Lunging styles vent

[Equkelly]

@Alterration

Returning to the trailer, these are all similar trailers and I had not brought a trailer that he had ever seen. There was no reason for him to fear this trailer any more or less than any of the previous trailers. I should add that from the moment I got this horse, I never had any issue getting him on any trailer.

The trailer itself doesn’t matter at all. If I’m boarding an airplane and it all of a sudden becomes clear that the pilot doesn’t know how to fly airplanes… I’m not boarding. I don’t trust that the person whose job is to keep me safe is going to do that

@Alterration

I did not teach him trailer loading, and I’m just not magical

It doesn’t matter. Most of the time if you have a horse that is already relaxed and trusts you, you don’t have to “teach” them how to load into a trailer. It’s the people who try to load a horse that neither trusts them or is relaxed with them that all of a sudden have an issue getting the horse to load.

@Alterration

So, let’s go back to his longing behavior. Same horse. When longed for the first time after a long time off, he kicks at me, the same handler

Why’d he kick at you?

@Alterration

I growl, and tap him with the whip. I don’t beat him.

So you’ve essentially just told him “I don’t care if you’re uncomfortable and Im going to carry on ignoring whatever issue you have.

@Alterration

. I doubt that my tap with the whip is enough to overcome pain (and he’s never been truly beaten with a longe whip).

You are really underestimating how much horses will learn to just deal with the pain. It’s an evolutionary trait. In the wild, if they’re gimpy they get picked off by the lion so most of the time they will just continue on as if everything is fine in order to survive.

@Alterration

Next longing session, even if it’s quite a few days later, he does NOT exhibit this behavior.

Well yea because you yelled at him for trying to tell you something. This is like when parents discipline their child for crying. Big whoop if you stoped the crying, but whatever your kid was crying about didn’t get solved. They just learned that they can’t do anything, that’s called “learned helplessness”. It’s not hard to make the behavior stop. Anyone can do that, but if you make them stop then you never know what the issue is.

@Alterration

Horse number two was an experienced Morgan lesson horse. Gave many lessons to people of all ages. To beginners he would trot around happily. Canter away, flopping at the reins, pulling on his mouth, and he was just fine. For an advanced rider, he was also perfect. For an intermediate rider who was beyond the flopping canter stage but had not yet learned inside leg to outside rein, he would park himself in the corner of the ring and refuse to move until they had asked for the turn correctly.

There can be so many reasons for that. Maybe the intermediate kids don’t know what contact is and they just pull on the horse’s face all day, maybe the intermediate lessons the horse is exerting more energy, who knows. But if you are believing that this horse really just didn’t respect the intermediate kids due to their riding ability, I’m sorry that is ridiculous.

@Alterration

Now, for a small element of woo, I suffer from a condition called Bradycardia in which my heart beats slowly. I’ve often wondered whether there are some horses who find this lack of intensity comforting, even as I react predictably like a “normal” trainer. I tend to calm reactive horses, even when I’m not feeling so very calm myself, but it’s because my heart rate (unless I’m truly having a panic attack, which hasn’t happened in awhile) is very slow even when I’m nervous.

Sure, could be. They dont like fast, quick movements. Not sure what the point is there though.

@Alterration

A sideline, whether you call it trust or you call it respect really honestly doesn’t matter. I’m not sure that “trust” is any less of a human emotion than “respect”. What it means is that the horse behaves differently for one than for another

It is a big difference though. Horses have to “trust” each other in the wild that everyone’s going to be on the lookout for lions. It’s not even really so much about “trust” it’s more that they can relax when they know everyone else has a heightened sense of awareness. “Attunement” is probably a better word. “Respect” however doesn’t exist in herd dynamics. We used to think it was but dominance theory had been widely debunked amongst equine behaviorists. We used to think there was just one “herd leader” or “alpha and all the other horses respected him or her and that was that. Since then, we’ve learned that horses don’t have an “alpha” like wolves or pack animals do. Horse herd dynamics are a little more complicated. Horse A has a relationship to horse B, C, and D. And then horse B also has a relationship to horse C and D, and then horse C and D also have a relationship. There’s no one horse that’s the boss and tells everyone else to do. It’s just about who will win resources between 2 horses.

[Alterration]

You’re missing the point about the Morgan, pretty bigly.

He was perfect for the beginners, who flopped and pulled. He was perfect for the advanced riders, who rode correctly. He stood in the corner until the intermediates could figure out how to ride correctly.

I don’t have an explanation for it. I taught many riders on him as did the trainer before I ended up with him. I don’t think he had any sort of “cunning”. Something definitely told him they were done with being coddled. Perhaps the same thing that allows dogs to coddle puppies and beat them up when they grow older. I’m unsure, it was wild.

And no, if you think the horse who walks through veterinarians and assistants (and me) when he anticipates pain quits exhibiting pain because I yelled at him for it…that isn’t logical by any stretch of the imagination, equine or otherwise.

[Equkelly]

@Alterration

I cannot respect someone that I do not trust. Nor can I trust someone that I do not respect. For me, these two words are interchangeable. Trust, respect, and “ease of communication” are all leadership qualities, as are body language, predictability, tone of voice, and “energy” or lack thereof (getting into the woo again, sorry).

I see what you’re saying but if we’re talking about “respect” that means that we’re also implying that horses can be “disrespectful”. When I think of “disrespectfulness” I think of bratty 13 year olds just being jerks to the substitute teacher. Horses don’t have that mindset though. They’re just going to do what makes them feel safe, comfortable, and what makes them have access to resources.

@Alterration

My horse follows me because he trusts in my leadership. He trusts that I will keep him safe. And he respects that when I tell him to do something different than his own instincts tell him to do, that it’s probably a good idea to follow. Does he think of it in those terms? No. But this is the behavior he exhibits. Does he sit at night and think “man, I trust that weird brunette”? No, he doesn’t.

Not really though, it’s got nothing to do with how he sees YOU it’s just got to do with how he sees your relationship. In his case, he knows doing what you say is in his best interest, so that’s what he does.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

It is a big difference though. Horses have to “trust” each other in the wild that everyone’s going to be on the lookout for lions. It’s not even really so much about “trust” it’s more that they can relax when they know everyone else has a heightened sense of awareness.

Ahh but often the horse doesn’t trust the person with a heightened sense of awareness, so this isn’t quite right either. In fact, for a person who is constantly looking out for lions on the horse’s behalf the horse starts to see more potential lions.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

Not really though, it’s got nothing to do with how he sees YOU it’s just got to do with how he sees your relationship. In his case, he knows doing what you say is in his best interest, so that’s what he does.

How is this different? Most people don’t see “us” either, they see us through the lens of their relationship.

Now I think you’re arguing just to argue.

[Equkelly]

@Alterration

And no, if you think the horse who walks through veterinarians and assistants (and me) when he anticipates pain quits exhibiting pain because I yelled at him for it…that isn’t logical by any stretch of the imagination, equine or otherwise.

Sure it is. That’s literally learned helplessness. Which for the record especially when it comes to vets and farriers, absolutely has a place. At a certain point, I don’t care if your leg hurts and you don’t like it, I’m changing your bandage and you can’t plow me over. Or I don’t care if you dislike needles, you’re getting sticked either way. In those situations I’m all about the “suck it up buttercup” approach. But for lunging, or even trailering (unless I’m trying to flee in an emergency) then no I’m not going to punish them for a negative response like that. I could, and get the behavior to stop if I felt like it but I want my horse to be able to tell me when somethings wrong and I want them to know I’ll listen.

@Alterration

don’t have an explanation for it. I taught many riders on him as did the trainer before I ended up with him. I don’t think he had any sort of “cunning”. Something definitely told him they were done with being coddled. Perhaps the same thing that allows dogs to coddle puppies and beat them up when they grow older. I’m unsure, it was wild.

Just because you don’t have an explanation, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. I don’t have an explanation either because I wasn’t there so I can’t say for sure what’s going on but I still think you are completely anthropomorphizing the horse here.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

I see what you’re saying but if we’re talking about “respect” that means that we’re also implying that horses can be “disrespectful”. When I think of “disrespectfulness” I think of bratty 13 year olds just being jerks to the substitute teacher. Horses don’t have that mindset though.

Neither do 13 year old humans. Not generally speaking. But that’s probably a larger conversation.

I don’t think of horses as intentionally disrespectful. I also don’t think of disrespect as the opposite of respect any more than I I think hate is the opposite of love. Indifference is.

Even if I use the word “respect” to describe the “intently listening and trusting” relationship. When a horse doesn’t have “respect” for the human I mean exactly that. They don’t have that relationship. And though there are horses that “trust more easily than others” I believe that the responsibility for earning that trust and respect is ours.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

But for lunging, or even trailering (unless I’m trying to flee in an emergency) then no I’m not going to punish them for a negative response like that. I could, and get the behavior to stop if I felt like it but I want my horse to be able to tell me when somethings wrong and I want them to know I’ll listen.

Oh yes of course. In this case though there was absolutely nothing wrong. Which is why the horse went through every level of testing I could throw at him to figure out why the first trot resulted in a dramatic reaction. Believe me, I questioned myself on this one.

For the vets, he will NOT do learned helplessness. He will continue to plow them over until he is sedated. Could it be a memory of pain from before I even owned him? Sure. Could be. But that’s what makes me question the “I can bully him out of pain with a growl and a tap”. I don’t believe that’s possible for this particular horse.

Now my other horse, I can look at him cross eyed and he’ll say ma’am yes ma’am with one leg hanging off his body (obviously, I’m exaggerating). Not this one.

And no, I’m not attributing anything human to my Morgan’s behavior. It is what I observed over 10 years of working with him and teaching lessons on him. It doesn’t even fall into any sort of “respect” conversation, and I forget at this point why I brought him up except to point out that there are horses who do not follow the simplistic notion of comfort vs not comfort. What he was doing is as baffling to me as it is to you.

[Equkelly]

@Alterration

Neither do 13 year old humans. Not generally speaking. But that’s probably a larger conversation.

Agreed but it’s still the idea is that disrespect implies it’s something about you personally that they either respect or disrespect.

I still think respect is a very poor way to describe a healthy horse/human relationship because it’s not really respect. They can’t respect because it’s a complex emotion. They can feel safe and secure and therefore calmer and therefore more obedient but they don’t respect us like an employee respects their boss. There’s totally different driving factors at play.

Also when I think about the people I come across that I have no respect for, it’s something about them personally that makes me not respect them. Like if I walk into a store and I see a guy wearing a red MAGA hat and a confederate flag t shirt, I immediately lose any and all respect for that guy because of who he is as a person and I do not respect his values. Horses just don’t think like that. They just don’t have that cognitive capability that we do.

Once you get that, I think it makes you a better horse person. 10 years ago if a horse kicked at me while i ws lunging it I would have told you it was due to the horse being “disrespectful”. I’ve since, done a little more research, had some better teachers, and got rethought things and now if a horse does that, I want to know WHY. “Being disrespectful” is a circular logic. Why did he kick at you? “Because he’s disrespectful.” Ok well “Why is he disrespectful?” Because he kicked at you! It doesn’t answer anything. We tell ourselves that so we can make sense of it in our minds but when we do that we miss out on whatever is really bugging the horse.

[Equkelly]

@Alterration

In this case though there was absolutely nothing wrong

You don’t know that. Did you train him to speak English and verbalize his comfort level? Because that’s the only way you can tell if a horse is actually “totally fine.”

@Alterration

For the vets, he will NOT do learned helplessness. He will continue to plow them over until he is sedated. Could it be a memory of pain from before I even owned him? Sure. Could be. But that’s what makes me question the “I can bully him out of pain with a growl and a tap”. I don’t believe that’s possible for this particular horse.

It’s not that black and white though. I can bully my horse out of dancing around while I’m trying to change a bandage if i need to. Eventually she’ll give up and let me do it. I cannot however bully this horse into a dental exam. She has TMJ issues, it’s extremely painful. If you go for her mouth she will fight for her life to have you not mess with it because it really hurts her to keep her mouth open in the speculum even with sedation. They’re just going to do what’s easiest.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

I still think respect is a very poor way to describe a healthy horse/human relationship because it’s not really respect. They can’t respect because it’s a complex emotion. They can feel safe and secure and therefore calmer and therefore more obedient but they don’t respect us like an employee respects their boss. There’s totally different driving factors at play.

Also when I think about the people I come across that I have no respect for, it’s something about them personally that makes me not respect them. Like if I walk into a store and I see a guy wearing a red MAGA hat and a confederate flag t shirt, I immediately lose any and all respect for that guy because of who he is as a person and I do not respect his values. Horses just don’t think like that. They just don’t have that cognitive capability that we do.

And I think therein lies the difference between what we are describing. I don’t think a horse looks at me and says “wow I really don’t like her haircut and what is she wearing on her feet?” and decides that I’m not worth respecting. But I do think that if I follow a milquetoast way of leading, an untrustworthy way of leading, then at best they’ll roll their eyes and ignore me and at worst they’ll decide I’m the one that is in the way of whatever they want (to put it more into your terms).

You’re using different signals than the horse is, but that lack of respect for the MAGA/racist isn’t just based on his values in the abstract, though that’s a shortcut for you (and many other humans). It is a cueing about the trustworthiness of that particular individual and I would argue that we are not as evolved as we like to think we are when we encounter those cues.

To flip it around, I think we’re a lot more like horses (and other animals, both prey and predator alike) than we’d like to admit and we use our big ol’ prefrontal cortex to justify and rationalize our sense of trust/distrust/in-group/out-group. It’s the same “thing” it’s just got different manifestations. If different words float your boat, that’s fine.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

It’s not that black and white though. I can bully my horse out of dancing around while I’m trying to change a bandage if i need to. Eventually she’ll give up and let me do it. I cannot however bully this horse into a dental exam. She has TMJ issues, it’s extremely painful. If you go for her mouth she will fight for her life to have you not mess with it because it really hurts her to keep her mouth open in the speculum even with sedation. They’re just going to do what’s easiest.

Ok, so plowing through the vet when he was putting the gel on for shockwave therapy was what now?

And man, I must have an awfully powerful growl in order to bully him so easily. Wish it would work for him to stand still when he has other issues. It just doesn’t.

No, he couldn’t speak, you are correct, and maybe he’s dealing with some latent pain that imaging everything under the sun, getting him chiropracted and fascia-massaged, and the bute test, and MRI and ulcer medicated and (the list goes on) didn’t catch. I’m still finding that pretty darned unlikely.

[Equkelly]

If you really want to believe in 30 year old training ideas then go for it but horses aren’t capable of complex thought. We anthropomorphize because we need to put things into human terms for us to get it, but that’s just hot how horses are hardwired.

Here’s an article I really like talking about “respect” and “disrespect” and the perspectives of a few trainers. It’s a good read for anyone that followed this discussion:

Understanding Your Horse's Brain - Horse Illustrated

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

If you really want to believe in 30 year old training ideas then go for it but horses aren’t capable of complex thought. We anthropomorphize because we need to put things into human terms for us to get it, but that’s just hot how horses are hardwired.

Here’s an article I really like talking about “respect” and “disrespect” and the perspectives of a few trainers. It’s a good read for anyone that followed this discussion:

Because I argued that my horse’s response wasn’t pain related you’ve batched me in here. I think you’re not listening at all.

Once again, we are arguing from very different points of reference. Though I am quite familiar with natural horsemanship, I did not start out with that “respect” model as a model. I didn’t do “join up” and I never longed a horse behind my back. I don’t have that language and never adopted it.

Nor did I side with trainers that bullied and coerced. I wasn’t into “smack him to get him over the fence” nor was I keen on rough treatment of any sort. My first horse suffered from chronic issues that did explain some behavior that people ignored and dismissed. I didn’t forget that.

When I use anthropomorphic language to describe a behavior it’s because not using it makes one sound like a pedantic zealot, not an enlightened trainer. It’s also hard to describe equine behavior without it. It is a common way of describing a situation, and it doesn’t mean I’m actually believing that my horse sees my shirt and thinks I’m a hippy nor that schnookums is upset because he didn’t get his treat yesterday nor that devil-pony is a brat because he kicked the kid. Although my other horse does indeed snap my bra and zip and unzip my zippers.

We use shortcuts in language but good horsemen investigate the reasons for behavior and have for a very very long time. Most of us have exhausted resources on a horse or two in our lifetimes that for whatever reason is unreachable. If you’re lucky, like I am, to have gotten many many reject retraining projects, you learn that yes, pain is behind many of these stories but not all. Sometimes it’s the owner who never established any boundaries or a memory of being crashed through a fence by a rough rider (10 riders ago), a problem with sight, or an insecure horse who doesn’t know how to horse property due to being raised in an unnatural environment who struggles socially and does not react as you would expect an ordinary socialized horse to do. Sometimes it’s a foal who has been orphaned and sometimes it’s a horse who has had a brain “accident” of some ilk. Sometimes it really is breeding.

I say the best thing I’ve learned with my years with horses is that thinking you know it all is the key to failure fast. Being stuck in the “new way” isn’t any better than being stuck in the old. I’ve indicated numerous times that there is equine behavior that fits into neither model (oh, that’s why I brought up the Morgan) and that I think we still have a long way to go before we fully understand equine behavior.

[Sleipnir]

Regarding the alpha leader theory in hierarchy of pack animals, especially, wolves - it was debunked by the very scientist who did the research on wolves. Even they don’t have an alpha and instead rely on complex family ties and a fluid hierarchy.

Wolf packs don’t actually have alpha males and alpha females, the idea is...

[alibi_18]

What @Sleipnir said.

And to @Equkelly and @Alterration; I believe it’s time for you guys to go outside and ride.

[Humbugs]

I’m confused…which direction does he want the horse to go in? I feel sorry for the horse

[Sleipnir]

Confused? Wait til you watch this - be sure to watch at least to 1:00! Another golden nugget of training expertise.

How to Fix Horse Pulling Away While Lunging - Tips from Pat Parelli

[Scribbler]

So a horse that is longeing quietly if counter bent gets razzed up so he is actually freaking and bolting then gets disciplined for it.

Most green horses counterbend at canter. You have to slowly teach them to bend.

[Willesdon]

@Sleipnir

Confused?.. Another golden nugget of training expertise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIpD1vzrzr4

First, teach the human how to do their job then ask the horse to do their bit. A tolerant horse and utterly incompetent human.