That was inside his house, no less:
http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2011/02/man_faces_misdemeanor_charge_o.html
Rule of thumb is that you don’t ever let your herd dog get a taste of blood. Piss poor training for the heeler.
Makes me want to throw up, not that it happened which seemed inevitable, but that they had a good time doing it.
The point is, and why I posted it here, is that it seems as if what we do as foxhunters is illegal in Michigan, except on a technicality. I think we are flying under the radar of the PETA, SWPL types. They would be out for our scalps if only they knew.
That article makes no sense. There must have been something on the footage that lead to the misdemeanor charge, or the prosecutor is a blithering idiot.
It is not “nature” to allow a dog to harass wildlife. One of the reasons there are leash laws for pet dogs is to prevent pet dogs from doing just that. Harassing wildlife, including preying on nesting groundbirds and destroying nests. So the statement saying it would have been ok had the dog killed it while wandering about is just illogical. It’s not legal for pets to run around killing wild animals willy nilly.
Note that there is a distinction between a dog lawfully hunting, and a pet dog set loose to wreak havoc.
The dog was also not lawfully hunting, though no one in their right mind would consider this hunting. Hunting is regulated, there are seasons, limits, etc. So in no way would this be considered coon hunting.
But it is legal to dispatch wild animals destroying property, and depending upon what state you’re in you may or may not need a permit. If he did not require a permit to dispatch the coon, then using a dog to quickly dispatch the animal should be legal. Especially since the guy is a wildlife pest expert - he should know the law and regulations in his state.
Which leads me to wonder if it is the footage that lead to the charge - that something in the footage was so egregious, so unethical, that a criminal charge was warranted.
A dog dispatching an animal like a coon is done quickly. A grab to the neck and then a shake, breaking the neck. In close quarters, it may be the safest way to kill the animal, as a firearm could be dangerous. And especially with a rabies vector species, a human would be well advised to keep as far away as possible from the animal. In coon hunting, which is also regulated and certain acts are prohibited - if a hound does catch a coon it dies in an instant. But like foxhunting the odds are always on the coon - it usually trees.
If, for some reason, the person purposefully allowed the dog to toy with the animal, or took pleasure in drawing out the animal’s death, or took steps to ensure the dog could not kill the animal quickly - but instead took it away or took other measures to create or prolong agony…
then the guy should be punished.
In no way should what this person is purported to have done be compared to foxhunting.
Read the comments following the article and it does seem there is some past history of the prosecutor being a “blithering idiot”.
Also, note the young man (23) who sicced the dog on the raccoon is not a pest control expert, but rather the son of said expert.
There are two things going on here.
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I suspect the story painted by the family and defense attorney may be not entirely true. It’s quite likely there was something “egregious” on the video.
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However, to say there’s no comparison to what we do as foxhunters (some hunts) is a stretch.
“Prosecutor = PETA blithering idiot” seems like the most likely scenario.
If I had a raccoon in the house I would send my terrier to get it, just as I would send her to get rats.
The problem with this is, if there is a judgement aginst this guy, it has the “benefit” of impacting fox hunters. It will give all the other PETA idiots license to go after all those who hunt with dogs.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;5421504]
“Prosecutor = PETA blithering idiot” seems like the most likely scenario.
If I had a raccoon in the house I would send my terrier to get it, just as I would send her to get rats.
The problem with this is, if there is a judgement aginst this guy, it has the “benefit” of impacting fox hunters. It will give all the other PETA idiots license to go after all those who hunt with dogs.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know - I question the content of the video. Remember that right now there’s just the defendant’s side of things really being presented, and of course he’s not going to say ‘well, actually, I’m an animal-torturing asshat.’
I mean, based on the facts of the situation as presented in that article - it took long enough for the dog to kill the raccoon that they had time to take minutes of video, during which time they also felt safe enough to get close enough to take said minutes of video. The issue may well be that they had plenty of opportunity in that time to remove the dog and dispatch the raccoon in a more humane fashion (like with a gun) and instead they chose to cheer the dog on and prolong the animal’s suffering.
In that case - the impression I’ve gotten from speaking to hunters (not just here, but folks who hunt deer and so on) is that they do what they can to minimize the suffering of the animal - the ideal is a quick, clean kill. That’s very different from what may have happened in the video.
That’s my impression as well. Just an impression since there is no way to know what actually transpired.
Though I will say it is absolutely ridiculous to assert that what may have transpired can in any way be compared to lawful hunting.
And if anyone thinks it does - well - they just need to learn about hunting from the people who know it best. Sportsmen.
[QUOTE=JSwan;5422286]
Though I will say it is absolutely ridiculous to assert that what may have transpired can in any way be compared to lawful hunting.
And if anyone thinks it does - well - they just need to learn about hunting from the people who know it best. Sportsmen.[/QUOTE]
Most of the hunters I’ve spoken to (and I actually talk to a fair number, since I don’t hunt myself and was kind of anti-hunting in the sense of ‘ew, why would you want to? Isn’t it barbaric?’) would have some pretty strong words for someone they found behaving in such a manner and claiming to be “hunting.”
Heck, some of them have pretty strong opinions on people who shoot a deer, don’t get a kill shot, and don’t suck it up and slog after the injured deer to see if they can get a better chance to take it down properly. It’s a respect for the animal thing - you don’t hunt to cause suffering. If you’ve caused suffering, you do your best to correct that issue. You don’t let a wounded animal drag itself off to die slowly unless you really and legitimately cannot find where it went after a decent time looking.
To be totally honest, that issue of respect for the animal really changed my perspective on hunting quite a lot. I’m not sure it’s something I’d ever do myself - I’d like to try hunting on horseback but I’d prefer to do a drag hunt or something of that nature with no animal hunting involved - but as long as hunters are people who are aware of the fact that they are killing an animal, take pains to make that as painless as possible, and put a lot of effort into maintaining what wilderness areas we have in a good ecological state, well. I can’t really bring myself to say they’re doing a horrible thing.
That said, I would be a lot happier if hunters didn’t feel the need to drive down the road with the deer head carefully placed to hang over the side or tailgate. I’ve seen that several times and it just grosses me out. I don’t really want to be driving down the highway and suddenly be staring into dead-Bambi eyes. (Other hunters seem to manage to fit the entire deer into the back of the truck just fine, so it does seem to be intentionally showing off. I am not impressed.)
I don’t much care for that practice either. I recall reading… where I don’t recall… that some hunters want folks to cover the carcasses, out of respect for the nonhunting public. I guess if the hunter can do that without risking the tarp/cover flying off on the highway… that might be a step forward in public relations.
It wasn’t that long ago that such a sight was perfectly normal, and a way to keep the truck bed cleaner, so folks didn’t even think about it.
The hunter has nothing to be ashamed of - but perhaps especially near urban areas being a wee bit more sensitive is a good thing.
Most sportsmen have a hunting ethic, and are strong conservationists and protectors of wildlife and diversity.
Maybe they can’t describe it very well, so comments about tradition, or customs or history just don’t make sense or are easily dismissed or ridiculed. (Especially by those who live in urban areas and no longer identify closely with the natural world)
But there is something to it. There is a real and honest connection to nature; it is visceral. Those who really understand the poetry, the song, the need to preserve our wild places, the deeply ingrained need to experience nature more intently and personally - that is the real sportsman.
And there are many thousands of them out there, and they are, by far, the majority of the hunters out there. They’re just not as visible as the drunken asshat spotlighting deer.
Unfortunately.
If I seem a little frothy at being compared to someone who may have taken delight in torturing a raccoon to death - that’s why. There is no comparison.
Let’s assume that these guys did indeed enjoy torturing this animal to death. I don’t know if the law makes the distinction. Coon hunters regularly tree 'coons (they’d laugh at you if you called the animal a “racoon”), shoot them with a .22 rimfire, and when the animal falls from the tree, let the dogs have at it. I’ve seen it done, and it isn’t a particularly quick kill, as raccoons can FIGHT.
And then there are the hog hunters who chase the hogs with dogs that latch on to the hog until the handler moves in and cuts the hog’s throat or shoots it in the head with a .22.
How much different is that from the fox hunts that allow their dogs to kill the fox?
[QUOTE=JSwan;5422455]
I don’t much care for that practice either. I recall reading… where I don’t recall… that some hunters want folks to cover the carcasses, out of respect for the nonhunting public. I guess if the hunter can do that without risking the tarp/cover flying off on the highway… that might be a step forward in public relations.
It wasn’t that long ago that such a sight was perfectly normal, and a way to keep the truck bed cleaner, so folks didn’t even think about it.
The hunter has nothing to be ashamed of - but perhaps especially near urban areas being a wee bit more sensitive is a good thing.
Most sportsmen have a hunting ethic, and are strong conservationists and protectors of wildlife and diversity.
Maybe they can’t describe it very well, so comments about tradition, or customs or history just don’t make sense or are easily dismissed or ridiculed. (Especially by those who live in urban areas and no longer identify closely with the natural world)
But there is something to it. There is a real and honest connection to nature; it is visceral. Those who really understand the poetry, the song, the need to preserve our wild places, the deeply ingrained need to experience nature more intently and personally - that is the real sportsman.
And there are many thousands of them out there, and they are, by far, the majority of the hunters out there. They’re just not as visible as the drunken asshat spotlighting deer.
Unfortunately.
If I seem a little frothy at being compared to someone who may have taken delight in torturing a raccoon to death - that’s why. There is no comparison.[/QUOTE]
Well said Jswan.
I have a feeling that there is a lot more to the video or else the prosecutor is just getting carried away.
This should serve as a lesson to everyone about being careful of what they video tape/ photograph. Some people are very sensitive to these types of things. So just don’t broadcast all the gruesome details on YouTube if your local hunt kills a fox 
I didn’t see the actual video on that link, but as a former coonhunter, I see nothing wrong with a dog killing a raccoon. It’s typically worse for the dog than the coon. Have you ever seen a cornered coon? They can fight!! And why would you fire a gun in your garage? I believe this was a bleeding heart liberal prosecuter and unfortunately this will probably have serious ramifications.
[QUOTE=altjaeger;5422506]
Let’s assume that these guys did indeed enjoy torturing this animal to death. I don’t know if the law makes the distinction. Coon hunters regularly tree 'coons (they’d laugh at you if you called the animal a “racoon”), shoot them with a .22 rimfire, and when the animal falls from the tree, let the dogs have at it. I’ve seen it done, and it isn’t a particularly quick kill, as raccoons can FIGHT.
And then there are the hog hunters who chase the hogs with dogs that latch on to the hog until the handler moves in and cuts the hog’s throat or shoots it in the head with a .22.
How much different is that from the fox hunts that allow their dogs to kill the fox?[/QUOTE]
It’s very different then fox hunts allowing hounds to kill a fox. In the US the fox escapes 99.9% of the time because in the US there is a small but healthy fox population. However in the UK the fox population needs to be kept down. I think fox hunting is the best way to do that because it’s a very quick death and only old and weak foxes are killed so it’s survival of the fitest which keeps the population strong. No, it’s not nice at all but nature isn’t nice.
Racoons in Houses & Dogs
We had a raccoon get in our house and we have 3 dogs that would LOVE to have killed him.
They chased him around the house while I was in the shower. I heard the commotion (it was loud, a lot of crashing and banging!). I jumped out of the shower, called my dogs off and shut them in the bedroom, then I opened the back door and shooed the raccoon out side with a broom.
It was easy, painless for me, the raccoon and my dogs and everyone lived happily ever after.
I really don’t see the point in letting your pet dog rip up some poor animal. Hunting with trained dogs (hounds) and trained huntsmen is totally different!
[QUOTE=kkindley;5422580]
I didn’t see the actual video on that link, but as a former coonhunter, I see nothing wrong with a dog killing a raccoon. It’s typically worse for the dog than the coon. Have you ever seen a cornered coon? They can fight!! And why would you fire a gun in your garage? I believe this was a bleeding heart liberal prosecuter and unfortunately this will probably have serious ramifications.[/QUOTE]
I have to say, the one time my dog (lab/rotti mix maybe? Who knows, he came from Florida) had a run in with a coon, it scared the crud out of me. (This was in the city, and he was walking on leash in the evening and we came around a bend and there were garbage cans out and SURPRISE!RACCOON! between two of the garbage cans.) That thing made a really god-awful racket. (And I’ve seen a few of them around here getting into trash before, so I know they’re not small.)
Luckily, Pirate listened and came away and the critter took off, but I was quite surprised that Pirate’s first instinct was to get in there after it. :eek: (Is that normal? I’ve never had a run in like that before where we were unexpectedly right on top of the thing. Normally you can see them or they see you coming and take off.)
(Then I went home, checked him over for injuries - none - and triple checked his rabies is up to date. And now I assume that where there is a trash bin, there may be a lurking critter. I don’t really want to get my dog patched up because he got into a fight with one.) (I live in the city, but due to the geography of the area there are bits of forest dotted here and there on slopes too steep to build on, so we have a fairly healthy population of small wildlife.)
I’d still hold off on identifying too much with the defendant in the case, though - until there are more details made public, it’s really hard to figure out if there was something inappropriate going on, or if it is someone being too sensitive. It’d be bad for legit hunters to throw their hat in the ring with the defendant and then have it turn out that he was behaving in a way that legit hunters wouldn’t condone. That gives way more fuel to any PETA-type fire than the case alone will.
From the article, bolding mine: Prosecutor Mark Blumer…said the dog was encouraged to attack the raccoon and “tear it apart.” He likened this to cockfighting or dogfighting, both of which are illegal. [b]“There is legitimate sport, and then there’s cruel sport,” he said.
“Because you have a license to kill a deer, doesn’t mean you can break all its legs and watch it die slowly.”[/b]
That’s why the guy was charged with cruelty. And that’s also why the case and the charges cannot effectively parallel hunting, foxhunting or otherwise.
edited
A case brought against foxhunters/foxhunting can have a defense that hounds are taught to kill efficiently and quickly, and that any drawn-out behavior is strongly discouraged. One person’s efficiency is another person’s long-drawn out agony, of course, but the counter-argument to that is one of average time-frame of dying, from injury to death.
I recall reading some arguments re: England’s hunting ban that a death by hounds is quicker and more humane than a death by trap, poison, and even some gunshot.
I think you have to also consider fair play as part of this equation. It sounds as if the raccoon was essentially trapped in a small enclosed space and the dog was released to dispatch the raccoon.
A question for other fox hunters, how many years have you been hunting? In that time, how many times have the hounds killed a fox or put it to ground, or the fox gets bored with the chase and the scent/line is lost with no idea where the fox went?
Off to go hunting. It’s starting off cold here this morning, but the temps will be in the 50’s in no time!!
I think the mistake here is that we want to discourage sadistic INTENT, but the law as written is outlawing BEHAVIOR. If you have some barn cats to keep down your mouse population, your guilty of violating this law in Michigan, or, if you are not, then why is this young man guilty of anything? A raccoon in the house or garage is very destructive.
Of course, it’s possible the video will show that the young man released the raccoon into his garage from a live trap his father (or he) had brought home, specifically to see the hound attack it. That would, then, be equivalent to cockfighting or dogfighting.
