Anyone else find it curious that there are never posted sales figures??? Or perhaps they are VERY difficult to find. So what gives? Anyone here been to these auctions? Quality for dressage is advertised but…??? Would love to hear details from someone who has been.
I get their catalog, and occasionally hear gossip about what the horses went for. I can’t remember anything specific, but I remember just having the impression that the prices were very, very high.
Why don’t you just contact the auctioneer and register as an interested party and ask for the record of sale?
Because I already know it costs less to buy directly from Portugal, Spain or S. America. It costs less to buy directly from Holland, Denmark or Germany, too.
slc2, how can you KNOW “it costs less to buy directly from Portugal” if all you have to work with is “gossip”? Knowing someone who heard that someone knew someone who paid an extravagant amount of money for a horse doesn’t mean a thing.
Even if the price is printed in a sales results doesn’t necessarily mean that is the true amount paid. People can “buy” their own horses - it happens all the time in the TB world. As long as the sales company gets their commission, they don’t care who signs the ticket or what name they use.
I completely agree with Thomas. If a person wants to know the truth, the best way to find out is by getting it through legitimate and trustworthy sources.
I think I have read their auction results at some point, actually. I’m not sure I’d say all sport horse auctions have always published actual results, though.
Here’s what I believe. I believe that people do not generally sell imported horses at cost. That’s my fundamental concept.
I believe that people sell imported horses at or below cost only when something goes wrong. I believe it is their goal and their intention to make a profit when they import horses and resell them.
I also believe that horses are quite often sold after import for quite a lot more than they were bought and imported for. Several horses I looked at in Holland were sold for almost double what I would have paid for them in Holland, a few months later in the USA.
I seriously doubt anyone goes out with the intention of selling an imported horse at cost, or even slightly above cost. Importing horses for resale is not a charity operation.
I am not protesting this ‘system’. This is how horse sales are. An importer expects to make a profit, and in a good sale, they assume a great deal of risk in importing a horse, as they may not sell it for a long time and incur MORE expense (which is usually factored into the eventual selling price), and they identify horses, network and do leg work, they know how to match horse with rider, they know what Americans are looking for, they know what the judges are looking for, and that’s what a lot of people really don’t mind paying for.
At the same time, if one is able to go over and find horses for a lower cost, why not do so and not pay the markup? Plenty of people are quite successful at doing so.
When I was going to get a Lusitano, I contacted several breeders directly in S. America. While there are a lot of non sport type breeders there, there are sport type breeders, and I was pleasantly surprised at the prices.
It’s just one more option for people, to buy direct from a breeder.
It has the same potential advantages as doing so with a non imported horse, which is to say, lots of advantages.
I’d love to know if anyone finds the results…
I get a lot of mailings from them, slap me upside the head if i forget to go thru them for you…I believe these folks are very good, they have some very, very decent well established sport horse people running that business, and i’d respect the results they publish, but folks don’t assume when you see any and all auction results that they are far superior to gossip, there does appear to be a lot going on at some auctions that isn’t in the results .
I was checking prices about 6 months ago…Lusitanos are one of my top 2 faves and hubby and I were seriously considering buying one when we were looking for another horse. We checked in and outside the country…found the prices to be almost the same with importing vs buying ones from the USA. Neither were inexpensive though. :winkgrin:
FWIW here’s what we found in prices:
Bred here in the USA vs purchased outside of the USA and then importing them here were about the same cost.
Those bred outside the USA and already imported and offered for sale here in the States were the highest priced ones.
Stallions were the most prevalent and most expensive. They seem to leave almost every male horse intact…while they seem to have decent personalities as stallions I’m highly doubting the vast majority are breeding prospects. But those outside the country stay intact mostly due to normal practice and those left intact here in the states (either bred here or imported intact) are left that way as breeding prospects…not necessarily for improving the breed but as a draw to those who want to cross breed for the “romance” of the breed.
Mares are less by a bit, but most outside of the country aren’t more than halter broke no matter what age they are. They don’t seem to bother riding mares at all in many places outside the USA.
Geldings are darned hard to find and those are priced depending upon training.
Average prices we were finding were:
weanlings to yearling: $5k to $12k (color is a big price change and dilutes are the highest prices, seems Baroques are really getting into color breeding)
Yearling to 3 year old colts/stallions: $8k to $18k depending on age/started or not and color
Yearling to 3 year old fillies/mares: $5k to $12k depending on color and age/started or not
Yearling to 3 year old gelding: not found anywhere when we were looking, the few they geld they seem to geld later
3 year old and up started or riding stallions: $15k to the sky is the limit! Higher priced for dressage ready or color
3 year old and up started or riding mares: $10k and up to about $30k on average although few were ridden. Most were roached and pregnant and never ridden
3 year old and up riding or started geldings: $10k and up to about $45k…although the highest priced ones we found were in the higher levels of dressage and competition ready and then there was a HUGE gap down to the lower priced ones who were ready to ride but not spectacular. Geldings seem to be the ones that had no special colors and had attitude issues as stallions so were gelded.
We were surprised at how popular dilutes are becoming in the breed in and out of the States. Chestnuts and bays also sell decently if mares so they can produce buckskins and palominos if bred to a creme or dilute stallion. Blacks and cremellos sell the highest prices regardless of training…only horses we saw priced as high as the fancy colors were the more common grey stallions who were performing and doing well at shows or exhibitions at the higher levels. But a grey 10 year old stallion at 3rd level and a cremello or black stallion same age and level were worlds apart in price.
That was our pricing experience…take it at face value for whatever it’s worth. 
We didn’t check the auctions, just sales barns and breeders.
None of those prices are for horses for sale in S America or Europe right? They’re all prices for horses already in America?
Did you find that ‘Anything But Grey’ had a higher price given same age and training?! I sure did! I thought the buckskins, blacks, cremellos and especially palominos were higher than bays, but chestnuts sometimes were priced quite high too.
You did a great job on research. I didn’t even look at the baby prices, and they look great.
[QUOTE=slc2;3758927]
Here’s what I believe. I believe that people do not generally sell imported horses at cost. That’s my fundamental concept. [/QUOTE] No sh** Sherlock!!!
I believe that people sell imported horses at or below cost only when something goes wrong. I believe it is their goal and their intention to make a profit when they import horses and resell them.
:eek: Talk about stating the blindingly bleeding obvious!
You mean they go to all that trouble of locating a horse in Europe, getting all it’s documentation in order, finding a shipping agent and getting it all the way to the USA and then they expect to make a profit!??
I also believe that horses are quite often sold after import for quite a lot more than they were bought and imported for.
Do you know anything at all about the commercial business of importing and selling horses.
Several horses I looked at in Holland were sold for almost double what I would have paid for them in Holland, a few months later in the USA.
Now let’s have a think about this…
If Horse = $X
and Buyer’s Time = $Y, Vetting = $Z, Transportation = $A, Livery = $B, Vaccination into country of choice = $C, Insurance = $F, Advertising = $D
Then what would total cost of imported horse cost ?
I seriously doubt anyone goes out with the intention of selling an imported horse at cost, or even slightly above cost.
Unless of course it was a seriously stupid person who didn’t have a clue and never actually knew anything about horse purchase and horse importation.
I am not protesting this ‘system’. This is how horse sales are. An importer expects to make a profit, and in a good sale, they assume a great deal of risk in importing a horse, as they may not sell it for a long time and incur MORE expense (which is usually factored into the eventual selling price), and they identify horses, network and do leg work, they know how to match horse with rider, they know what Americans are looking for, they know what the judges are looking for, and that’s what a lot of people really don’t mind paying for.
Does any of the above have anything at all to do with the OP’s question.
At the same time, if one is able to go over and find horses for a lower cost, why not do so and not pay the markup? Plenty of people are quite successful at doing so.
Please give some specific examples to demonstrate your assertion.
When I was going to get a Lusitano, I contacted several breeders directly in S. America. While there are a lot of non sport type breeders there, there are sport type breeders, and I was pleasantly surprised at the prices.
Please do explain what is the difference between a Lusitano breeder that is non sport type and sport type???
It’s just one more option for people, to buy direct from a breeder.
It has the same potential advantages as doing so with a non imported horse, which is to say, lots of advantages.
Hey??? (Thomas: goes to find the icon with the puzzled look and dribble coming down the side of it’s mouth :p:rolleyes:)
They’d probably fall down laughing if you rode a mare. Funny! Even a riding school in Portugal I went to years ago taught all the lessons - kids, beginners, advanced, whatever, on stallions. Not a mare in sight (which was probably one reason the stallions were focused on their work!).
You don’t need to be so rude, Thomas.
I think you are trying to pick a fight over nothing. First, you’re asserting there are all these expenses of importing horses, above and beyond price paid.
I think everyone knows that.
But you’re trying to argue that no one ever adds anything to their costs when setting a price for a resale other than their own expenses, which simply is not true. In fact, prices of imports are all over the place, some are expenses plus a little profit, and some are way, way over expenses and costs.
The ‘buyer’s time’ is not the only thing that goes into a price, though the ‘buyer’s time’ is actually a very difficult thing to put a price on and not everyone will agree on how the ‘buyer’s time’ should be figured.
They also consider very, very difficult to measure and set as costs, such as ‘risk’, ‘recouping other losses’, ‘how much will the market bear’ and ‘what are other horses like this selling for’ and things like ‘image’ and ‘status’ and ‘community’, as well as ‘what-other-bills-do-i-have-to-pay this month’ and just plain old ‘how much money do my likely buyers have’.
I am not going to respond further, because no matter what, you’ll immediately start cyber-screaming and insulting me and calling me names that are usually shouted across a schoolyard, you would do that even if I agreed to you, you would find something wrong in HOW I agreed with you.
[QUOTE=slc2;3758999]
You don’t need to be so rude, Thomas.[/QUOTE] Here we go again! Its the sniveling cry and winging complaint of SLC2 whenever someone disagrees with anything she posts!
I think you are trying to pick a fight over nothing.
Erm I thought you knew that it’s a bulletin board. Someone posts something. Someone else reads it and responds appropriately and in accordance with what they are thinking might need to be said.
You posted something totally bizarre and off topic and nothing to do with the OP’s question.
Your comment was in direct answer to my posting and was picked up by Hitchinmygetalong as being somewhat irrational.
You returned with something even more bizarre and superfluous IMO and which I felt required comment.
First, you’re asserting there are all these expenses of importing horses, above and beyond price paid.
I think everyone knows that.
Really? I did wonder if you did from your previous posting.
I also think you might not know, that here in the United States, that a great many dealers do not do exactly your math.
You think not? Actually I have exported to the USA
There is a substantial amount added to many sales, rather above costs.
It’s called a profit.
There is a certain ‘market mystique’ to the magical words ‘imported’ and quite a few people ATTEMPT to place a premium on that when they set a price.
For the sake of clarity, I’ll repeat. It’s called a profit. When you run a business, it’s what you expect to make after you’ve recovered all your expenses and overheads. The profit margin will be determined by the market rate. So when I exported horses from the UK to the USA, I made a very nice profit and more than I could have if I’d just sold them here.
Now I’m thinking that’s just blindingly obvious because otherwise why on earth would someone bother going to all that trouble and effort.
I also thought that you were thinking it was some sort of mysterious magic mark-up. Seems from your most recent posting, I was right in first thinking that.
I am not going to give you any examples, because you’ll immediately start cyber-screaming and insulting me about what a stupid sod I am and how you know so much more.
If the cap fits then wear it.
To answer your questions, I would need to have some motivation for doing so. I don’t.
Fair enough. I was only mildly curious being that I’m in the commercial equestrian world in Europe and have actually imported horses and including Lusitanos. Be assured though I’ll not lose sleep over your lack of meaningful detail.
The OP merely needs to know that to obtain sale prices she needs to either make contact with someone who was there and stayed for the sale duration or else get in contact with the Auctioneer.
and occasionally hear gossip about what the horses went for. I can’t remember anything specific,
Translation- You haven’t the foggiest.:lol:
Actually it’s not a sniveling cry or wingeing. It’s a response to rudeness. Your rudeness, no one else was rude here except you.
I welcome adult discussion, and I don’t mind opening my eyes to some new information or changing an idea.
Just not schoolyard name calling and rudeness, and splitting hairs for the sake of having something and someone to insult. Whether something is ‘irrelevant’ or not is also opinion, since most of these threads veer all over the place and people say largely whatever they feel like saying, ‘irrelevant’ usually is only ‘relevant’ when someone is looking desperately for something else to insult.
After a point, the pricing of horses strays away from ‘expenses’, even from ‘profit’. There is no blue book for horses ‘value’, how good a horse is, what potential it has varies depending on who you talk to, and contracted vet and shipping expenses may be quite different from what I’d get as a quote from a vet or shipper.
It’s a matter of opinion as to how often ‘profit’ is calculated fairly or how many sellers do that fairly, or even what ‘fair’ in profit actually is. You can’t successfully argue opinion on this, and there isn’t any earthshaking reason my opinions must match yours.
As a seller/exporter, perhaps you actually are as sensitive and overly defensive as your words suggest, though if you really are comfortable with how you do this, I fail to see why you should be so defensive on the subject, or so eager to jump all over me. That you are so eager to single someone out and attack them constantly certainly doesn’t make you seem appealing as a professional, regardless of how stupid that individual may appear to you or anyone else. If one is so experienced and so knowledgeable, then by definition, everyone else is going to be one degree or another of stupid, yet most professionals learn how to talk to them without being quite so rude.
Some people are more optimistic about horse prices, ‘profit’ and ‘expenses’ being calculated in fairly others aren’t. It’s an opinion whether prices are ‘usually fair’ or ‘usually not fair’, but that’s not how I look at it, actually. Most people feel they’ve found someone who takes good care of them most of the time, but they might not necessarily have that confidence in everyone, that’s my usual view. And that’s an ok view to have.
Many, most (?), professionals do not post sales prices in horse sales. This is so agents can tack on their commissions. It’s another “Magic Markup.” Love that. I think it will be the name of my next sales horse.
Too true Twofatponies…the out of the country breeders/sellers we contacted were perplexed that I might want to ride a mare. :yes: There was a communication gap where I was asked repeatedly, “But for riding? Then yoou want a male horse!” :lol: I was probably the “crazy American woman” who was looking to buy a mare for riding! :winkgrin:
slc2…I did contact 2 breeders in Brazil and also one in Portugal and 2 in Spain. And then here in North America most breeders/sales barns for lusitanos (and andies) seem to be more heavily located in CA, TX, WY…and a few in Canada. We contacted about 12 I think total…phone or e-mail. There’s one in MA too, Casa Lusitana, who were very helpful and informative with our research on pricing/finding them.
The prices weren’t that different outside the states compared to inside the states, by the time you added in importing costs they were pretty close to the same. The highest priced on average “type” of horse we found were those for sale inside the USA and Canada that were imported and then offered for sale. If we were stuck on getting an imported one we’d look outside the country ourselves and then purchase and import it ourselves because the ones already imported and not bred here were priced way above the cost of purchasing and then importing them ourselves. Just as an example:say there was a 6 year old average stallion in Brazil would have been about $15k-$25k to purchase and import. Same exact horse already in the states but that hadn’t been bred here and was imported would be $40k-$65k. Same or remarkably similar horse. But we were also finding the same horse in the states for the $15k-$25k as long as it was bred here.
The Spanish/Portugese horses seem to have a mystique if they’re imported…as if coming from outside the country alone made it worth more. Kind of like with WBs…or designer clothes. :winkgrin: But if you go buy direct from out of the country it’s nowhere near as expensive.
Also my experience has to be balanced by the fact that I was not shopping for top prospect anything…more for a decent all around type. I’d have been more interested in things outside of dressage and trying a bit of everything with the Lusitano. I wasn’t interested in breeding either and that can raise the price by quite a bit. We were looking for specifically:
*Under 8-10 years old and yearling or over.
*Mare or gelding. (although we did price stallions figuring gonads are removeable)
*On the short side…preferrably 15.2hh and under (and while that should have been easy since they’re not known as tall horses…many have been breeding for taller for who knows what reason other than tall = popular. They’re more than built enough to take up anyone’s leg at 15.2hh)
*Not grey…I’m not a color buyer but I did not want to purchase a $10k to $25k pleasure/fun/small local show horse that had a high potential of being a walking melanoma vet bill. So any color other than grey…and you’re right that chestnuts were rare as hen’s teeth and were getting some high prices…blacks and cremellos were highest priced followed by chestnuts and palominos…followed by bays and buckskins and then greys came in last when color alone was being considered in the prices.
*Not needed to be a competitive dressage prospect…if I ever did dressage with it, it would have been more towards training levels than anything else and not a whole llot of talent is needed for my dressage skills. (or lack of skills) I wanted something more “up” for jumpers, hunter paces, (not hunters, paces for fun) having fun trying team penning and cow-y stuff once in a while, pleasure riding, etc. Pretty much a fun all around type keeper/forever pet that I could enjoy a little of anything on and still compete low levels if I felt like it.
We were seriously considering buying one but then I got a case of the financial guilts since our youngest daughter is heading to college in 2.5 short years and couldn’t justify the cost of a “dream type” horse with the current economy and tuition coming up.
We ended up going a whole spectrum the other direction and got a cute sweet young AQHA gelding at AC4H to keep our other horse company, LOL! My husband wanted to give the newer gelding the barn name “Lou” for Lou-sitano since that’s what we had been shopping for. :lol:
Please refocus on the original topic and avoid the personal commentary.
Thanks,
Mod 1
Wow you did a lot of homework Misty! Thanks for all that info.
