Man fatally mauled, dog killed, by pit bulls on dog walk

[vineyridge]

I should point out that people have bred dogs for at least centuries to be vermin killers. That is one of the reasons people were willing to support dogs in human establishments–that and as food and as a garbage service.

In line with that, I should also point out that dogs the size of today’s “tiny” dogs which are vermin sized are completely the result of human breeding. They have absolutely no useful function except as pets.

This notion that the primary use of a dog is as a pet is completely at odds with their history. Before the motor was invented, when humans depended on animals for their very existence, dogs were bred to make human life easier and for special tasks. Then for modern humans to expect them to somehow “overcome” all those inbred talents because humans have changed their expectations is ludicrous. The problems are not dog problems, they are human problems.

If you own a dog who was bred to be a vermin killer, you have to expect it to kill vermin. If you don’t want it to kill vermin, then it’s up to you to prevent it.

Why do we have different expectations for cats and dogs. We expect cats to kill mice (and birds), but no one seems to want to ban cats.

[rubles]

Canadian Trotter
you have no idea where how or when I walk my dogs and, as usual, jump to conclusions.
If some walk their dogs off leash I don’t call them names nor use disparaging remarks and don’t try and tell them how to live their lives.
got it.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;9040554]
I should point out that people have bred dogs for at least centuries to be vermin killers. That is one of the reasons people were willing to support dogs in human establishments–that and as food and as a garbage service.

In line with that, I should also point out that dogs the size of today’s “tiny” dogs which are vermin sized are completely the result of human breeding. They have absolutely no useful function except as pets.

This notion that the primary use of a dog is as a pet is completely at odds with their history. Before the motor was invented, when humans depended on animals for their very existence, dogs were bred to make human life easier and for special tasks. Then for modern humans to expect them to somehow “overcome” all those inbred talents because humans have changed their expectations is ludicrous. The problems are not dog problems, they are human problems.

If you own a dog who was bred to be a vermin killer, you have to expect it to kill vermin. If you don’t want it to kill vermin, then it’s up to you to prevent it.

Why do we have different expectations for cats and dogs. We expect cats to kill mice (and birds), but no one seems to want to ban cats.[/QUOTE]

you are asking people to think intelligently and rationally.

just like some dogs are incapable of settling for pet life after generations of direct breeding for specific purpose (herding, hunting, vermin eradication) so are many people incapable of rational thought and analyzing the history/precedent of dogs.

so many of the problems with dogs, and even the world, could be answered if the population at large was capable of thinking and analyzing the way you do.

[cbmcts]

How many more pit attacks have to happen before a ban is appropriate?

I’m Irish but resident in the UK for many years now. Both countries have breed specific bans and in Irelands case, rigorous controls on 10 breeds which include pits.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_dogs.html

In both countries it is now a legal requirement for all dogs to be microchipped and the owner information kept up to date. Leash laws are in place in many public areas and loose dogs are rapidly picked up by local authorities.In the UK I am liable to prosecution if my dog bites anyone EVEN if they are on my private property having scaled 6ft fences and a locked gate. The only defence to a dog bite is if they have forcibly entered my house and I’m not on the premises…yes really!

In those circumstances, you’d think there would be hardly any injuries caused by dogs in both countries, wouldn’t you? Sadly this isn’t the case, serious injuries and deaths caused by dogs are still on the rise and the collateral damage is that there are more and more unsocialised dogs with owners that never have had to put the effort into training their dogs correctly because they don’t go off lead. That’s all good and fine until the day the leash breaks or a door/gate is left open by mistake (none of us are perfect, accidents happen) and you now have a loose dog who is suspicious of strangers and liable to start a fight with leashed dogs - not good.

Marking any breed as a devil and banning it doesn’t work. The bad owners just move onto another breed and allow it terrorise their neighbourhood. These are Staffordshire Bull Terriers and Huskies at the moment. Very little can be done to educate these type of people, they have dogs as status symbols and weapons with the intention to intimidate members of the public. Specific laws and most importantly, enforcement of them are required to make life uncomfortable and expensive for this type of person IMHO.

Good dogs have good owners. Breed has to be taken into account due to the ability of certain breeds/sizes being able to do more damage to a human. However even small dogs can kill. While every injury or death is unforgivable, breed specific bans don’t deal with the root cause which is the actual person who has an uncontrolled dog. Unless that person has serious consequences to face, the problem isn’t solved by a knee jerk reaction to breed. Despite the breed bans in both countries innocent people are still savaged and killed - this is 20+ years into BSL and it is unacceptable.

IMHO what is needed is much more responsibility by owners at a grassroots level especially training as standard from the day that you own the dog, third party insurance, the cost of which is linked to the documented training levels of your dog all of which could be funded by a reasonable dog licence fee. After all, you’re not allowed drive a car without a license…

This is a sensitive subject for me, my breed is Rottweilers and I have had many over the years, often rescues, all of which have been trained to the best of my ability and managed safely both at home and in public. Not one of my dogs has ever bitten a person or attacked another dog but many times, they have been attacked by out of control so called safer breeds (luckily never seriously) because their owners think that by having a lab/collie/small fluffy that they don’t need to train their dogs. Random members of the public also feel free to comment on my ‘dangerous’ dogs or try and tell me that they are/should be banned. Alternatively they have a Disney view of all dogs and think that they or their children can just march up and get in their faces, not thinking of the potential consequences.

There needs to be general education for all along with accepted responsibilities from dog owners. Owners do not need to be excluded from public areas if they meet these, they are members of society as well as tax payers too.

Gosh, that was an essay! Sorry.

[cbmcts]

How many more pit attacks have to happen before a ban is appropriate?

I’m Irish but resident in the UK for many years now. Both countries have breed specific bans and in Irelands case, rigorous controls on 10 breeds which include pits.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_dogs.html

In both countries it is now a legal requirement for all dogs to be microchipped and the owner information kept up to date. Leash laws are in place in many public areas and loose dogs are rapidly picked up by local authorities.In the UK I am liable to prosecution if my dog bites anyone EVEN if they are on my private property having scaled 6ft fences and a locked gate. The only defence to a dog bite is if they have forcibly entered my house and I’m not on the premises…yes really!

In those circumstances, you’d think there would be hardly any injuries caused by dogs in both countries, wouldn’t you? Sadly this isn’t the case, serious injuries and deaths caused by dogs are still on the rise and the collateral damage is that there are more and more unsocialised dogs with owners that never have had to put the effort into training their dogs correctly because they don’t go off lead. That’s all good and fine until the day the leash breaks or a door/gate is left open by mistake (none of us are perfect, accidents happen) and you now have a loose dog who is suspicious of strangers and liable to start a fight with leashed dogs - not good.

Marking any breed as a devil and banning it doesn’t work. The bad owners just move onto another breed and allow it terrorise their neighbourhood. These are Staffordshire Bull Terriers and Huskies at the moment. Very little can be done to educate these type of people, they have dogs as status symbols and weapons with the intention to intimidate members of the public. Specific laws and most importantly, enforcement of them are required to make life uncomfortable and expensive for this type of person IMHO.

Good dogs have good owners. Breed has to be taken into account due to the ability of certain breeds/sizes being able to do more damage to a human. However even small dogs can kill. While every injury or death is unforgivable, breed specific bans don’t deal with the root cause which is the actual person who has an uncontrolled dog. Unless that person has serious consequences to face, the problem isn’t solved by a knee jerk reaction to breed. Despite the breed bans in both countries innocent people are still savaged and killed - this is 20+ years into BSL and it is unacceptable.

IMHO what is needed is much more responsibility by owners at a grassroots level especially training as standard from the day that you own the dog, third party insurance, the cost of which is linked to the documented training levels of your dog all of which could be funded by a reasonable dog licence fee. After all, you’re not allowed drive a car without a license…

This is a sensitive subject for me, my breed is Rottweilers and I have had many over the years, often rescues, all of which have been trained to the best of my ability and managed safely both at home and in public. Not one of my dogs has ever bitten a person or attacked another dog but many times, they have been attacked by out of control so called safer breeds (luckily never seriously) because their owners think that by having a lab/collie/small fluffy that they don’t need to train their dogs. Random members of the public also feel free to comment on my ‘dangerous’ dogs or try and tell me that they are/should be banned. Alternatively they have a Disney view of all dogs and think that they or their children can just march up and get in their faces, not thinking of the potential consequences.

There needs to be general education for all along with accepted responsibilities from dog owners. Owners do not need to be excluded from public areas if they meet these, they are members of society as well as tax payers too.

Gosh, that was an essay! Sorry.

[rubles]

There are dog appropriate homes and pet appropiate breeds.
That’s a philosophy I’d like to see practiced.

The old man had an appropriate breed for his lifestyle. He’s lost a good friend and I feel for him.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Rubles

AND
leashed dogs are more apt to fight because they are being restrained. I have lots of experience with that as it turns out.
Off leash dogs are not necessarily a threat to anything. That’s a fact too.

So happy that you feel that my dogs, leashed for their safety, are more apt to fight.

So happy to see that you are, IMO, one of the people I run into fairly often in life that is inconsiderate of the feelings and realities that some of us face every single day.

I will again suggest you try sitting in a wheelchair, not being able to get up or run/walk or otherwise evacuate a potential dangerous condition, and see how you feel about unleashed dogs approaching you in your wheelchair (with the added challenge of two dogs in your lap). Do I let my dogs go so they can escape (and potentially run into the street?) Do I assume that all off leash dogs are inherently safe?

Your attitude is more than frustrating as it certainly doesn’t appear to me that you are not taking into account anyone else other than yourself.

I normally don’t get this vocal toward the opinions of others but occasionally when I see a level of being inconsiderate, I can’t help it.

[vineyridge]

As to the idea that unleashed dogs are not necessarily the cause of attacks, that is true; but they ARE sufficiently the cause of attacks.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=beowulf;9040638]
you are asking people to think intelligently and rationally.

just like some dogs are incapable of settling for pet life after generations of direct breeding for specific purpose (herding, hunting, vermin eradication) so are many people incapable of rational thought and analyzing the history/precedent of dogs.

so many of the problems with dogs, and even the world, could be answered if the population at large was capable of thinking and analyzing the way you do.[/QUOTE]

If I had a dog I think she’d be howling with laughter over this post!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Gestalt;9040884]
If I had a dog I think she’d be howling with laughter over this post![/QUOTE]

In what way?

Not all dog breeds make good pet dogs. I cannot believe this is debatable. The problem persists when people try to fit a round peg into a square hole: enter everything from pit-bull owners to border collie owners – inappropriate pairings abound.

And here we have a thread, a subject that has been hashed out unfathomable times - “BAN PIT BULL BREEDS!!!”/“BREED-SPECIFIC-LEGISLATION BANS DON’T WORK” - etc…

and despite mounting evidence that BSL still doesn’t work, people are proponents for it rather than solving the crux of the matter: lack of educated dog owners.

[cloudyandcallie]

Well every dog I’ve ever had, including the setters and aussies and whatever partbreds I’ve scraped off the roads, all settled into pet life very well. My father’s setters slept in the bed with my parents. My aussies slept in bed with me and lived in cities. All were smart. All house pets. My father’s dogs hunted and my aussies came from Las Rocosa which showed bench and field, so they were right out of the Colorado ranch. None felt the need to kill small dogs, cats, wounded birds, etc. (Only one squirrel was found dead with my first aussie and I don’t know if he killed it or it was dead or wounded when it got to our property. Boo once had a baby opossum and said possum was alive when I found it.)

I think anyone who has spent a lifetime with dogs or cats or horses pretty much knows what animals are killers and what animals will not kill. Even the big huge whatever mixed dog I saved as a puppy who had been run over down by the Okefenokee swamp, after one snap at one of my cats, never snarled at any cat or dog or horse or squirrel in the 14 years he lived, all 110 pounds of him. I told him he’d be killed if he harmed a cat or dog. He never snarled at anyone again. Not to say my dogs and cats and horses would not protect me. I had 3 alley cats who used to run to the door growling with my aussies when strangers came to my house in Atlanta. They’d have fought anyone who burgled the place. (No burglars in over 20 years in Atlanta. In St Louis, my aussie chased off the burglar.)

I think people should study animal behavior. And human behavior too.

[rubles]

WMW
I will repeat for clarity.
I have experienced dogs while being walked on their leashes, sniff noses and watch the ruff raise over their shoulders, have them pulled away by the leash and then get aggressive. I did not say all dogs nor specifically any dog, just some dogs at some times. This is my personal experience. When attending breed specific social for dogs, their owners and dog friends held at private fenced residences at the invitation of the property owner every dog without exception was off leash. As a matter of fact to insist on leash ing your dog you would be asked leave–post haste. Those people know dogs better than most casual owners. There would easily be 50 dogs present, dogs, bitches, puppies breeding males, all enjoying the day with one another. NO PROBLEMS
A lot of posters on this board do not understand dogs and from their tone never will just find excuses to pick, pick, pick, what others post. It’s a pity the dogs are so misunderstood by closed, small minds unwilling to learn. I don’t mean all just some.
Unleashed dogs do not bother me with one exceptional incident that I knew how to avoid. Thst dog had alread bitten two people. Had they known dogs it wouldn’t have happened in my opinion.
Believe whatever you want however misguided is your choice. Poor dog, poor old man. Those dogs should have been muzzled and confined. Some people choose the macho breeds for whatever reason and always the dog pays the price.
This is as plain as I can put it.

[rubles]

Cloudy and Callie,
You’re right on. It is a pleasure to read your comments. Finally someone that is a “dog” person.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=rubles;9040971]
Cloudy and Callie,
You’re right on. It is a pleasure to read your comments. Finally someone that is a “dog” person.[/QUOTE]

but that is just the problem - so many people aren’t “dog people” – or truly dog educated. which is why at large you have so many dog-related attacks, causalities, “accidents”.

you cannot rely on the general populace or the average “john doe” to know when a dog is a. an unsuitable dog for their lifestyle b. aggressive or the type to escalate a situation c. giving warning signs before an attack… and forget relying on the average john doe to actually install basic manners into a dog… it just doesn’t happen.

yes, some people are able to mold dogs into pet lifestyles… but can the average dog owner TRULY be an appropriate lifestyle/home for all dogs? what about dogs bred purely for hunting (IE fox-hunting bred foxhounds? what about field retriever bred dogs?). some people have NO idea what a real hunting dog is and think just about any dog can be suitable in an apartment with kids…

a good example of a dog that IMHO i have rarely seen in appropriate homes is the akita… many people want them, very few understand them enough to house and train them appropriately…

[rubles]

Amen Beowulf, amen to that.
If people learned to “Read” their dogs, tried to learn basic dog behaviour, in other words used their brains the dog world would be a lot better off.
It makes me think about Monty Roberts and his philosophy about the way some horses have been treated.

[rubles]

Cbmcts
It was a pleasure reading your “essay”.
I hope you are moved to write more from time to time.

[enjoytheride]

OK so let me sum it all up

1. small yappy dogs are vermin and probably got what was coming

2. Leash laws are for losers

3. Any law we make about any type of animal for any reason will directly lead to the ownership of any animal becoming illegal.

[vineyridge]

I’d say that small, yappy dogs who are aggressive, threaten other dogs, and bite people without command are vermin. Just because they are too small to do much damage doesn’t change the equation. And I’d also say that large dogs who are aggressive, threaten other dogs, and bite PEOPLE without command are vermin and should be treated as such. It’s the lack of inhibition in biting humans without human command that, at least to me, makes them vermin.

[rubles]

Items 1, 2 and 3 above.
WOW–head in hands the conclusions some choose.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Believe whatever you want however misguided is your choice.

Thank heavens I don’t need to plan on being invited to any of your parties with mobs of loose dogs…

I notice that you did not respond to the question about what would you do if you were limited to a wheelchair with an inability to stand and fairly limited in being able to separate dogs that may be having an issue where those dogs are in my lap.

How would you handle a situation where you are limited to a wheelchair with small dogs leashed for their safety and a larger, uncollared dog felt the need to come and investigate one of my dogs? Let mine go and hope for the best?