LS Blog - homegrown horses are our best chance for topping the podium

[CanteringCarrot]

@Demerara_Stables

@CanteringCarrot

Yeah, nothing like seeing a “trainer” ride around on a lame horse in a video. Or claim they’ve ridden GP yet only have photos/videos of them at 1st level and no record at any higher level.

Well it’s a good thing you (g) can visit people’s farms and see them and their program in person instead of making snap judgements based on your poor reading comprehension and on a few things you see on the internet.

Of course! Visiting the trainer and farm in person is never a bad idea in my opinion.

As for the "snap judgment, " is it one though? If you (g) see multiple videos of a trainer riding a lame horse or horses, or otherwise riding in a way that you don’t prefer, why would you think them to be worth your time?

I’m also not sure why you assume “poor reading comprehension?” We are not all idiots. Most of us can, in fact, read. Sometimes a trainer legitimately writes and inflated “bio” of sorts that just doesn’t line up. We’ve seen those types on here before. Are they the majority? No.

Your threshold for what a “snap judgement” is may differ from mine, and that’s fine. I’m generally willing to give people a chance and prefer in person communication and/or visuals, so visiting the trainer is an excellent thing to do.

Edited to add: I fully understand that some trainers might not be so good in the online advertising department, that’s why you have things like word of mouth too. Or just seeing for yourself.

My point is that there are some that have so much out there in terms of info, video, photos, competition records, etc. I think you can usually form a reasonably somewhat educated opinion based on a certain amount of examples.

[Mondo]

@DownYonder

Regarding starting OTTBs in dressage - aren’t the racers taught that more/firmer contact with their mouth means “go faster”? So they learn to really grab the bit/lean into the contact and that can sometimes cause issues with dressage training when they seek a firm contact or respond to it by getting more on the forehand and “pulling”?

That used to be the case a zillion years ago when I started out. Nowadays, They start them on a pretty light contact. Some of them have had ground work before they leave the track too, so lungeing isn’t such a big deal. I know of one racehorse trainer who used to take her charges home in the off season and teach them dressage and jumping basics so that they would be ready for new careers when they finally left the track. A lot of them come with a few buttons already installed anymore. The primary issue I’ve had is getting them to go to the right. They only run counterclockwise and you need to spend a little time reassuring them that they can go to the right too.

[Angela_Freda]

I trail rode my friends racehorse who ran and placed that weekend, she was on her three year old, and we were teaching him to jump.
Great horse.

[skydy]

I was not afraid to back and ride any of my horses that I raised from weanlings. I was lucky though, with good temperaments.

If I had been concerned about getting on for the first time, I certainly would have enlisted help. However, I would have been very concerned with the CV of the trainer, and would have made sure that whomever I chose to ride a young horse for me was very well qualified.

The reason I bought weaners for my at home horses was twofold. 1) Economics, 2) Not having to retrain someone else’s mistakes.

No way would I find a young horse “trainer” (if I knew I needed one) solely from an advertisement on the internet, unless they could show me a video of how they ride through a bucking young horse, and the end result of a calm and unworried baby afterward.

Word of mouth really does seem to be the best indicator to find someone that is qualified in your area.

@Demerara_Stables, as a professional young horse starter and trainer, if a young horse is rank or just difficult, can you sit the buck? The buck and spin? The buck, spin , and dropping the shoulder? Some young horses will do this no matter how much ground work you give them. Thankfully none of mine did.

It is important that the first person to ride a young horse that objects to a rider will be able to stay on, so the horse realizes that bucking the rider off isn’t an option. That is why many people with hot babies choose a “cowboy”.

Unfortunately for people who want young horse trainers in their chosen discipline, the H/J and Dressage trainers that can sit a big buck are usually competing, or riding student’s horses, not taking in babies to train for the public.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Maybe decades ago but not now. Ottbs are so rideable and easy. Trainers expose them to so many things and make them really well rounded nowadays so they have a second career after the track. They lunge, they know how to go over ground poles, they turn and steer, the might even have a race change. They also mature really quick and cantering is really easy peasy compared to teaching warmbloods to canter.

You might have to fix their neck and shoulders to get them dressagy and round but the “go faster firm contact” I think is a thing of the past. I do still see that concept on gaited horses sometimes…and even those horses if you use your voice and say whoa it overrides it quickly.

[Demerara_Stables]

@skydy

as a professional young horse starter and trainer, if a young horse is rank or just difficult, can you sit the buck? The buck and spin? The buck, spin , and dropping the shoulder? Some young horses will do this no matter how much ground work you give them. Thankfully none of mine did.

I’ve started dozens of young horses and not one has bucked or reared or spun because I take my time with them and there is no confusion or fear when I get on for the first time.

But yes, I can sit all of those things, and do on a regular basis. On horses that have been screwed up by poor training and are with me for rehab.

[Bogey2]

@Demerara_Stables

I take my time with them and there is no confusion or fear when I get on for the first time.

This is so important and is what I looked for…I picked mine up as an imported 3 your. old and did not know enough about his handling so sough help from someone who starts them the way you do!

[pluvinel]

@skydy

The reason I bought weaners for my at home horses was twofold. 1) Economics, 2) Not having to retrain someone else’s mistakes.

THIS^^^^ is my philosophy. I like nice horses and prefer to buy them “on the payment plan” that happens when you buy young and put in time (and expense) into bringing along. I then get the horse I want…eg., the polite equine citizen who stands ground tied, they stand for the farrier, vet…they lead politely and move away when asked…etc. I have backed my all my own, but as I cruise into my 70’s I might find someone else to be the first to sit on them.

As a matter of fact, I just got an email from a person that had bought a horse I raised from yearling. She raved about how well he has been going and gave the example that he “did not have to be drugged” for the farrier." Ok.

[CanteringCarrot]

I find that if you put in the work before getting on them, it truly is a non event by the time you are on them for the first time. Starting my 3 year old last month, was a total non event.

If I had any hesitation, I would’ve sent him off to a trainer, and would’ve been very careful with my choice on who to send him to. It’s so important that they have the right start.

I do think only choosing a trainer from your desired discipline can be limiting. Are there dressage riders that are excellent at starting young horses? Absolutely. However, if the training ideas and care (if you’re doing training board) matches up, and the trainer rides western, I wouldn’t exclude them. That’s me though, and others are free to do as they wish.

I chat with 2 local trainers from time to time. One is western and has always been, the other rides western but did ride dressage in Europe for a number of years. Interestingly, all 3 of us (I am not a trainer though) are quite similar in how we start horses. We all want forward, stop, start, steer, and a confident horse. We all focus on groundwork so when you swing your leg over, it’s a non event. It’s also crucial to know when the horse is truly ready to be ridden. You absolutely do not want the trainer to rush the horse along.

It’s just so important to do your research. We have the internet at our disposal, so word of mouth can travel even faster and further. When you research, talk to, and visit a potential trainer, you really need to have your eyes wide open and feel comfortable.

I don’t think that every pro needs to be a “young horse starter” but I do think it should probably be a part of their resume, because there is so, so, much that you can learn and gain from the experience. The horse that I went the furtherst on (level/competition wise) and learned the most from was one I had from the very beginning of his riding career. I’ve had others I’ve started and sold just a few years later, but once I found the one I wanted to stick with, I had the best journey and the most success.

I did have success and learned a lot on the more experienced horses that I rode and/or bought, but there’s just something different about starting from the beginning. I do understand that it’s not for everyone. Starting and working with young horses is tough at times. Even when you do it right. It just takes a certain mentality and level of resilience. Granted, that applies to horses in general, but there are some unique components to starting a young horse.

Also, there will likely be a filtering process of sorts where you might start 6 young horses, but only stick with or make it to the top with one. Which is fine, if you can afford it time, money, and skill wise. Which I think that’s where much of the struggle lies in the US.

I do think it can be valuable and there just is something a bit different when it comes to having a horse from day one to day none, vs “taking over a ride” or going with an already trained horse. I do think success can be found both ways, but the homegrown concept and the points that LS brings up, should be considered for sure.

On a lighter note, I will say that this gave me a laugh when I read the article:

“There’s all sorts in this world, but a whole lot of us got into riding horses because we’re not that great with people.”

It’s just too true a lot of the time. I mean, we see it on here all the time Granted one can have both people and horse skills, don’t get me wrong, it is something to keep in mind whenever we clash with a fellow horse person. We’re passionate people, but passionate about horses, not people

I say most of this in jest, but there’s some truth to it.

There are a few roads one can take to get to Rome, and as long as the horse and the horse’s welfare is at the forefront, I don’t really care which road someone takes.

[TwiSedai]

Side note, if the colt starter is teaching your baby to slam on the brakes from the bit, that’s not really a good colt starter. Western riders don’t even want a horse that slams on the brakes when they feel the bit.

[BrownDerby]

I agree. That sounds like backyard show pen wanna be, not someone who considers every horse a partner and co- or cow-worker.

[fivestrideline]

@Demerara_Stables

I own one that was absolutely ruined because they installed “stop no matter what when we touch your mouth.” 3 years on and we’re still trying to get the horse to accept contact enough to collect without stopping.

That’s a horse that was badly started then. Your western disciplines DO NOT want that. That’s a symptom of a bad trainer, not a discipline issue.

@TwiSedai

if the colt starter is teaching your baby to slam on the brakes from the bit, that’s not really a good colt starter

Exactly.

[Ghazzu]

@K_VanOlst

Maybe our small boutique breeders are just not putting the numbers of foals on the ground to cull like the stage sponsored studs.

I expect this is a significant factor–and I doubt there’s much public appetite for the culls. (pun intended)

[GraceLikeRain]

@Ghazzu

I expect this is a significant factor–and I doubt there’s much public appetite for the culls. (pun intended)

At the cost it takes to produce in the US, probably so. If you can produce one for $7,500 and then cull and sell it for about that much, there’s likely an AA without Grand Prix aspirations happy to have a thoughtfully bred but more average moving horse. When it takes $25k to get a horse to a started three year old it’s probably harder to find a buyer interested in making a bigger investment in a horse that looks like it’ll tap out at the lower levels.

[SpicyPRE]

in my observation, that is how barrel racers ride. And that is not someone I want on my horse, baby or not!

[SpicyPRE]

@GraceLikeRain

cull

I could be wrong but I suspect that @Ghazzu doesnt mean sell, when she says cull.

[quietann]

I’ve been very lucky in that the breeders of all 3 horses I’ve owned put a lot of time into the foals, training them in Horse and Human 101. So they’ve been good for all the basics. I had to request, at Feronia’s last barn, that she not be walked with a chain over her nose. (I did use one when she was rehabbing from surgery and very bored!) The expectation was that all horses needed them. I definitely have seen a lot of ill-mannered horses in dressage barns, and I’m not sure why.

[Manni01]

Well I feel lucky that the breeders of the young horses I got which I didn’t breed myself only handled them to move them to a different pasture, to have their feet trimmed and to get their shots… and of course they checked them on a regular basis if they were still alive…
For me that worked extremly well. They had no bad experiences and were eager to interact with people…
many young horses are ruined for life if they were spoiled or lost trust in people because mistakes were made while handling them….
Young horses learn much more if they interact with older horses….

[Ghazzu]

@quietann

I had to request, at Feronia’s last barn, that she not be walked with a chain over her nose. (I did use one when she was rehabbing from surgery and very bored!) The expectation was that all horses needed them.

At one’s “home” barn, that may be a reasonable ask, but I advise my students that when handling patients, it should be the default–if you’re headed to radiology and a llama comes down the aisle, the horse may well unspool, and you can’t put the chain in place in the middle of that.
If the horse is behaving, the chain is a neutral thing.

[CanteringCarrot]

That’s how my last youngster was too. He knew of nothing bad. When I walked into the field where he was with his half siblings, they were all eager to interact, as were the fillies in another field. Handled just enough, IMO.