Mare constantly kicking fence... (PSSM question)

[Draftmare]

My mare was diagnosed unofficially through diet change two years ago with PSSM. She had a lot of the classic symptoms such as hardness of her hind end muscles, unwillingness to pick up her back feet, issues with canter, and a roving hind-end lameness that would show up for a couple of days then disappear again. After consulting with my vet at the time, we decided to start her on the PSSM diet, and go from there. Almost all of her symptoms cleared up within two weeks, and I had a totally new horse.

There is one problem that continues to plague us, and I am trying to sort out what to do. With the same hind leg (always the same hind leg) she will kick. It started out that she was just doing it when tied/cross tied. It wasn’t a violent kick, just like she was kicking at flies, except year around. I never saw her do it in the pasture, and when tied, she typically only did it when I wasn’t paying attention to her, so I kind of brushed it off as similar to a horse that paws. When riding, or hanging out in the arena (or really anywhere else), she doesn’t do it. I am trying to think back to how long ago this started, but I am fairly certain that she didn’t do it before her diagnosis, but then again she didn’t want to hardly pick up her hind feet at all.

I moved her to a new barn 3 months ago, and recently she has started kicking the fences. It started out when the BO observed her kicking at the other horses in the pasture. She kicked another horse pretty badly, so she was moved to an individual turnout. Now she is kicking at the fence. Both times she cut her “kicking leg” pretty badly, it’s always the same leg. Last year we had a similar incident where the same leg got tangled up in the fence at the old barn. Not sure if she kicked or not (still not 100% sure what happened). Not really sure what to do, but I need her to stop kicking the fence, both for her sake and for the property’s sake.

Her current diet is:
Tribute Kalm N EZ (14% NSC)
2 Cups of canola oil
Smartpak Smart Calm (for the magnesium)
8000 IU of synthetic Vitamin E

The only thing I can figure out right now is to switch her to natural Vitamin E. She was on natural Vitamin E to start, but then the price went way up so I switched her to synthetic. It seemed like it was working out well, but maybe not as well as I thought. Since moving her to the new barn she has been doing really well in her training, and we are even talking about maybe moving up a level in the fall (dressage). She is on pasture at the new barn, but its pretty sparse, and she had the same kicking issue at the old barn while on a dry lot.

Any other thoughts on things I can do to help?

[bugsynskeeter]

Can I ask why you are thinking this is PSSM related?

[Draftmare]

@bugsynskeeter

Can I ask why you are thinking this is PSSM related?

It might not be, but I can’t really attribute it anything else.

[Texarkana]

I’m curious to see what others say, as my horse who exhibits PSSM-like symptoms also randomly kicks things.

She will back herself up to a wall or fence and just start randomly, intermittently kicking it while she is otherwise relaxed. Like snooze, stretch, kick, go back to snoozing, kick again, rub her face, another kick, look around and chill for a bit, then kick again. Usually her left leg, but she also does it with her right.

I suspect with my horse that it is a manifestation of hind end discomfort. When I see her doing it, I generally put her on some sort of NSAID or even MSM, and it seems to help. I have not seen her do it since I’ve switched her feed to ReLeve, although that doesn’t necessarily mean she isn’t doing it when I’m not around…

[bugsynskeeter]

The 14% NSC may still be too high for her. Have you tried a different feed?

[Scribbler]

Mares kick. It’s part of how they communicate. Would be useful for OP to distinguish between social kicking and unmotivated wierd kicking at nothing, and then track both against her heat cycles.

Kicking another horse in a field is totally normal. Wierd spasm kicks at nothing in the stall are odd. But they could be related to hear cycles.

Track against heat cycles then put her on regumate to see if there’s a change.

[Draftmare]

@Scribbler

Mares kick. It’s part of how they communicate. Would be useful for OP to distinguish between social kicking and unmotivated wierd kicking at nothing, and then track both against her heat cycles.

Kicking another horse in a field is totally normal. Wierd spasm kicks at nothing in the stall are odd. But they could be related to hear cycles.

Track against heat cycles then put her on regumate to see if there’s a change.

The kicks when tied or cross tied happen virtually every time she is tied or cross tied. The kicking at the fence don’t seem to correlate with other horses being around her. The first and third time it was the fence along the driveway. The second time it was the fence towards the other field, but those horses rarely venture near enough to the fence line to make me think that she is actually aiming at them.

[RedHorses]

Check her vitamin E and selenium levels. If it is low grade muscle pain she may not be getting what she needs. A muscle enzyme check might be worth doing as well.

[Scribbler]

My mare backs up to the wheelbarrow and sort of tries to rub up against it when in heat.

[Draftmare]

@RedHorses

Check her vitamin E and selenium levels. If it is low grade muscle pain she may not be getting what she needs. A muscle enzyme check might be worth doing as well.

I just recently got a new vet, one who also has a PSSM mare. We are going to talk tomorrow about what my options are. I ordered her natural Vitamin E as a starting point. See if getting a more bio-available version of Vitamin E helps anything. I know that being low in Vitamin E can cause as much muscle discomfort as PSSM can. Also going to talk to the vet about getting her tested for type 1 and 2, as type 2 requires a different diet.

[1bigPercheron]

Do you know what type of magnesium is in the Smartpak? My vet told me magnesium malate was the best absorbed, and I use Magrestore. Just a thought since magnesium seems to be an important aid for ALL the types of PSSM .

[JB]

It really would help to know if there’s actually PSSM going on. Make sure the PSSM2 test also includes the sub-types of 3 and 4.

What was her old diet?

I agree the KNE might still be too much for her at 14%. How much does she get?

With that much oil/fat, she really does need to be on higher levels of E, and I would definitely pull blood for selenium levels.

Synthetic E is not necessarily cheaper than natural, since you have to feed about 30% more to get the same effect. Pretty much the cheapest natural E is the UltraCruz https://www.scahealth.com/scah/product/ultracruz-equine-vitamin-e-horse-supplement You can find human gel caps for about the same price per 1000IU, which is about $.13. And for some, tossing in pills is easier for horse and human, than scooping some light fluffy powder which really does need to be wet down a little (though not an issue for you since you’re already feeding oil).

[Draftmare]

@1bigPercheron

Do you know what type of magnesium is in the Smartpak? My vet told me magnesium malate was the best absorbed, and I use Magrestore. Just a thought since magnesium seems to be an important aid for ALL the types of PSSM .

Its a combination of two types of magnesium, I know that malate was for sure one of them, but I don’t remember what the other kind was. I had to call SmartPak and have them track down that information since it isn’t on the package. She has only been on the Smart Calm since moving to the new barn. She suddenly decided to stop eating the powdered mag ox I was getting from the feedmill.

[Pocket_Pony]

Does she get chiropractic or acupuncture or massage? I wonder if she has sort of a muscle spasm that she’s trying to “clear” on her own?

I was going to ask if it was new for the spring but went back and saw you said it was year 'round. When we get the cheat grass here it gets in my pony’s feathers and she does the kicking sort of thing but that’s only when we’re on the trails and riding through it. I brush out her feathers when we’re done - you can’t really see them when they get in the feathers, but when you brush them out you’ll see them on the floor.

But it sounds like that’s not your issue.

[Draftmare]

@JB

It really would help to know if there’s actually PSSM going on. Make sure the PSSM2 test also includes the sub-types of 3 and 4.

What was her old diet?

I agree the KNE might still be too much for her at 14%. How much does she get?

With that much oil/fat, she really does need to be on higher levels of E, and I would definitely pull blood for selenium levels.

Synthetic E is not necessarily cheaper than natural, since you have to feed about 30% more to get the same effect. Pretty much the cheapest natural E is the UltraCruz https://www.scahealth.com/scah/produ…rse-supplement You can find human gel caps for about the same price per 1000IU, which is about $.13. And for some, tossing in pills is easier for horse and human, than scooping some light fluffy powder which really does need to be wet down a little (though not an issue for you since you’re already feeding oil).

When she was first “diagnosed” it was done through my own research and the help of a friend that also has a PSSM horse. The vet I was using at the time was 100% convinced that it was just “growing pains” and possibly a stifle issue. However, none of that seemed to explain some of the other things she was doing, like parking out like a TWH after a long trail ride, and having sooooo many issues at the canter and with picking up her hind feet. Because I saw improvement after switching her to the PSSM diet, I never went back and got her tested once I became aware that actual testing was available.

Her old diet was just your standard sweet feed that the local feed mill mixed up.

She doesn’t get a ton, half a coffee can, which I think is about 3 pounds. I like her getting all the vitamin and minerals in the grain, but really it is just a mode of transportation for her oil and supplements. We don’t have a ton of options in our area, just Tribute and Purina feeds.

I have been using Ultra Cruz’s synthetic, and I did wonder if 8000 IU of synthetic = 8000 IU of natural. I ordered my natural from them. I like that they have a pelleted form, which hopefully will mean less waste.

I was finally able to talk to the vet. She didn’t seem convinced that her kicking behavior has anything to do with her PSSM status. She thinks that Sydney might have hind gut ulcers. I am not convinced that she fits the typical profile of a horse with ulcers. She was on a dry lot for 2 years with limited hay access, so I am sure that could have put her at risk for them. She wants me to treat her with Succeed. Having some sticker shock there. Are there other products out there that do the same thing for less?

I think I will try the natural Vitamin E first since I already ordered that, then try something for ulcers if that that doesn’t help.

[Angela_Freda]

My Yo had a sticky stifle.
When on X ties, especially if standing there long, he would kick out with that hind leg. Like you describe, as if a fly was bothering him. It was very clear it was not at me or people or other horses, never a different leg, and always when standing long times.
I chalked it up to the stifle getting sore/stuck from standing on a hard surface and stationary too long.

[JB]

@Draftmare

When she was first “diagnosed” it was done through my own research and the help of a friend that also has a PSSM horse. The vet I was using at the time was 100% convinced that it was just “growing pains” and possibly a stifle issue. However, none of that seemed to explain some of the other things she was doing, like parking out like a TWH after a long trail ride, and having sooooo many issues at the canter and with picking up her hind feet. Because I saw improvement after switching her to the PSSM diet, I never went back and got her tested once I became aware that actual testing was available.

Her old diet was just your standard sweet feed that the local feed mill mixed up.

I may have missed it, so forgive me if I did, but what’s the timeline between changing feed the first time and seeing the quick improvement, to starting to see these new issues? I know you said you’re pretty sure it started after the diet change, just wondering how long, roughly.

I’m asking because the drop from a REALLY high sugar standard sweet feed, to something even as relatively high for a PSSM horse as 14%, could be reason enough to see lots of improvement, but then the kicking issue is just her manifestation of discomfort that she was never able to display before because she simply couldn’t.

She doesn’t get a ton, half a coffee can, which I think is about 3 pounds. I like her getting all the vitamin and minerals in the grain, but really it is just a mode of transportation for her oil and supplements. We don’t have a ton of options in our area, just Tribute and Purina feeds.

How much does that weigh? Do you mean it’s a coffee can that held 3lb of coffee? Or does it hold 3lb of grain? I’m guessing it’s a good bit less than the minimal feeding amount for her weight, so the reduces the “all the vitamins and minerals in her grain”. If she’s only getting 3lb of feed, then I would put her on a ration balancer instead - more nutrition - and make up any calories she needs with 1-2lb alfalfa pellets, for a much lower NSC meal.

I have been using Ultra Cruz’s synthetic, and I did wonder if 8000 IU of synthetic = 8000 IU of natural. I ordered my natural from them. I like that they have a pelleted form, which hopefully will mean less waste.

You’d have to feed roughly 10,400IU of the synthetic to equal the effect of about 8000IU of natural

I was finally able to talk to the vet. She didn’t seem convinced that her kicking behavior has anything to do with her PSSM status. She thinks that Sydney might have hind gut ulcers. I am not convinced that she fits the typical profile of a horse with ulcers. She was on a dry lot for 2 years with limited hay access, so I am sure that could have put her at risk for them. She wants me to treat her with Succeed. Having some sticker shock there. Are there other products out there that do the same thing for less?

I think I will try the natural Vitamin E first since I already ordered that, then try something for ulcers if that that doesn’t help.

I would get her selenium level tested. It may not be cheap (it’s $100 for me ) but it’s worth it, as it can take a couple months to get levels back up to normal and you don’t want to wait to try other dietary changes, waiting a few more months to see if they work, then deciding to test Se.

[Draftmare]

@JB

I may have missed it, so forgive me if I did, but what’s the timeline between changing feed the first time and seeing the quick improvement, to starting to see these new issues? I know you said you’re pretty sure it started after the diet change, just wondering how long, roughly.

I’m asking because the drop from a REALLY high sugar standard sweet feed, to something even as relatively high for a PSSM horse as 14%, could be reason enough to see lots of improvement, but then the kicking issue is just her manifestation of discomfort that she was never able to display before because she simply couldn’t.

How much does that weigh? Do you mean it’s a coffee can that held 3lb of coffee? Or does it hold 3lb of grain? I’m guessing it’s a good bit less than the minimal feeding amount for her weight, so the reduces the “all the vitamins and minerals in her grain”. If she’s only getting 3lb of feed, then I would put her on a ration balancer instead - more nutrition - and make up any calories she needs with 1-2lb alfalfa pellets, for a much lower NSC meal.

You’d have to feed roughly 10,400IU of the synthetic to equal the effect of about 8000IU of natural

I would get her selenium level tested. It may not be cheap (it’s $100 for me ) but it’s worth it, as it can take a couple months to get levels back up to normal and you don’t want to wait to try other dietary changes, waiting a few more months to see if they work, then deciding to test Se.

I have been trying to think back to when the kicking started, hoping that maybe I could pin point a change that might have caused it, but I honestly don’t know. It started at the barn I just left, which was a totally different style of horse care to the new barn. Old barn was dry lots and hay given in specific amounts twice a day. New barn is some grass and a round bale available at all times. And I am also correctly myself, its been three years since we started the diet. I forgot that this fall will be our four year anniversary, and it took about a year of a lot of money spent on vet diagnosis before I did the diet switch.

She hasn’t always been on the Kalm N EZ, we started out on Tribute Essential K, but the amounts I was needing to feed to soak up the oil was just not economical. Also tried her on Purina Special Care, wasn’t super in love with it. She’s been on the Kalm N EZ for about five months now. Since I board, and try to keep things as simple as possible, I have always been hesitant to have to ask for two different types of grain to be mixed AND the oil and supplements.

Its a coffee can that held 3 pounds of coffee. She’s getting that amount twice a day. She’s an easy keeper, so really she is getting it to help soak up the oil and “transport” her supplements.

I actually think I am going to switch her to a hay pellet, and get her a salt/mineral block. Alfalfa pellets are 9% NSC.

I will talk to the vet about getting her SE tested, I do know we live in an area of low natural occurring SE. After talking to a couple of people that use the same vet as me, it sounds like this vet pretty much wants everybody on ulcer meds. I really don’t feel like she fits the profile, so I think I will try the alfalfa pellets and the natural Vitamin E and see where that gets us.

[CFFarm]

Before it becomes an ingrained habit you could try “kicking chains”. They are usually used in the front but a light collar with dangling, small, chains might pester her enough to discourage the kicking.

[JB]

@Draftmare

I actually think I am going to switch her to a hay pellet, and get her a salt/mineral block. Alfalfa pellets are 9% NSC.

Because she still needs good quality nutrition, I’d recommend a ration balancer (so Essential K, but Triple Crown 30 if you can get it), and then add whatever alfalfa pellets you need. How much does she weigh? If she’s much more than 1200lb or so, I’d go 2lb of the RB.

I will talk to the vet about getting her SE tested, I do know we live in an area of low natural occurring SE. After talking to a couple of people that use the same vet as me, it sounds like this vet pretty much wants everybody on ulcer meds. I really don’t feel like she fits the profile, so I think I will try the alfalfa pellets and the natural Vitamin E and see where that gets us.

Just tell your vet you want to test Se She may be fine. We’re in a low area as well, but between the forage, and their RB or v/m, they’re fine. But if you find she’s on the low end of normal, you could supplement 1-2mg/day and retest in 2-3 months, and see what happens.