going to understand the complexities of an upper level training technique. How to learn them? Learn to ride at the upper levels.
People are having a hard time explaining, other people are having a hard time understanding. It’s sometimes because they don’t have the saddle experience to really grok it.
Bluey, I’ve really enjoyed reading your posts. While it is a stretch to equate cattle work and dressage (;)), I do think some show people (all disciplines) can step back and appreciate the value of a WORKING horse, a necessary partner to get the job done.
Yes, showing is very much “our thing,” as people, not so much a “horse thing” for them to enjoy. Of course there are horses who love to show off, really light up with a crowd… but as MistyBlue said, they don’t do these things on their own. I don’t think showing is cruel at all-- I just think we, as competitive riders, sometimes focus too much on OURSELVES and what we make the horse do; instead of what we ALLOW the horse to do for us.
My cattle experience is rather limited, but I know exactly the kind of independent, task-oriented thinking that Bluey refers to. I have a 10-minute hack through 3 gated fields to get to a neighbor’s indoor. My mare can practically open the gates herself, if she had thumbs. I literally extend my arm, open my fingers, lean towards the latch, and she moves her body until I reach it. I do not touch the reins or use hardly any leg pressure. Once the gate is open, she automatically turns around, chests the gate where I can reach it, and then maneuvers herself (backing, sidepassing, turn on haunches, etc) until it closes and I’m able to latch it. Again, I don’t use the reins at all; I occasionally go on hacks through the fields bridleless just for fun. She stands completely still despite any unbalanced leaning, straining, or wiggling I may do to secure the gate (some of them are on awful hinges!). She stands still despite foreign horses sniffing her haunches, or fighting off a herd of cows trying to escape. She stands still in wind, rain, snow, and mud, avoiding barbed wire and tree branches. It’s just part of her job; she completely understands the concept of “we’re going that-away, there’s a gate, we must open it, and close it.” My job is simply to operate the latch (she almost gets offended if I dare make suggestions!). She’s a very intelligent, cooperative horse, and willingly accepts her end of the partnership so long as she understands the objective.
A good old cowboy once told me, “Tell a horse where to go, not how to get there,” and it has stuck with me. I tell my horse I want to go through the gate; she takes me through it. I don’t say, “Put your left front here, no not there, HERE, no, move your right over… not that far… ok, now back up… back UP!.. now stand still, wait, don’t move, no, go back…” etc.
My mare’s willingness also comes in handy for mounting, as well. Sometimes on the trail (or in the ring, for that matter) a mounting block isn’t handy and I’m forced to stand on anything remotely elevated (balancing on a jump cup 2’ up a standard, for example). Loosely holding the reins by the buckle, I can dangle my left foot in the air, and my mare will sidle up until my foot touches the stirrup. Forwards, backwards, sideways, however she has to move she will, until I can get on easily. I never taught her that, just something she does. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit. (BTW, this isn’t a dead-broke NH-trained QH I’m talking about. Rather, a fit upper-level eventing TB.)
[QUOTE=wbhorseusa;4656870]
This is driving me crazy listening to the crazy people out there who are thinking that low down (or long down) and round is the same as rollkur.
Here is a video of Steffan Peters warming up Ravel in low down and round.
http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm
[/QUOTE] What’s with the flapping legs!
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
