[QUOTE=naturalequus;4670175]
I would consider Rolkur to be a horse with its nose to the chest and btv however not forced and not held -![/QUOTE]
so what does anky and PK et al do? what you saw in the PK video is rollkur - no matter what Sjef wants to call it (LDR)
and that is what we are talking about when we say rollkur.
and as far as I know , no ODG (except baucher who was ridiculed for the most part) ever thought btv was good.
sorry, one more question: why all of a sudden are folks using LDR?
I have been reading the boards for over 10 years and rarely, if ever, read anyone using LDR… always it was long and low, FDO forward, down… deep…
??
eta: omg, 10 YEARS? cripes… time flies when your having fun 
[QUOTE=mbm;4670211]
so what does anky and PK et al do? what you saw in the PK video is rollkur - no matter what Sjef wants to call it (LDR)
and that is what we are talking about when we say rollkur.
and as far as I know , no ODG (except baucher who was ridiculed for the most part) ever thought btv was good.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I do not know then. LOL. Sorry 
I have been going by the definitions I personally have been reading, researching, and understanding and have understood Anky and Sjef’s methods to be the abuse of hyperflexion/RK/LDR and not such as it was intended. I could be wrong though.
I guess I do not care what a technique is called - I decide based on what I see in the horse (tense? relaxed? being taught to carry itself correctly? uncomfortable? etc etc) and what works/makes sense/is beneficial and not harmful/etc bio-mechanically/with the horse’s anatomy. Of course though this does not clear up any muddy waters though, in fact it directly contributes to such mud. Perhaps the solution would be for the FEI to specifically outline (with thorough definitions and the use of photos and video) such definitions, if they have not already done so (have they?)?? Perhaps then we would all have a common platform from which to work from 
[QUOTE=mbm;4670215]
sorry, one more question: why all of a sudden are folks using LDR?
I have been reading the boards for over 10 years and rarely, if ever, read anyone using LDR… always it was long and low, FDO forward, down… deep…
??
eta: omg, 10 YEARS? cripes… time flies when your having fun ;)[/QUOTE]
Fads?
NaturalEquus, I guess I am not sure who could possibly be the expert on Rollkur that would be able to say that Anky/Sjef et al are doing it wrong - and i say this because Sjef (re) invented the method for modern use.
[QUOTE=mbm;4670246]
NaturalEquus, I guess I am not sure who could possibly be the expert on Rollkur that would be able to say that Anky/Sjef et al are doing it wrong - and i say this because Sjef (re) invented the method for modern use.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t this the same kind of nonsensical, “you have no idea and can’t question because he’s so much better than you”, bs that you guys are always arguing against?
And again, if you’re going to go by what the kings and queens say, you’re wrong as well. No where has Sjef every said that in order to do RK you must crank the head in, spur like mad, and hang on the horse’s face. That is what you think you are seeing, kind of like the “blue” tongue.
So, again, I tell you. 90% of the time, you guys are arguing against bad riding, not RK.
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4670263]
Isn’t this the same kind of nonsensical, “you have no idea and can’t question because he’s so much better than you”, bs that you guys are always arguing against?
And again, if you’re going to go by what the kings and queens say, you’re wrong as well. No where has Sjef every said that in order to do RK you must crank the head in, spur like mad, and hang on the horse’s face. That is what you think you are seeing, kind of like the “blue” tongue.
So, again, I tell you. 90% of the time, you guys are arguing against bad riding, not RK.[/QUOTE]
Wait weren’t you just over in the I"m so over Rollkur threads yet your over here reading and posting. Can’t whine if your going to participate.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;4670295]
Wait weren’t you just over in the I"m so over Rollkur threads yet your over here reading and posting. Can’t whine if your going to participate.:D[/QUOTE]
Ummmm… HELLO!! I was telling everyone what heathens they were! GAH :rolleyes:
Sorry, I spent the weekend with my 13 year old niece, I can’t even help it :lol:
[QUOTE=mbm;4670246]
NaturalEquus, I guess I am not sure who could possibly be the expert on Rollkur that would be able to say that Anky/Sjef et al are doing it wrong - and i say this because Sjef (re) invented the method for modern use.[/QUOTE]
But that’s what I mean, is his ‘re-invention’ truly the original method??
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4670263]
Isn’t this the same kind of nonsensical, “you have no idea and can’t question because he’s so much better than you”, bs that you guys are always arguing against?
And again, if you’re going to go by what the kings and queens say, you’re wrong as well. No where has Sjef every said that in order to do RK you must crank the head in, spur like mad, and hang on the horse’s face. That is what you think you are seeing, kind of like the “blue” tongue.
So, again, I tell you. 90% of the time, you guys are arguing against bad riding, not RK.[/QUOTE]
So, and I am asking honestly here, what is the ‘blue’ tongue then?? Am I missing something?? That was a clearly eschemic tongue I saw in the video, and irregardless, wasn’t that a pretty long time for a horse to be held in such a position? The horse in question seemed to grow increasingly discontent and his rider clearly (well, to my eye) had pretty strong hands. It only makes sense in such a position (which restricts the airway as is) and with such hands that the bit is going to press down on the tongue with a lot of weight, thus creating hypoxia.
These riders might not say to do as you listed, however it seems clear (?) their rides are hand-dominated (disrupted trot diagonals, etc), their legs are loud (which is not necessary if you look at other riders with very quiet legs), and the nose is to the chest (dropping the lumbar, raising the croup, ‘breaking’ the neckline, restricting the airway).
sidenote Take note please I am not arguing against the horse being stretched down (willingly, softly, without force) to stretch out the topline - for a stride or two. However I do have a problem with the technique - whatever you want to call it (RK/LDR/hyperflexion/bad riding) as used in the blue tongue video - that was extreme, blue tongue or not.
So, A few years back, Klaus B. and Gerd H. came to Massachusetts to do a 3 day symposium for NEDA. I was transfixed and didn’t miss a minute. One morning was essentially a lecture. Part of this Klaus played short video clips of folks warming up at the last major competition (may have been the olympics). I was really bummed at how they showed our riders at the best moments (Debby Mcdonald, steffen) But then Anky at a moments of resistence. I though it was total propaganda. I thought that you really needed to see the whole thing, not quick little selected segments.
Gerd, at the time was focusing mainly on the legs - he wanted the cannon bones of the hind to be parallel to the fore (so Totilas’s extended trot would not meet this criteria). This didn’t make complete sense to me - I studied mammology in college - as for example, the hock is very different from the knee, the mobility of the shoulder, very different from the hip.
I had an opportunity to talk one on one to Gerd and I asked him if this parallel theory would also be necessary in piaffe. He said yes. (I thought huh). About 10 minutes later - he crossed the room and found me and changed his answer. I got the feeling that he hadn’t really thought this out. I’m not sure if this is relevant to this topic, but I do think it is interesting. Even Gerd doesn’t have all the answers all the time.
So, re Stefen. I love the riding shown on that youtube clip (I’d love to ride this horse). I have an aquaintance who is an USDF “R” judge who was actually at Achen and insists that Stefen was warming up in rollkur. Perhaps what was shown on youtube is exactly what she saw and she calls this rollkur. Perhaps he was indeed warming up in rollkur and this part of the warm up was not posted on youtube. I was not there.
And I think that is my point…There seems to be a bit of a witch hunt going on with folks trying to catch Anky (or patrik, or any one Dutch) in some extreme moments. Yet Angela Walkup from horsegirltv, who was actually there training posted to COTH that she wasn’t seeing this at all. I’ve never had the opportunity to watch Anky or Sjef. All you see are very short segments perhaps showing the worst moments.
Since there is so much confusion in terminology and opinions on what or how much or how long is too much - I don’t see how anyone could possibly receive a yellow card.
right this is why the FEI needs to come to some conclusion on what is rollkur and what is not… and what would get a yellow card and what would not.
hopefully they have the balls to do it this week.
i fear if they do not … the natives might go ballistic.
as for anky et al being with hunted - this is not true. however, she is the one that uses this method in more public places that any one else.
and, in any case if someone does say look at so and so they are doing roll kur - people say "why are you picking on him? hie is just following the pack - go get the “leaders”
cant win.
in any case… use of over flexion should be penalized on the show grounds - just as polling , excessive whipping is etc.
ETA: re: Dr H - english is his second language… so i might cut him some slack about that… unless of course you were speaking in german? but in any case - it is good to hear that he is able to admit he mis spoke or can think thu an issue and come to a different conclusion.
[QUOTE=naturalequus;4670701]
So, and I am asking honestly here, what is the ‘blue’ tongue then?? Am I missing something?? That was a clearly eschemic tongue I saw in the video, and irregardless, wasn’t that a pretty long time for a horse to be held in such a position? The horse in question seemed to grow increasingly discontent and his rider clearly (well, to my eye) had pretty strong hands. It only makes sense in such a position (which restricts the airway as is) and with such hands that the bit is going to press down on the tongue with a lot of weight, thus creating hypoxia.
These riders might not say to do as you listed, however it seems clear (?) their rides are hand-dominated (disrupted trot diagonals, etc), their legs are loud (which is not necessary if you look at other riders with very quiet legs), and the nose is to the chest (dropping the lumbar, raising the croup, ‘breaking’ the neckline, restricting the airway).
sidenote Take note please I am not arguing against the horse being stretched down (willingly, softly, without force) to stretch out the topline - for a stride or two. However I do have a problem with the technique - whatever you want to call it (RK/LDR/hyperflexion/bad riding) as used in the blue tongue video - that was extreme, blue tongue or not.[/QUOTE]
I agree it’s extreme, that’s why I’ve repeatedly said that there is a difference between the position and the application.
I have used the position, and it worked well. However, I don’t agree with how it’s being applied in warmups such as in the pink tongue video. Not because of all the things that I don’t know are going on (cranking, holding, forcing, whatever), but because of the simple fact that a stretch, which is what RK is touted as, is not beneficial when done for that long. You can take the most classical of classical principles of dressage, and still do it wrong. Is that because classical dressage is bad? No, it’s because the riding is bad.
And the tongue was pink. People can wail about it being blue all they want, but they are simply wrong, and no matter how hysterical they get, they will continue to be wrong.
[QUOTE=mbm;4670879]
right this is why the FEI needs to come to some conclusion on what is rollkur and what is not… and what would get a yellow card and what would not
.
The FEI first needs to come to the conclusion that they do not want extreme hyperflexion to be permitted
as for anky et al being with hunted - this is not true. however, she is the one that uses this method in more public places that any one else.
Now how do you know this? Have you been to a bunch of shows in Europe? If so lucky you. Have you seen her DVD of the masterclass that she and Sjef did in England? There was NO hyperflexion.
in any case… use of over flexion should be penalized on the show grounds - just as polling , excessive whipping is etc.
This is your opinion.
ETA: re: Dr H - english is his second language… so i might cut him some slack about that… unless of course you were speaking in german? but in any case - it is good to hear that he is able to admit he mis spoke or can think thu an issue and come to a different conclusion.
Dude, you were not even there! He understood me.
[QUOTE=caddym;4670919]
The FEI first needs to come to the conclusion that they do not want extreme hyperflexion to be permitted.[/QUOTE]That would be a good start.
The issue of extreme prolonged hyperflexion is here to stay. There will be people who support extreme prolonged hyperflexion and there will be people who are against the extreme prolonged hyperflexion. I don’t think that those 2 sides can come to an agreement on training methods. That should not be the goal. The goal should be to reach the middle ground between those and try to come to the compromise that works for BOTH at the public spaces where both sides have to be present. Not only for one side, but for BOTH sides.
Agreed then.
I don’t think anyone here has ever argued that Classical dressage is ‘bad’ (correct me if I am wrong though?). I myself incorporate it into my methods (my own methods have essentially resulted in producing Classical in a horse, if that makes sense) and I currently have a Classical dressage coach. Classical (correct Classical) just makes sense to me. Personally I have been arguing against poor training techniques, as seems most everyone else has as well.
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