I’m aware. Not sure why you replied to me.
I read the blog* and the referenced Robert Dover Facebook post (which I had previously stumbled upon before the blog), and found the idea rather fundamentally misaligned with where I’d like to see Dressage-land go.
*(and I generally enjoy her blogs; even this one I can certainly appreciate her perspective!)
The ultra-high-performance dressage sport where the horse’s genetics/movement now play an enormous role, and if that horse hasn’t been expertly professionally developed every step of the way, they will never make it… supporting that holds virtually no appeal to me, personally. On some level, I’m not convinced that being a best-of-the-best ultra-high-performance horse results in any better of a life for the horse than being a valuable-upper-level-but-not-world-class horse. Certainly, we all recognize that a horse with value and training will likely have a better life, with better care and happier endings than a horse with no training/skills/value… but I’m not convinced that trend continues at the very high end. I rather wonder where along the “competitiveness scale” a horse’s welfare hits a maximum? Because I’m not convinced that it’s at the tippy-top.
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Likewise.
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Or me…
LS says
So we need to attract people who “get it,” who understand that it takes time, and who are totally comfortable with the idea of lighting money on fire without any guarantee of either getting it back OR getting the experience they signed up for. That’s a tall order. … … The 3- and 4- and 5-year-old years are just unsexy. The long slog of making a CDI Grand Prix horse is unsexy. It’s hard to sell.
Dressage seems to attract “cerebral” people who enjoy the journey of training a horse. But if all the work on training is eclipsed by bling gaits, then why should anyone care about dressage…a discipline that is supposed to be about training.
I personally find the 2-5 year old years to be the most interesting as those are the years when the horse’s mind is most malleable and adaptable to absorbing training. But if all the blood, sweat and tears we put into training are then beat in the competition arena by some freakish gaits, then I will just stay home.
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I can understand why the breeders are not lining up to supply horses as a partnership or for cheap. A few years ago, on her blog detailing a trip abroad to try out prospects, she noted that US breeders were just not raising the quality that she needed for international competition She may have been correct, but I suppose that did not endear her to those people breeding horses in this country. However I think her latest purchase was domestically bred. But that statement may have left a bad taste in some peoples minds.
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Just saying if you look through the websites in Germany, there are Millions of 3 and 4 year olds from all over in Europe… some of them look quite nice, but it is extremly difficult to find an acceptable PSG horse…. I assume there are people who buy the 4 year olds, develope them up the levels and then sell them through their connections to the US… all the upper level horses offered ( on the sites I look at ) are already in the US…
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I am always amazed when the sport continues to dig itself into a deeper hole. Dover thinks the rest of us should hand over our hard earned cash to fund the hopes and dreams of others who are more talented or promising than us? This is a great display of the current value system where the amateur rider is expected to pay the tab but are really not welcome. Lauren is brash enough to sort of say that an amateur cannot have one of these modern purpose-bred nice young horse creatures or we’ll ruin it; best we hand them over to those who are more gifted and more knowledgeable to train them and bring them along (hey, were you born training horses, or did you learn how to train horses by training them?). I hear this constantly and I wonder if a really good trainer would even encourage a person they thought was a shit rider to buy an elite 4 year old warmblood. I know people who changed their amateur status to professional, not because they are going to train anyone, but to get the pros off their back about how they can do a better job training their horse for them. Some of us amateurs have been riding and training our whole lives and have actually been successful. Maybe not as successful as someone who has more horses to ride in a day, more time and more financial support to focus on their quest, but good enough to ride our own damn horses. I cannot tell you how many times I receive subtle and not so subtle put downs about my skills as part of a targeted strategy to wheedle away my best young horse for them. I was told I could not possibly show my horse in materiale because “the judges want to see horses presented in their best light and an amateur cannot do that”. Even when I have paid for several lessons a week, I was constantly derided and it was boldly suggested that I hand over my horse (who I had trained myself all the way and had just competed at I2 successfully) for the coach to finish at grand prix. Why ever would I go all the way there and put in all that sweat equity to hand over lovely horse to you for GP?
I have also received the short end of the stick for show entries because “those pros trying to qualify for the Markel/Lamplight championships get first dibs”. I and my friends have noticed the dwindling entries from amateurs here, as available show spots go, over and over, to the pros who show their strings at every damn show. Do you know what? Since we do not need to make a living at this, some of us are sick of that and now training our horses by ourselves at home and have given up showing. Those fabulous, purpose bred amazing moving youngsters are quite happy with this lot in life. A horse does not NEED to compete at Lamplight…but USEF/USDF is sure going to miss the amateur dollars if they don’t find a way to include us without insulting us. I am not here to sponsor your dream, sorry. And if that is the price of admission, count me out.
If you want our fancy young horses that bad, make us an offer. If not, please stop insulting us by telling us to buy a certain quality of horse and then telling us we are not good enough to ride them.
I am another of those cerebral dressage riders who enjoys the training journey and uses her head to understand and tailor an approach to my individual horses. I like the entire journey. I am not interested in sponsoring someone and, frankly, it would be ridiculously stupid for me to invest my hard earned money in that rather than, say, the stock market. If you are lucky enough that the expense of sponsorship would not be a sacrifice at all, go for it. But don’t expect them to also be interested in training you to ride.
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This reminds me of the time my best friend/trainer of my lovely first Arab, Tiger, was discussing him with Renate Lansburgh, who had seen him at several shows and clinics.
Karen happened to remark to Renate that I had been foxhunting Tiger recently, and she sighed, and said something to the effect that he was such a lovely and talented horse that it was a shame he didn’t belong to a more serious dressage rider.
Karen acknowledged that he’d likely have done well in the local dressage scene at the time, but pointed out that, in her opnion–and she knew Tiger very well, having started him under saddle–hat he was likely happier blasting around in the woods and piddling about at training and 1st with me than he would have been with a more “serious” rider.
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Great post, @Cowgirl. I completely agree.
A few other things -
How about the expectation not be GP by 8? How about we focus on longevity, especially for breeding stallions. The pressure to push horses quickly through the levels often leads to bad things - sour/burnt out/injured horses and a culture of drugging being one of them. How many breeding stallions today are able to perform at GP without ridiculous maintenance and drugs?
Also, why don’t we re-evaluate what it is we define as “competitive?” If the pool of potential “competitive” horses is so small, maybe we should evaluate why. Perhaps we have created too much emphasis and focus on horses who move exactly a certain way and we have lost the appreciate for the art of dressage and the fact that it can be applied to any horse. It seems our competitive dressage horses are no longer even doing well executed dressage and are a bunch of leg flingers poorly performing the movements. Why do I want to buy into that?
Someone mentioned welfare for highly competitive dressage horses - I absolutely agree. I would much rather send my beloved horses who I’ve loved and raised since hitting the ground to a talented amateur who is going to take their time, make this a life long commitment and treat the horse like a horse instead of a pro who is going to drill the horse, treat them as dispensable, not turn them out, etc. I know not all breeders feel this way and are more than happy to send horses to any pro as a way to endorse their program but I am personally less likely to contribute to the system because of welfare concerns.
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This is how I got my Hanoverian…bred in Germany, imported in utero by breeder. I was competing to buy the horse against a “name” rider who had a…shall we say…aggressive style of riding. The seller decided she wanted the horse to go to me.
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That is the problem when showing is the goal. It drives the timetable instead of the horse’s development. I was telling a friend that I was amazed that all these young horses can campaign so much while their teeth are coming in and they go through growth spurts and they lose their balance again.
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I don’t know what area of the country you are in, but I can tell you on the east coast the amateurs are the bread and butter of dressage shows. Without amateurs the shows for all intents and purpose wouldn’t exist, couldn’t exist.
There is a show in Region One that is geared to amateurs, a kind of team approach, at the lower levels. It’s been very popular.
Region One used to have a yearly team competition at Gladstone between dressage teams from various GMO’s including from Region 8. Lots of amateurs and professionals competing on teams and even included a First Level derby (top 4 riders switch horses) and ride the German equivalent test of First Level. The year I rode in it and was in the derby, all of us were amateurs at that time.
I don’t agree with Dover…but I have seen on the eventing side, some very successful syndicates made up of a group of amateurs owning one horse ridden and trained by a professional. It’s a bit like owning a share in a race horse: the risk is lowered over the number of owners. And these owners love to go to Rolex and Maryland and watch “their” horse compete in big events…or in the case of one particular syndicate: go to the Olympics.
I think Alice Tarjan has pretty well proved that an amateur can train and take a horse all the way to the World Cup (and now Olympics with Marcus).
USEF/USDF have divisions just for amateurs, as does the FEI at CDI’s. So I think there is an effort to support amateurs, ie level playing field.
I personally know plenty of professionals that don’t try to take horses away from amateurs and instead focus on helping the amateurs achieve what ever goals they have, even if it’s simply riding better at home.
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I believe that she has some 6th sense when it comes to looking at very young horses. And then patience and ability to adapt her training process to the individual horse. Truly amazing woman. Just a note (in reference to the “home grown” focus of the blog), in some interview I read she did say most of her horses come from Europe…so not technically home grown.
Re the syndicate idea, it is interesting, and based on my limited knowledge, more common in other equine sports than in dressage. Salvino started as a syndicate and then was bought out by one of the syndicate members. I wonder how the ongoing process works with respect to things like show schedule/frequency, medical care decisions, travel costs, etc. Do the members vote, or agree on day 1 that one person makes decisions, etc.
Why on Earth would you put up with that? In my 40+ years of teaching and training, I would NEVER “deride” a student. Granted, I’m no BNT with Olympic aspirations, but even if I was…
I agree with you that the amateurs are nearly always put on the back burner by USEF, which is and always will be a mistake.
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Just as a side note, the results of a GB national survey to locate OTTBs and find out what they are doing in their second career was published just this week. 11% of the horses were doing dressage, actually the largest percentage of any one discipline. The Retraining of Racehorses (RoR) charity runs an excellent programme of education, training and it also supports multiple classes at shows in many disciplines. Dressage is their fastest growing section. Cheaper horses, no exaggerated gaits, second job, but they’ve still got the ability.
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I put up with it for a little over a year and then moved. I have my own place now and am not dependent on boarding anymore (which, in my area, is primarily with a training requirement.)
Region 1 sounds wonderful! We have a different attitude here and limited show spots. Our shows are often limited to two rings and we get entries from the entire region (other states). Many, if not all, of the shows do not have enough stabling. Personally, I think that there should be a rule that you cannot buy a tack stall if the stabling is needed for horses. But the pros need their tack stalls. Our shows fill within 15 minutes of opening and if there are multiple people entered in qualifying classes, they get the dibs. Our lower level and amateur division classes are very small now. There is now some attempt to make it better because now they have a problem attracting volunteers, even with a volunteer requirement for those trying to qualify for awards.
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The lack of people interested in dealing with the young horse antics - and the chaos of young horse classes - was commented on at DAL this weekend by a trainer who has horse is one of these aforementioned classes. The majority in the classes were ridden by pros or YR children of pros. It is probably a biased sample since YH classes attract a certain horse and owner but still, it takes a particular type to be able to work through the ride, especially when babies don’t want to go in the ring, keep their feet near the ground, want nothing to do with the judges booth, etc.
My trainer and I have discussed that if I buy a young horse next, if we want to start it ourselves or we send it to my current mare’s previous owner. I can sit a buck, a hop, a light front end and I’ve seen my trainer do the same while starting babies but it’s weighing what makes the most sense physically, financially, and with the time we have. My mare was owned by a colt starter who also happens to be an eventer with a good seat. There is an excellent picture of my mare bucking - on her second or third ride - hard enough that her hind feet were level with the top of the round pen, and the trainer is sitting nice and balanced in the saddle. I lucked into a well-adjusted horse who could ground tie, self-load, and is largely unbothered by most things in life simply because the starter just didn’t have enough time for her own horses. There’s a lot to be said for someone who specializes in starting babies but also knows what they’re going to be asked to do later on down the line.
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This has been mentioned before, but bears mentioning again. The situation you describe is not to be expected, and frankly I would question someone that thinks it is normal. Starting under saddle should be a non event with no bucking or nonsense. It’s possible (and IMO necessary) to do it in a way where there is zero drama.
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Agree 
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