Lunging styles vent

Let’s think of it this way.

Horse A is in a pasture with Horse B. Horse A is the dominant horse. Horse B yields EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is it because Horse B is…what, just scared? No, Horse B knows that Horse A is dominant and will bite him to make him move. Does horse B have to get bitten every time? No. Horse B has been bitten enough times that Horse A even just tilting in his general direction makes him scamper off.

For most of us, we call this “respect”. Horse B “respects” horse A’s authority. Does Horse B challenge horse A? Oh heck no. Horse B follows Horse A.

Is it like I have “respect” in an abstract sense? No, of course not. Not like one uses “respect for the flag” or…heck, I’ve got nothing else in this moment. But we do need a word for it, and respect is the closest thing we’ve got.

So anyway, horse B respects horse A. Horse A doesn’t give two figs about horse B.

Horse B might challenge horse C. Some horse B’s may re-challenge horse A when the herd changes or some other element of the “normal” situation changes.

Do I think horse B thinks of humans as horse A? No. I don’t think that, I do think they are smart enough to know the difference between us and a horse. But I know this is their dynamic, and they can often relate to us with this SAME dynamic.

And I’m not talking NH BS “Clinton Anderson run 'em in a circle and make 'em respect you”.

But I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you $50 if you can show me a person that lets their horse move them around and can successfully get that horse to do what they want them to do.

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I get to watch horses in attended turnout a lot, as well as interacting over paddock fences and in pasture. My observation is that horses continually test each other for where they stand in the herd hierarchy. It can be very subtle. Invade the space by half an inch, get a pinned ear, back off. My observation is that they all do this to each other quite often, maybe daily. It’s so subtle no one gets bitten or kicked, most of the time. But it’s up for constant negotiation. That’s why horses can develop “bad habits” so fast if the handler gets sloppy. It’s why you need clear coherent body language and attention from the moment you enter the barn. Every day you are telling the horse “yup, I’m still in the game.”

My mare seems to think it’s very amusing to pin her ears and shake her head when my back is turned. She is very interested in the fact that I can’t see behind myself like any normal horse. I will spin around and her ears will be up and she will be smiling. Turn my back and she is flipping me the bird again. People will comment on this, I will spin around, and she is smiling at me. Perhaps I just need to kick backwards one day when she’s doing this. Anyhow, I do think she is trying to figure out exactly what I can notice. And it reminds me why I never wanted to teach middle school kids :).

Now we sometimes muscle horses through things while they are showing confrontational body language. I’m not sure what they make of that. They know they are challenging us, but we don’t shut down the actual challenge, we just carry on.

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Horse B doesn’t want to get bitten or kicked that’s why he moves. Also horse A just wants to preserve his resource whether it’s shelter, or food or whatever. Both horses are just acting in self preservation. It’s got nothing to do with respect or disrespect. Neither walk away from the other respecting each other or disrespecting each other more. Horse A gets the resource, horse B doesn’t get kicked.

Horse A doesn’t have authority over horse B. Horse A just cares about resources. They do not care what Horse B does otherwise. It’s kind of the same way I don’t have any authority over a seagull trying to eat my sandwich at the beach. I chase it away, that’s that. The seagull doesn’t fly away with some new profound respect for me.

This idea that horses can just “respect you” or “disrespect you” is completely fictional. If a pony is diving for grass when a small child is leading it, it’s not because the pony “disrespects” the child. The pony just knows that, eating the grass is in his best interest. Then when the child’s trainer comes to take the pony, the pony realizes not diving for grass is now in the pony’s best interest. They don’t “respect” or “disrespect” the trainer or the child, it’s still self preservation. This idea that we’re so great and horses respect us because we have 2 legs and a heartbeat is just so egocentric. They don’t respect us because they can’t process that emotion. They do what we ask them (for the most part) because we’ve conditioned them to understand that doing what we ask, is in their best interest.

This respect/ dominance thing is how we used to think of equine behavior 20 or 30 years ago when “dominance theory” was very popular (same in the dog training world too) but it has since been debunked time and time again.

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[quote=“Scribbler, post:102, topic:761083”]
I get to watch horses in attended turnout a lot, as well as interacting over paddock fences and in pasture. My observation is that horses continually test each other for where they stand in the herd hierarchy. It can be very subtle. Invade the space by half an inch, get a pinned ear, back off. My observation is that they all do this to each other quite often, maybe daily. It’s so subtle no one gets bitten or kicked, most of the time. But it’s up for constant negotiation. That’s why horses can develop “bad habits” so fast if the handler gets sloppy. It’s why you need clear coherent body language and attention from the moment you enter the barn. Every day you are telling the horse “yup, I’m still in the game.”[/quote]

This is a good way to describe what I’m trying to explain. When this particular horse has time off, all the myriad of interactions aren’t enough to really notice he’s challenging anyone (although when he spent time with a beginner for a year, his leading really went to hell in a hand-basket). When I went to pick him up, he tried to bowl me over, and I backed him 5 feet and he led out like a lamb. Beginner was amazed. He also jumped right on the trailer and he’d been a hellion for them requiring treats and whips to get him on board. Maybe it’s his hocks. ROFL.

[quote=“Scribbler, post:102, topic:761083”]
My mare seems to think it’s very amusing to pin her ears and shake her head when my back is turned. She is very interested in the fact that I can’t see behind myself like any normal horse. I will spin around and her ears will be up and she will be smiling. Turn my back and she is flipping me the bird again. People will comment on this, I will spin around, and she is smiling at me. Perhaps I just need to kick backwards one day when she’s doing this. Anyhow, I do think she is trying to figure out exactly what I can notice. And it reminds me why I never wanted to teach middle school kids :).[/quote]

That’s hilarious. Love it.

I am responsible for the care of 20 horses at the moment. All 20 I can “herd in” with little difficulty (they don’t all get led…it’s a long story), but there are three (in separate pastures) who will snake head and pin ears as they pass by. These horses are the dominant ones among their small group. I’m pretty sure it has nothing to do with pain.

Can you describe what you mean here? I can’t imagine muscling a horse through a challenge, but maybe I’m missing something. I can’t really imagine muscling a horse through much.

Why would you punish a horse for pinning its ears? Their body language is very valuable information. If they’re that unhappy about something, I need to know…

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I agree with you that horses don’t process emotions in the same manner as or in as great a number as humans. However, they have a prefrontal cortex. It’s smaller than that of a human or primate, but they do have one. They likely have a better associative memory than humans because of their smaller pre-frontal cortex.

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I’d love to hear your explanation for this. This same horse spent a year with a beginner on lease. He was incredibly rude on the ground. When I went to pick him up, he tried to bowl me over, and I backed him 5 feet and he led out like a lamb. No beatings. No threats. Literally backed him up 5 steps. Beginner was amazed. This same interaction does not work for anyone else.

He also, in the same interaction, jumped right on the trailer and he’d been a hellion for them requiring treats and whips to get him on board. He’d given their trainer fits. He’d given MULTIPLE trainers fits.

I had not seen the horse in a year. I had not handled the horse in a year. I have never beaten this horse. People HAVE beaten on this horse and he’ll walk right through you. I’ve seen it at the vet’s office when handlers were trying to get him to stand still for shockwave.

Who has any idea that “we’re so great”? You’re ascribing a lot of things to my statements that I’ve never even remotely said.

And I am not talking about dominance theory in dogs. Totally different.

Good heavens.

So, the options…he’s afraid of me? Nope, he wouldn’t come galloping over in the pasture if he were. Nor would he follow me around when I’m cleaning the paddock like he does. I’m fun? I can’t be more fun than the beginners because I’m not an automatic treat dispensing machine.

I’m definitely not magical. I’m pretty sure I don’t smell different than most humans. And I haven’t always been his full time caregiver. Am I safe and consistent? I’d like to think I’m a good leader.

We use human words as a shorthand for things all the time. It doesn’t mean that we actually think the horse is processing in the same way.

I’d love to know your assessment of the horse who stood in the corner, described above. Your assessment fails to acknowledge that for the beginner the horse worked just as hard with potentially more pain from a lack of balance (in a physical sense) as for the intermediate rider, and yet it is for the intermediate rider that he would not go unless asked properly. The simple pain-avoidance theory would indicate that the horse would stand in the corner for the beginner and improve for the intermediate rider and yet he did not. It did not vary based on the age or size of the rider.

So please, tell me what either horse is actually doing. Because your explanation does not make sense in either of these cases.

Also - I find most equine research woefully incomplete. I’ve read the studies, they are often quite flawed.

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Ok? Horses aren’t “rude” like humans are. Horses just do what’s easiest for them. For example, if a horse feels more comfortable walking on top of their handler and the handler doesn’t say otherwise, that’s what they’re going to do. Foals for this to their moms as well, they lean on them and get too close, and run into them because that’s what makes them feel comfortable and they haven’t been told yet that they can’t do that.

Horses don’t “give fits”. There’s plenty of reasons horses don’t want to get on a trailer. It’s usually a fear response but they don’t ever decide I’m just going to be an a** and refuse to get on that trailer for no reason at all.

I agree that he’s not afraid of you and I’d also safely bet that he didn’t think there’d be a treat involved. He got on that trailer because he trusts you. He knows you’re someone that is probably able to read is subtle body language and pick of on fears and anxieties whereas beginners are not. Safe horses are horses that feel safe.

In the wild, horses depend on reading each others body language and stress indicators. If they prick their ears up and lift their head that’s horse language for “guys I’m worried there’s a lion in that bush”. Then every other horse does the same. They need to feel heard and they need to know that in the event of a lion attack, you are going to listen and they need to know that you are a good ally to have in the event things get scary.

Horses aren’t bad for beginners because they disrespect them and just respect experienced people. 1) the horse is just going to do what’s easiest for the horse and more importantly 2) they know exactly when they are and are not in capable hands and when they are not in capable hands that makes them very anxious. That horse got on the trailer for you because he trusts you to keep him safe not because he respects you.

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@Equkelly

About kicking backwards, I was joking. The horse is messing with me to see if I can see her challenging behavior behind my back. When I whirl around she smiles.if I kicked backwards just like another horse with almost 360 degree vision she might conclude I could actually see her. Like mothers who convince their toddlers they know everything they do.

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@Alterration

About muscling horses around, a very clear example might be putting a stud chain on a track TB who would otherwise run the handler over, just to get him from point A to point B.

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Horse motives.

For several years I was putting my main mare on pasture every fall with a fairly stable herd of 4 or 5. Main mare was a boss mare for a while but gradually lost status.

A couple of years ago the herd was Boss Mare, Enforcer, and Sweet Girl.

We added my mare to the mix. When I went to visit, Boss Mare would not let my mare come up to greet me until Boss Mare checked me out. She would then let me go see my mare and not interfere because I was the Human. I also did shoo the others away so I could groom and talk to my mare.

So my mare thought she had protection. She got a bit cocky. While following me, she pinned her ears at Sweet Girl, who was a lanky submissive OTTB. And suddenly Boss Mare was right there glaring. Because Sweet Girl was under her protection.

Sweet Girl came off the field that winter. The next fall Boss Mare and Enforcer were there with my mare who was still bottom of the hierarchy. Then Boss Mare and my mare went off the field into outside board at the barn when winter hit. Boss Mare and my mare became best best friends. My mare obeyed her and I could use her to help tame Boss Mare who was getting a bit feral. When they met up with Sweet Girl who had been at the barn for the past year they both went at her teeth barred and ran her off.

So it’s not just about resource guarding.

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I’m not who you were addressing, but I’ll offer my theory on this: Horses gravitate towards humans whose company is the most comfortable, easy, and pleasant for the horse. The part that’s confusing for humans because it is illogical to us? 9 times out of 10, that comfortable, easy, pleasant person IS NOT THE BEGINNER! Instead, it is actually the more advanced handler or rider the horse prefers. Because those folks have developed the ability to communicate with the horse in a clear, consistent, and fair manner & the “feel” necessary to know when they’re asking for too much/something beyond the horse’s ability. To the horse, the latter type of person can be relied upon to behave in a consistent, predictable fashion.

My sense as someone with training in anatomy & who coaches healthy biomechanics is that many folks underestimate how asymmetrical our muscles are & how much that asymmetry can blur our cues to the horse. Becky Beginner asks the horse to go forward & he moves laterally instead because he felt her left leg more strongly and she got thrown off balance & scared & over corrected by jerking on his mouth and pony club kicking. That’s not comfortable, easy or pleasant for the horse. To him, he offered an honest, correct response to her cue & got abused for it. If it happens more than a couple times, the horse’s well-attuned associative memory is going to make the association that Becky is unpredictable, volatile, and unfair. And the horse will probably ramp up his physical response as time goes on.

Another phenomenon I’ve seen time and again on a group for nervous riders is people asking too much of the horse: asking a 3yo horse to be able to give confidence to the rider while faced with a question the horse never dreamed existed (like hacking on a motorway) ; or otherwise expecting him to behave as a human & punishing him when he’s unable to uphold his end of their covert contract & offer emotional support. Yeah, I’m sure there’s a gray area inhabited by some outlier horses. But for the most part? These horses are exhibiting undesirable behavior because they’re confused, scared sh-tless, and, yes, a little pissed at being on the receiving end of utterly baffling, unpredictable human behavior.

The pony that bowls the kid over to get to grass but stands like butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth for the adult trainer? He’s getting fancy & combining his desire for comfort & the path of least resistance with his associative memories, imo. Most ittle kids can’t/don’t communicate clear & consistent expectations to horses. The pony knows from past experience little kids are easy to bowl over & not much of any consequence happens to deter you from doing so. Pony wants grass. Pony goes to grass. Never mind that screaming banshee on the other end of the lead. He knows that things don’t usually go that way with adult trainer, though.

Horses are intelligent. I believe them to be capable of logic & reasoning. It just doesn’t look like it to some folks because what is logical & reasonable for horses as a species doesn’t have much in common with what is logical & reasonable for humans. Yeah, it was exasperating to have to forcably drive my horses out of the barn with a longe whip the time a light fixture started smoking. I understood why every fibre of their being was screaming at them to return to the barn, though. More controversial: I think some horses understand the concept of humans’ sense of humor in a rudimentary way & will play tricks/slapstick pranks on select humans that are familiar enough to the horse that he knows that doing so seems to make happy.

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“give fits” was referring to the Trainers, who were incredibly frustrated, not the horse.

“rude” describes the behavior, not the intention. The act of walking over a human being is not normally described as being “polite”. It’s a vernacular.

Returning to the trailer, these are all similar trailers and I had not brought a trailer that he had ever seen. There was no reason for him to fear this trailer any more or less than any of the previous trailers. I should add that from the moment I got this horse, I never had any issue getting him on any trailer.

I did not teach him trailer loading, and I’m just not magical.

So, let’s go back to his longing behavior. Same horse. When longed for the first time after a long time off, he kicks at me, the same handler. I growl, and tap him with the whip. I don’t beat him. He’s still not afraid of me (clearly, same beast that gallops toward me), and in theory I haven’t lost any trust on the longe. I doubt that my tap with the whip is enough to overcome pain (and he’s never been truly beaten with a longe whip). He goes forward. Next longing session, even if it’s quite a few days later, he does NOT exhibit this behavior. Did the pain go away if it existed? No. Quite impossible. I’d believe that if it were a day later, but not several days later. Did my tap outweigh any possible pain? No. Also not probable. I suppose I’m nothing if not consistent, but this is ALSO a consistent behavior. If he’s off for more than a few months, this happens. Every single time. Then the following longing he’s perfect.

I cannot make that fit with your overly simplistic explanation. If he would do it again a few days later, I could say sure, easier to kick out than go forward, but he does not. By the third time longing after returning to work, he’s back to voice commands only.

You didn’t address horse number two. I’ll bring him up again because I found his behavior fascinating.

Horse number two was an experienced Morgan lesson horse. Gave many lessons to people of all ages. To beginners he would trot around happily. Canter away, flopping at the reins, pulling on his mouth, and he was just fine. For an advanced rider, he was also perfect. For an intermediate rider who was beyond the flopping canter stage but had not yet learned inside leg to outside rein, he would park himself in the corner of the ring and refuse to move until they had asked for the turn correctly.

If he were better for the beginner and worse for the advanced, I’d suspect pain in contact or in working correctly. But he wasn’t. He was only “bad” for the intermediate riders. And again, this was a horse who gave lessons to riders of all ages.

This was also the horse that one day walked over to me and pressed his lips against my forehead for a very long time. Very inexplicable behavior. No biting, licking, or other shenanigans, just pressing. And he stood there for a good 2 minutes. Then he walked away. Never did it again.

Now, for a small element of woo, I suffer from a condition called Bradycardia in which my heart beats slowly. I’ve often wondered whether there are some horses who find this lack of intensity comforting, even as I react predictably like a “normal” trainer. I tend to calm reactive horses, even when I’m not feeling so very calm myself, but it’s because my heart rate (unless I’m truly having a panic attack, which hasn’t happened in awhile) is very slow even when I’m nervous.

A sideline, whether you call it trust or you call it respect really honestly doesn’t matter. I’m not sure that “trust” is any less of a human emotion than “respect”. What it means is that the horse behaves differently for one than for another.

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Gotcha, although I’ve seen enough horses run through stud chains to believe that if a horse truly wants to get away, there’s little that can hold them back :slight_smile:

You’ve met my saddlebred then, flinger of things into the aisle, snapper of bras, and unzipper of human jackets. He’s hilarious and he knows it.

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Ok - I said it before, but I think I’m honing in on our difficulty in communication.

I cannot respect someone that I do not trust. Nor can I trust someone that I do not respect. For me, these two words are interchangeable. Trust, respect, and “ease of communication” are all leadership qualities, as are body language, predictability, tone of voice, and “energy” or lack thereof (getting into the woo again, sorry).

If, however, you equate respect with some sort of esoteric concept, then you’re right, I don’t think horses “get” that like we do. But I don’t equate it with an esoteric concept.

My horse follows me because he trusts in my leadership. He trusts that I will keep him safe. And he respects that when I tell him to do something different than his own instincts tell him to do, that it’s probably a good idea to follow. Does he think of it in those terms? No. But this is the behavior he exhibits. Does he sit at night and think “man, I trust that weird brunette”? No, he doesn’t.

My team at work follow me because they trust in my leadership. They trust that I will keep them safe. And they respect that when I tell them to do something different than their own instincts tell them to do, that it’s probably a good idea to follow. They DO think of it in those terms (although I’d argue that it’s easier to communicate with the horse). They may sit at night and wonder why the heck they trust that weird brunette, unlike the horse.

I think that truly the latter, long term part, is the part that differentiates us. The metacognition. Some humans fail here too ROFL.

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Absolutely. Horses can sense a human heartbeat from 4’ away according to a recent study. And animals & humans all have our own electromagnetic field courtesy of the various neuro-impulses our body creates. Physical & mental illness & injury create irregularities to that body’s field. We humans can sense it – think crossing the street to get away from someone who seemed “off” somehow. Animals are even more attuned to those irregularities.

Yup! I had an aged Percheron who retired with me. He had been a commercial carriage horse for his whole life. Introverted, serious demeanor. He hadn’t been treated gently or very kindly most of his career. So it was both a surprise & rather touching when he started playing little tricks on me a few months after his arrival. “Sneaking” up behind me & touching me with his nose & then pretending it wasn’t him, etc. It was fascinating that he not only understood that it was ok/safe to do so with me and that he seemed to take pride in making me laugh but that he also had a solid grasp of why it was funny. (Gigantic, aloof, non-demonstrative horse tickling you then attempting to “hide” behind a 6 × 6.)

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Yes I’ve seen that study! It appears to have quite a large influence in my limited experience, due to the effect I had before I had acquired a ton of knowledge or consistency (quite early in my riding career). They want to “fix” it with meds now that I’m older (and it’s obvious that my heart rate is not because I’m an Olympic level athlete) and I’m not inclined to let them.

So I am magical snort.

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This. This times a thousand. We ask horses to do things for us. They respond because they trust that the ‘ask’ makes sense to us and that they will not be hurt by it. And that we are their leaders. They totally do not understand the ask, but it is okay, and sometimes it is even fun! So. The trust is that we as the leaders aren’t going to ask something that hurts them. Now, here is the catch, I think many horses these days don’t really see people as leaders, just as weird annoying two legged things it is better to humor. Because, we actually by and large don’t ask our horses to do that much. That isn’t a negative or positive, it just is. Most of what most horses do is repetitive behaviour that makes ‘sense’ very little of it pushes their mental envelope. But for thousands of years we have breed horses that when we do push the envelope, when we do ask, they will say yes.
Because for thousands of years we have asked for things that do hurt them and they will do it. And we have bred for that behaviour. That is the huge reason horses are preferred over donkeys or mules. I could, for example ask my big draft to pull until he was on his knees or worse until he dropped. God bless him and d—m me, he would do it. That horse would never, in the human sense believe I could ask that, that sort of betrayal/use doesn’t exist for a horse. It does for man.

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I agree. This describes my dear friend the skipping longer quite well. He humored her - but he certainly wasn’t paying attention to her nor was he really listening.

He’d walk along quite sluggishly on the longe line, eventually when she’d sang “trot” to him enough times he would launch into a lethargic trot, focused more on everything else in the world than on her.

She wasn’t a beginner either, quite a handy rider, but for whatever reason she was afraid to hurt him and it translated into him tuning her right out.

For that relationship I think he trusted her mostly enough (she had to do some medical treatments that most horses and owners would find difficult) but he definitely had no feeling that doing what she said he needed to do was in any way urgent or important.

But I’m fairly sure that given self-preservation or her preservation he would have chosen his own.

Whereas horse #2 of mine has proven time and time again that he will listen to me even when his own instincts are screaming for him not to. It’s the burden of leadership for me to ensure that I don’t abuse that even accidentally.

But that’s the same with people. Doing something to lose your team’s trust or asking them to do more than they can is a very abusive act, and the worst thing one can do as a leader.

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