Low Down and Round is *not* rollkur

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;4667804]
I should have said forced submission I guess…

Anyway my point was why so much more debate over this method when there are other “extremes” as well.

At breed shows and hunter/jumper shows, its pretty common to see the horses go around overly round, although not with the level of drive the dressage horses are asked for.

Do you think that makes a difference, the level of drive? Does that make it harsher?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what hunter/jumper shows you are going to but go to wellington and come to KY in May and you won’t see overly round horses…:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[NOMIOMI1]

Hmmm

Arizona has its fair share of the big H/J shows.

When I brought up riding “chin to chest” to a Big name jumper trainer, he said that HE doesn’t do it nor his students AND that he’s hardly seen people do that at the shows either. But then we all watched the videos from last fall and you see tons of people warming up like that (including some of his students)…

I bet not all of them were West Coast riders. :eek::eek:

[ThreeFigs]

Warm-up, yes, but don’t jump a course with your horse curled up like that!

Demolition Derby!

If they’re jumping big courses, you BET they’re generating some drive. Perhaps warming the jumpers up LDR or RK (whatever you want to call it) winds their springs up nice & tight?

Any jumper folks here? Can you clarify?

[mbm]

naturalequus - While i respect your opinion I can not agree with your comment about rollkur being “good” if not done in excess.

The rules of the sport and the many texts laid down by the various masters all state that the horse put btv is detrimental to the work. (except for Baucher of course and his reasons were to “demolish the will of the horse” )

I can see why you would come to the conclusion you have reached given the threads on this board… but before you make up your mind - if you haven’t already, please do take the time to read some of the classic works of dressage theory, then watch some of the living and dead masters of the sport/art… and then of course spend some time, if you haven’t already to study bio-mechanics and anatomy… and finally, trust your gut.

honestly - there is NO reason for rollkur in dressage (baring life threatening situations) and for many years horse were trained without rollkur to great success… and I find it sad that we have reached a place where a little bit is considered “normal” and fine…

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Karoline;4667289]
Vision is an issue, how it affects breathing and the brain cooling mechanism is another. No research has been done with the horse in true rollkur and for the same period of time that is seen in warmups and these issues are talked about in the equine science field, but no specific research projects have been funded.

I want to do some work with this researcher from Australia. Here is some info I did not know about horse’s vision:

http://www.myhorse.com/health/preventative/horse_vision_and_eyesight.aspx#top[/QUOTE]

The FEI is funding an equine researcher in Austrialia. I could not find out what the funding was for.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=mbm;4668203]
naturalequus - While i respect your opinion I can not agree with your comment about rollkur being “good” if not done in excess.

The rules of the sport and the many texts laid down by the various masters all state that the horse put btv is detrimental to the work. (except for Baucher of course and his reasons were to “demolish the will of the horse” )

I can see why you would come to the conclusion you have reached given the threads on this board… but before you make up your mind - if you haven’t already, please do take the time to read some of the classic works of dressage theory, then watch some of the living and dead masters of the sport/art… and then of course spend some time, if you haven’t already to study bio-mechanics and anatomy… and finally, trust your gut.

honestly - there is NO reason for rollkur in dressage (baring life threatening situations) and for many years horse were trained without rollkur to great success… and I find it sad that we have reached a place where a little bit is considered “normal” and fine… :([/QUOTE]

Oh I have not made up my mind and I do not practise RK myself. As I have stated before, I do not ‘place’ my horses’ necks in any particular position, RK or not. I allow them to carry their necks where they feel appropriate according to their level of training, where they feel comfortable, and what they feel appropriate. I just feel that they are a better judge of what is appropriate than I am, though I can encourage them to think in such a direction through patterns and exercises. They are encouraged to carry themselves correctly (dropped croup, rounded back, tracking up, poll highest, etc) through exercises and patterns, not specifically through my hands or seat - their correct frame just comes naturally. However I’ve got photos myself of my horses under-saddle, stretching through what some would consider a RK frame, for a moment or two. So, I allow, through what my horses do naturally and some studies/experiences, that the RK frame could potentially be a beneficial stretch for horses, when done for say a few strides. I could see the horse being encouraged (but not held or ‘put’ there) to work through such a frame just to stretch the topline. However that’s it (IMO thus far). I certainly would never see its use (for myself) as a way of forcing a horse into submission.

ETA: I do not see a problem with a horse being gently ‘put’ in such a frame to encourage a stretch, I just do not do it myself as I do not see it necessary…I feel the horse will (mostly) do it on their own

I think my defiinition of “a little bit” and that of the individuals practicing the method, might differ…possibly to a very large extent. I personally see it as a light gymnastic exercise to stretch out the horse’s warmed muscles - for a moment. Not to actually work the horse in such a frame though. In moderation. Just as humans might put their selves in extreme poses of stretch - but only for 15-20 sec at a time, right?

If the position is held for an extended period of time (ie. more than say a minute??) I do feel it has detrimental effects on the horse.

Otherwise though I have done as you suggested and will certainly continue to do so - one can never stop learning :winkgrin:

[ThreeFigs]

I fear that MBM has closed her mind to the possibility that LDR has benefits. Perhaps not for all horses, all the time, but for some horses in some situations.

One of those would be my gelding, who had to go through a year’s worth of rehabilitation to overcome a back injury. Never “rollkured”, but ridden in a moderately low, deep and round frame. At that time, there was little else to be done with him. On a vet’s orders, I lunged him in either a Chambon or Vienna reins. For months I rode him with his withers/lower neck higher than his mid-neck or poll. This was based on the opinions of clinicians with much more experience than you (mbm) or I have. So for months, he was NOT textbook perfect. He could NOT be. He is healthy and correct now and there is no longer a need to ride LDR.

Understand, his entire rear end was atrophied from the injury and he did not have the strength to track up. Riding him poll-high would have been counter-productive for the health of his back. (Someone, in one of these threads, cited a study that explained rather well why the LDR worked for this horse…)

First, we had to build muscles over his loin, where the injury was. The muscles in his hind end developed as well over time. He was never ridden cranked up a’ la Kittel, but more like Peters in terms of position and stretch. (Within our meager capabilities!)

What irritates me about this discussion is the unwillingness of some to understand that there are times and places for unorthodox methods. I do not support Kittel’s extreme RK, but I’m all for the stretching and suppling that are evident with Peters’ use of LDR.

I’m not much of a computer guru, but I will try to post photos of this horse.

(AAAGH! This IS going to take a while!!! Where did that file go???)

[slc2]

for years i avoided slightly round deep posture, regret it now and can see what i missed. extreme position, no i don’t think i or my horses need.

[Nojacketrequired]

What irritates me about this discussion is the unwillingness of some to understand that there are times and places for unorthodox methods. I do not support Kittel’s extreme RK, but I’m all for the stretching and suppling that are evident with Peters’ use of LDR.

I agree with you.

Are there people here that are actually saying that periods of LDR (a la Peter’s use) are wrong? Or is everyone just jumping from one end of the spectrum to the other with no chance at middle ground?

I think LDR like Peter’s is fantastic and even necessary.

I don’t agree that what is suddenly being referred to as “ldr”, but which the FEI until recently referred to as hyperflexion, is useful due to the length of time and amount of overstretch required of the horses.

It seems like someone said “If a little is good, more must be better.”

What it reminds me of is what happened with Western Pleasure in the QH industry. One Pleasure horse could naturally go slower and lower than the others and won big, and that became the gold standard, regardless of how you acheived it. It became accepted to practice very shoddy training practices in the name of winning. The people who were winning and generating money were in a position to push rule changes through…to the detriment of the breed, which they are now, 20 years later, trying to clean up.

It can be a slippery slope, and I hope dressage doesn’t start it’s descent over this issue.

NJR

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Nojacketrequired;4669288]
I agree with you.

Are there people here that are actually saying that periods of LDR (a la Peter’s use) are wrong? Or is everyone just jumping from one end of the spectrum to the other with no chance at middle ground?

I think LDR like Peter’s is fantastic and even necessary.

I don’t agree that what is suddenly being referred to as “ldr”, but which the FEI until recently referred to as hyperflexion, is useful due to the length of time and amount of overstretch required of the horses.

It seems like someone said “If a little is good, more must be better.”

What it reminds me of is what happened with Western Pleasure in the QH industry. One Pleasure horse could naturally go slower and lower than the others and won big, and that became the gold standard, regardless of how you acheived it. It became accepted to practice very shoddy training practices in the name of winning. The people who were winning and generating money were in a position to push rule changes through…to the detriment of the breed, which they are now, 20 years later, trying to clean up.

It can be a slippery slope, and I hope dressage doesn’t start it’s descent over this issue.

NJR[/QUOTE]

Except that with RK we are not talking about showing, but training.

No one is showing in any kind of RK, just some are using that as a training technique, one used in most sports and fitness routines, hyperstretching, in all it’s forms and ranges.

We need to remember that we don’t even have a common definition of any of those names for that one technique in horses.
First, before anyone can rule any one way, there ought to be an agreement of what everyone means when they say RK.

[Don_Raphaelo_Rollkur]

Question.Honest.Is a yoga master that has over a period of many years, and much gradual training,become comfortable putting his or her leg behind the head, more healthy or less healthy than when that person began this training?Please answer in mind that the horses options for choice ended with the first halter.

[egontoast]

Don raffy, it’s pointless.

Their dogma ran over your karma.

[Karoline]

Well, I lived for several years in india and we had a yoga teacher come to the house a couple of times a week, and what I learned is that at the very core of yoga is the breath. Why yoga is so uniquely designed for human is that it is marries consciousness, breathwork and the body.

In America, pretty much you can take a couple of months course and call yourself a yoga instructor, I think that has morphed real yoga into yoga-light. Who talks about the origin of yoga and its meaning as freedom from suffering?

A horse cannot consciously control the breath to facilitate the stretch. A horse does not put himself in that position of his own volition. And anatomically, a horse is built quite differently then we are so that comparison while popular is not correct.

Oh, and I am large woman but I can still do lotus, headstand and if really warmup I can put my foot behind my head. Based on that I would say that I have very limber joints not that I am better off now then ten years ago.
I was quite surprised reading an article on the oldest yogis in india, guys in their late 80ies and 90ies and they were all plump happy old men, limber but not athletic or asetic(spell?). That did surprised me.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4668741]
I fear that MBM has closed her mind to the possibility that LDR has benefits. Perhaps not for all horses, all the time, but for some horses in some situations.

One of those would be my gelding, who had to go through a year’s worth of rehabilitation to overcome a back injury. Never “rollkured”, but ridden in a moderately low, deep and round frame. At that time, there was little else to be done with him. On a vet’s orders, I lunged him in either a Chambon or Vienna reins. For months I rode him with his withers/lower neck higher than his mid-neck or poll. This was based on the opinions of clinicians with much more experience than you (mbm) or I have. So for months, he was NOT textbook perfect. He could NOT be. He is healthy and correct now and there is no longer a need to ride LDR.

Understand, his entire rear end was atrophied from the injury and he did not have the strength to track up. Riding him poll-high would have been counter-productive for the health of his back. (Someone, in one of these threads, cited a study that explained rather well why the LDR worked for this horse…)

First, we had to build muscles over his loin, where the injury was. The muscles in his hind end developed as well over time. He was never ridden cranked up a’ la Kittel, but more like Peters in terms of position and stretch. (Within our meager capabilities!)

What irritates me about this discussion is the unwillingness of some to understand that there are times and places for unorthodox methods. I do not support Kittel’s extreme RK, but I’m all for the stretching and suppling that are evident with Peters’ use of LDR.

I’m not much of a computer guru, but I will try to post photos of this horse.

(AAAGH! This IS going to take a while!!! Where did that file go???)[/QUOTE]

what surprises me in this discussion is folks that are doing normal work, whether deep, or rehab, etc and wanting to call it “Rollkur” or “LDR” … and then these same folks take the comments about rollkur personally and attack people for “not being open minded” etc…

first, just because i don’t believe rollkur has a place in NORMAL dressage training, does not mean i am closed minded. i am not sure how that equation is supposed to work?

Second : my feeling is that this is being done to muddy the conversation … I hope this isnt true because it is muddy enough already.

as for LDR - again I refer everyone to Sjefs articles where he explicitly states that his method is LDR and since he is the king of rollkur - what is a girl to think?

rollkur is what PK was doing and what anky is doing is many many videos and pics… etc etc.

actually, I am editing this to add: i actually would of called SPs work LDR, except that Sjef calls what he does LDR and since what he does is called rollkur by most folks, it gets a bit mixed up.

my feeling is that the LDR facebook page was a brilliant PR move on “their” part to muddy the waters and get the rabble (us) confused …

clearly it is working.

perhaps we need to use pictures instead of words to describe what we mean because in all honestly to me, deep is lowering the neck, not necessarily bringing the horse horse btv. but of course i learned this from an old school trainer, and everything has gotten so over sized nowadays …

[ThreeFigs]

No, what I did with my horse I NEVER called rollkur. Please reread my post. Perhaps I was not clear enough?

What I did during his rehab I called low, deep and round, or just deep. There are several people here, and correct me if I’m wrong, who seem to believe than ANY horse put behind the vertical with his nose and with his poll NOT at the highest point is doing some form of “rollkur”, when in fact it is just a stretching, loosening posture.

Years ago, people had a cow over horses ridden even slightly LDR. Seems some still are, in spite of evidence that horses schooled that way (again, everything in moderation, and as needed) can and do benefit from it. My horse is one such.

We don’t need to do ANY LDR now, and haven’t used it since the first year of rehab. It did what it was supposed to do, it helped my horse build his back and regain strength. Now that “tool” goes back into the box. I may never need it again.

It’s been two years since I bought this horse. He is completely sound, healthy and as happy as a horse can be. I work regularly with respected clinicians who give me their opinions and feedback on his development. We get very favorable comments from judges at shows. This horse is a perfect example of what careful riding & rehabilitation can do.

And yes, Bluey, I did not show the horse until we were past the need for LDR. You are right, it is a training tool, not something to display in the show ring.

NJR, yes, I think the problem lies in determining when a useful suppling LDR becomes an abusive and forced RK. I rode my horse softly in LDR. Nothing was ever forced.

Where is that tipping point? That moment when soft and stretched becomes curled and forced? It doesn’t always happen suddenly – its more like that fable about boiling frogs in a pot. Who decides? The trainer, the rider, the steward, the judge, the bystander?

Here is a photo of us in our championship First Level Open test, 18 months after purchase. Ignore that old lady on the horse!

http://gallery.me.com/manifor/100068

I wish I could find a photo of his “early days”. I may have to dig out a short video clip. This will take forever. I’m no computer guru.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=mbm;4670102]
what surprises me in this discussion is folks that are doing normal work, whether deep, or rehab, etc and wanting to call it “Rollkur” or “LDR” …

perhaps we need to use pictures instead of words to describe what we mean because in all honestly to me, deep is lowering the neck, not necessarily bringing the horse horse btv. but of course i learned this from an old school trainer, and everything has gotten so over sized nowadays …[/QUOTE]

I think you are correct. Personally, I do not know the true definition of RK anymore. Everyone seems to tout a different definition derived from either a BNT or some long-past horseman. Who is correct?

My likely mistake in ‘mis-naming’ RK is honest, though perhaps you are correct in that the waters are being muddied purposely by some???

I agree with your definition of Deep…though I would, I think, classify SP’s work in the video in question as such as well as some LDR. I liked what I saw because I saw a relaxed, loose horse. Granted I did not like the loud legs, however the horse seemed comfortable and stretching rather than being forced into such a frame in the name of submission or gymnastics.

I would consider Rolkur to be a horse with its nose to the chest and btv however not forced and not held - the horse stretches into such a position for perhaps a stride or two, stretching out a topline (that is previously warmed up). I consider Anky’s (et al) use of RK as ‘abuse of RK’ rather than RK itself.

However that is just me and I fully admit to being potentially incorrect in my definitions, particularly since dressage on a more serious note is rather new to me. I just do not know what to think re: the various definitions being tossed about and likely will never know until I do some further reading (if even then?). It seems the vast majority might be in the same position as I - know one knows what definitions are appropriate (or they think their definition is appropriate) as so many seemingly valid sources are present. Just offering up my take, since I have been posting here

Lovely horse and frame Beasmom!!

[Coppers_mom]

For all this arguing over semantics and “what RK is”, I have to point out one funny little tidbit…

There was a thread specifically asking what the definition of RK was to you, and hardly anyone replied.

I find it odd that for all this screaming, no one really knows what anyone else is talking about.* In fact, I specifically asked members of the anti-RK group what their definition was so that we could more clearly discuss the topic, and surprise! No one answered. I even got one “I can’t answer that”.

*But my personal belief is because people read what they want and everyone else, no matter what they actually say, be darned

[ThreeFigs]

Very good point, Coppers Mom.

Thanks NE! I love that horse more than my life. He is the best thing that ever happened to me.

[system]

I am Rollkur.

[mbm]

WEll, here is my honest take on it.

I have posted videos and pictures saying “this is rollkur” because it is a lot easier to show than tell. now, until recently people would accept what Anky et al did as “rollkur”, and then Hyperflexion and of course Sjefs “LDR”

then it started happening that folks would say that isnt rollkur. huh? if the queen of rollkur isnt doing rollkur - what is she doing? and further people said “what anky is doing is not CORRECT rollkur” - again… if the queen of rollkur is not “doing it correctly” what is she doing then?

i guess i will say from now on instead of rollkur "whatever you want to call it that PK and anky and their ilk do that takes the nose to the chest and then spurs the horse forward " however, there will be instances where it isnt quite like that so of course someone will attack and say “AHA” ! see? you dont know what you are talking about and anky isnt doing (insert whatever you want to call it here)

and i DO think that just in the last few weeks there has been a very interesting change in how folks talk about rollkur…

and finally, what i have learned from BBs… when you post you must be so specific and so nit picky that sometimes what is said is diluted… because lord knows there are folks waiting to attack and call names and say “see just last week you were stating thus and so so you are backpeddling!”

sigh