http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm
ooh my --------- he will take off soon keep doing that whats does he think hes riding a bird
score better than him on same horse at same shows then.
loose ‘open’ leg is better w some horses.
[QUOTE=slc2;4666102]
score better than him on same horse at same shows then.
loose ‘open’ leg is better w some horses.[/QUOTE]
So you think that’s "open leg"mmmmm interesting!
And what about flapping legs? Since when was that dressage?
[QUOTE=Kaluna;4665259]
-
yep.
-
People can’t learn how to ride or train horses on a bb. If you don’t ride/train at upper levels then you aren’t always going to understand the complexities of an upper level training technique. How to learn them? Learn to ride at the upper levels.
-
People are having a hard time explaining, other people are having a hard time understanding. It’s sometimes because they don’t have the saddle experience to really grok it.[/QUOTE]
Do you think these guys don’t understand or have the saddle experience?
Originally Sent Feb. 3 2010
Federation Equestre International
Avenue Rumine 37
CH – 1005 Lausanne Rosendahl
SWITZERLAND
February 3, 2010
Dear Sirs and Madames:
We submit herewith some comments concerning your upcoming roundtable discussion, scheduled for February 9th, at which you will be establishing a final plan for the handling of the topic of Rollkur/Hyperflexion.
Those of us who have signed this letter wish to point out sharply that new or amended rules with regard to the accepted classical precepts of riding, which are contained in the guidelines written down in your Handbook, are absolutely superfluous and therefore unnecessary. These precepts, which the FEI has up until now felt obliged to uphold, are already fully developed, tried and tested! They are already recognized world-wide as authoritative, and as fair to the horse. Based on centuries of experience, they offer a stable and secure foundation even for today’s riding.
No changes may be made that constitute a burden to the well-being of the horse, either physically or mentally. If you accept riding in hyperflexion as a permissible training method, you legitimize aggressive riding. We protest that in the strongest possible terms!
As horse people, we expect the FEI to maintain unaltered their regulations, which have until now been valid, resting as they do upon the classical precepts of riding – for the good of the horses and the continued good repute of international equestrian sport.
The undersigned support this statement:
Klaus Balkenhol (Olympic medalist)
(Joined by, in alphabetical order)
- Laura Bechtolsheimer (British Record Holder, 3. Europameisterschaften 2009)
- Wilfried Bechtolsheimer (Trainer)
- Ingrid Klimke (Olympic medalist)
- Ruth Klimke (Vice President of the German Riders Union)
- Beezie Madden (Olympic medalist)
- John Madden (Trainer)
- Debbie McDonald (Olympic Bronze medalist)
- Susanne Miesner (Trainer)
- George Morris (Chef d’equipe USEF show jumping team, Olympic silver medalist)
- Martin Plewa (former German national Three-Day Event trainer, Director of the Riding and Driving School of Westfalia)
- Michael Putz (Trainer and judge)
- Klaus-Martin Rath (Trainer, member of the Dressage Committee of the German Olympic
Committee) - Matthias Alexander Rath (German Meister 2009)
- Hinrich Romeike (Olympic medalist)
- Hubertus Schmidt (Olympic medalist)
- Günter Seidel (Olympic bronze medalist)
- Christine Stückelberger (Olympiic medalist)
- Paul Stecken (Trainer)
- Hans Günter Winkler (Olympic medalist)
- Harry Boldt, Dressur. Doppel-Olympiasieger, früherer Bundestrainer Dressur, GBR
- Beatrice Büchler-Keller, Swiss, FEI O-Richter
- Nadine Capellmann, Dressur, Olympiasiegrin
- Carsten Huck, Springen, Olympia Bronze-Gewinner
- Michael Klimke, Deuscther Meister, Dressur
- Ann Kathrinne Linsenhoff, Olympiasiegerin, WElt- und Europameisterin, Mitglied im FN-Präsidium
- Michael Robert, Olympia-Gewinner Bronze, Trainer
insult all you want as usual, you always stoop to that. one need not score xx% to see the horse is relaxed, forward, supple, correct. if he is using his leg that way in warmup it is intentional and he has enough education and experience to know how to use his leg in a given situation.
if he is using his leg that way in warmup it is intentional and he has enough education and experience to know how to use his leg in a given situation.
Yes indeedy.
I used to be told that, in warm up, you are not being judged.
During warm up you need to ride with your goal in mind to prepare your horse for that one competition ahead, it is not the competition.
Warming up doesn’t has to be pretty and correct, which it may be or not, but definitley has to be effective.
“Pretty and correct” is for the test.
That may be why some at times seem not to be riding as they would in competition?:yes:
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;4663733]
Hmm
So why is it so wrong for a horse to be so ENTIRELY submissive in its face head and neck but yet the amount of driving needed for an upper level animal takes (at times) extensive amount of leg with spurs and whip?
OK, now I know some horse make it all the way without it, BUT lets be real when we say that majority (upper level) go in spurs and with regular use of both that and a whip and submission to them is demanded correct?
But when the horse it tugged into an extremely rounded position this all of the sudden is TOO much submission?
Confused by that standard, if not double[/QUOTE]
:eek: Does anyone really think that you can have a truly amazing upper level horse by training with these methods? :no: This is the saddest statement I’ve seen posted on this topic.
Bluey,
But they are allowed to watch you (the TD/Ring Steward) and nail your backside for anything abusive. This is where the warm up riding needs to be watched more closely and the definitions of what is acceptable need to be more clearly defined.
[QUOTE=Bluey;4666459]
I used to be told that, in warm up, you are not being judged.
During warm up you need to ride with your goal in mind to prepare your horse for that one competition ahead, it is not the competition.
Warming up doesn’t has to be pretty and correct, which it may be or not, but definitley has to be effective.
“Pretty and correct” is for the test.
That may be why some at times seem not to be riding as they would in competition?:yes:[/QUOTE]
This does not surprise me:no:
[QUOTE=Velvet;4666878]
Bluey,
But they are allowed to watch you (the TD/Ring Steward) and nail your backside for anything abusive. This is where the warm up riding needs to be watched more closely and the definitions of what is acceptable need to be more clearly defined.[/QUOTE]
Anyone that is doing something abusive or breaking rules should be nailed for it.:yes:
Since any kind of all that passes for RK has been used for long time now, for what so many state, tens of years, I expect it is not as bad a technique as some claim,
Why start now to hunt people down that use any of it or may have used it and bash their riding, from a few pictures and videos of the many hours they are riding and try to make an example of them as terrible all over the internet, as the latests threads here show?
That seems a little bit extreme.:no:
[QUOTE=Bluey;4666890]
Anyone that is doing something abusive or breaking rules should be nailed for it.:yes:
Since any kind of all that passes for RK has been used for long time now, for what so many state, tens of years, I expect it is not as bad a technique as some claim,
Why start now to hunt people down that use any of it or may have used it and bash their riding, from a few pictures and videos of the many hours they are riding and try to make an example of them as terrible all over the internet, as the latests threads here show?
That seems a little bit extreme.:no:[/QUOTE]
I’ve been around along time and rarely have I seen it used in the jumper world and when it is it is for less time and less extreme at least that is what I have witnessed. I bring up the jumper land because everyone wants to say it came from the jumpers. Times have changed just think back 30 years to what was socially acceptable then…Times are changing!!!
[QUOTE=ridgeback;4666149]
Do you think these guys don’t understand or have the saddle experience? [QUOTE]
Did I SAY those guys don’t understand or have the saddle experience? Re-read for content, Ridgeback.
So why is it so wrong for a horse to be so ENTIRELY submissive in its face head and neck but yet the amount of driving needed for an upper level animal takes (at times) extensive amount of leg with spurs and whip?
this is off base.
OK, now I know some horse make it all the way without it, BUT lets be real when we say that majority (upper level) go in spurs and with regular use of both that and a whip and submission to them is demanded correct?
where to start…
But when the horse it tugged into an extremely rounded position this all of the sudden is TOO much submission?
how can that be related to submission at all?
[QUOTE=Bluey;4666890]
Anyone that is doing something abusive or breaking rules should be nailed for it.:yes:
Since any kind of all that passes for RK has been used for long time now, for what so many state, tens of years, I expect it is not as bad a technique as some claim,
Why start now to hunt people down that use any of it or may have used it and bash their riding, from a few pictures and videos of the many hours they are riding and try to make an example of them as terrible all over the internet, as the latests threads here show?
That seems a little bit extreme.:no:[/QUOTE]
The trouble is when it is used for such extended periods of time in these warm-up rings. That is not the intended use of RK nor was it - to my understanding, how it was used for previous decades (please correct me if I am wrong, but that has been my understanding throughout all these discussions). Rolkur itself is not a terrible technique, however when the horse is made to carry itself in such an extreme position for such extended periods of time - that is the ‘terrible’ aspect of it, or so it seems. People, including riders at the uppermost levels, have started more and more to use RK excessively, rather than as it was intended. This conclusion is not coming from a few photos, either, it’s coming from anecdotal and video evidence that this technique is being used for more than a few strides to stretch the horse down. It is being used for long periods of time to ‘control’ the horse and force it into submission.
[QUOTE=slc2;4667209]
how can that be related to submission at all?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? The vision of the horse is restricted, thus forcing it to fully submit to the will of the rider, who essentially has all the ‘control’. Top riders have repeatedly stated they use RK for submission.
[QUOTE=naturalequus;4667248]
The trouble is when it is used for such extended periods of time in these warm-up rings. That is not the intended use of RK nor was it - to my understanding, how it was used for previous decades (please correct me if I am wrong, but that has been my understanding throughout all these discussions). Rolkur itself is not a terrible technique, however when the horse is made to carry itself in such an extreme position for such extended periods of time - that is the ‘terrible’ aspect of it, or so it seems. People, including riders at the uppermost levels, have started more and more to use RK excessively, rather than as it was intended. This conclusion is not coming from a few photos, either, it’s coming from anecdotal and video evidence that this technique is being used for more than a few strides to stretch the horse down. It is being used for long periods of time to ‘control’ the horse and force it into submission.[/QUOTE]
Exactly you nailed it on the head!:yes::yes:
Vision is an issue, how it affects breathing and the brain cooling mechanism is another. No research has been done with the horse in true rollkur and for the same period of time that is seen in warmups and these issues are talked about in the equine science field, but no specific research projects have been funded.
I want to do some work with this researcher from Australia. Here is some info I did not know about horse’s vision:
http://www.myhorse.com/health/preventative/horse_vision_and_eyesight.aspx#top
[QUOTE=slc2;4667209]
So why is it so wrong for a horse to be so ENTIRELY submissive in its face head and neck but yet the amount of driving needed for an upper level animal takes (at times) extensive amount of leg with spurs and whip?
this is off base.
OK, now I know some horse make it all the way without it, BUT lets be real when we say that majority (upper level) go in spurs and with regular use of both that and a whip and submission to them is demanded correct?
where to start…
But when the horse it tugged into an extremely rounded position this all of the sudden is TOO much submission?
how can that be related to submission at all?[/QUOTE]
I should have said forced submission I guess…
Anyway my point was why so much more debate over this method when there are other “extremes” as well.
At breed shows and hunter/jumper shows, its pretty common to see the horses go around overly round, although not with the level of drive the dressage horses are asked for.
Do you think that makes a difference, the level of drive? Does that make it harsher?
