Mare who doesn't produce enough milk weaning ribby foal early

[Royal_Farms]

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Hi there. To anyone reading this, if you think you can help, I would love your advice. I don’t know what to do. My maiden mare had her first foal, trouble birthing and then pretty intense trouble trying to get him to nurse at first. We had to call a vet and sedate the Mama. She has not been the best mom. But it could be worse, too. So I have that to be happy about. Everything went well after she got used to the nursing, although I noticed he didn’t nurse for long when he did or as often as he probably should. He was growing alright (in height, didn’t seem to put on any weight as he got taller) and seemed in fine spirits, the vet said he was okay so I left it alone. Now that he’s three months old I expected him to start putting on some weight… He has constant access to feed in a creep and I also added in a milk supplement for just in case mama isn’t giving him enough milk. He helps eat mama’s food, hay, his own food, but he doesn’t nurse much anymore. She won’t let him often. He just keeps getting ribbier and ribbier, although this picture doesn’t do that much justice. It’s the only recent picture I have and he actually looks pretty good in it, but don’t be fooled. He’s pretty skinny. The vet noticed this the last time he was out here and we deducted that Mama doesn’t produce enough milk. The vet suspected this right after birth just because her teets were TINY, but he said that happens sometimes and does not affect the amount of milk produced, so we decided to wait and watch. The older he got, the more I realized that he wasn’t putting on any weight over his ribs at all. He didn’t seem to have much energy often and I thought it odd that he hardly ever ran around when he was turned out. Thinking back on it now, I saw him drink quite a bit of water and he would only ever nurse for about 30 seconds and then quit. Of course he would feel good on cool days and run around, so he wasn’t so lathargic as to alarm me. As he got older he just slowly started to nurse less and less, at least from what I could tell. It just be didn’t seem normal to me. He has been wormed and Mom has been checked for worms, she’s clean. I’ll try to take another picture today. Finally the vet came out to check his healing abscess, this poor guy has terrible luck, his mom most likely kicked him and he got an abscess on his face. Most likely had some bone damage and it’s taking a few months to fully heal. I suspect she kicked him while he was nursing, whether either intentionally, or at flies. Most likely at flies though. Anyway, while the vet was out, he just kept looking at the colt and finally spoke asking how old he was and if he’d been dewormed, noting how ribby he is. I said 3 months and yes. He’s on a monthly worming regimen. The vet then told me that the colt is underweight (not dangerously or anything) but he’s definitely under the curb, more so than the vet would like to see, and we talked for a few minutes and he said with how it sounded, it’s pretty much for sure Mom doesn’t produce enough milk. I can never squeeze much out when I try either. Also, she seems to already be drying up as she weans the colt herself. The supplement had caused the colt to finally gain some weight, but in the past week he also started losing weight again because she has pretty much cut off his supply of actual milk. It’s been happeneing slowly over a few weeks but more so in the past week, especially today, she just won’t let him nurse anymore. She gets super fussy and won’t let him nurse, although honestly after squeezing on her and not getting much out, I don’t think he’s getting a lot of milk anyway. I think the colt is starting to give up on nursing. It’s a lose-lose situation and I don’t have enough experience…

What should I do? Just let her wean him early? How would I even stop her from weaning him? Or should I just keep him on a similar suplentary diet that he is already on? I’m at a loss. Any help would be appreciated… thank you!!

[danacat]

No I would not wean early – it won’t help him gain weight and the stress could exacerbate the problem. Foals need their moms. And I’m sure if you took foal away, mom would be very upset.

Here are a couple of articles you can look at for supplemental knowledge:

http://www.equinews.com/article/drinking-and-eating-behavior-in-foals

https://www.southernstates.com/articles/feeding-foal-weaning.aspx

[gumtree]

Was the mare checked for udder edema after foaling? This can happen more so with maiden mares and or a difficult birth. Very painful when the foal nurses and can last for a while. A maiden mare may tend to associate pain and nursing even after the “event” has passed and be reluctant to let a foal nurse for any length of time.

How do you know, what makes you think the mare is/was not producing enough milk? Her bag not filling to the norm? Did you check her several times a day? Did she have a nice full bag at birth? Are they being raised on good grass? At 3+ months the foal should be getting a lot of it nutrients from grazing decent on decent grass. Our foals generally start getting interested in their momma’s feed bucket at around 3+ months. At 4+ to 5 months they get their own feed bucket next to their mother. They get the same feed.

Some foals like kids can be lean and ribby this will/should change in the next few months to a year. Don’t see what weaning would bring to the table at this time. Unless there are extenuating circumstances I wouldn’t wean. Esp at 3 months. 4+ at the earliest and we only do that with foals that are being sold. We generally don’t wean until at least 5+ months more like 6+. I especially wouldn’t wean if this an “only child”. If so I would find another farm with lots of weaners that the foal could board with for a few months, IMO.

Pictures speak a 1000 words and we are only working off of what has been written. I generally don’t like to comment too much on “horse care” of this type without seeing the horses in person.

[NancyM]

When I had one like this, I supplimented the milk from the mare with milk replacer, without taking the foal away from the mare. If the foal isn’t getting enough milk naturally, and they want milk, they will drink this out of a bucket. And still get the mothering they need at the same time. Building a “foal creep” in the corner of the stall, where the foal can have his own bucket with a suitable grain offered, and a hay pile of his own. I see you have done this. Is the grain you are offering suitable for foals? Don’t wean early if you don’t have to.

If the foal is not thriving, and your mare is not a good mother, and doesn’t want the foal around her, and is driving the foal away, biting or kicking at the foal, watch closely for ulcer problems. They are classic in this situation. Colic in foals IS an ulcer. If you get ulcer issues starting, THEN the foal may be better off weaned, with a friend supplied for company. But it is usually best for the foal to keep them with their mother as long as possible.

[csaper58]

Speak to your vet about worming and vaccinating the mare and foal and feeding the foal. Your vet will know the best products available where you live.

What and how much are you feeding the mare? Has her udder been examined by a vet?

Quality alfalfa hay will often help increase the mare’s milk production, but make all feed changes gradually for both mare and foal.

I agree with others who have said stomach ulcers are very likely contributing to the foal’s failure to thrive, luckily foals are inexpensive to treat with GastroGard.

If the foal will drink it, milk replacer is helpful, but it attracts flies that walk on and fall into the milk and spead bacteria that can cause life threatening diarrhea in the foal.

I prefer to feed milk replacer pellets with a ‘Junior’ type feed if the vet says your foal’s gut is developed enough to digest it.

[Royal_Farms]

No she did not have a nice full bag at birth, I mean it was tight, but it was unusually small. Yes I’ve checked her multiple times a day and she always looks dry, which means he’s drinking some, but I suspect she’s just not producing much becuase she ALWAYS looks dry. Also, the entire time he’s been alive he’s never nursed for long. 30 seconds at max is so I have ever seen him nurse. Even when she used to let him nurse without fuss it was a minute max. He didn’t nurse as often as foals are supposed to either. I also saw him drinking quite a bit of water pretty often. Also, as he got older he just started drinking milk less and less often, and she never looked engorged even once. I just don’t think she produces as much milk as most mares. Although she must’ve produce enough because he’s healthy, just skinny. I can never get much out of her when I try, but I don’t think that’s because he drinks a lot.

So- We’re pretty positive she doesn’t produce enough milk because one, her teets are unusually tiny, which isn’t always a factor, but two, I can’t squeeze much milk out of them, and three, the vet said with his weight being pretty behind the norm, that’s the most likely option. Also, after putting him on a milk supplimmet, he started gaining some weight finally, so that helps support that theory even more. But since she has started to wean him on her own, he’s started to lose a little weight again. He’s much younger than I would like to be weaned. 4 months at the least, but honestly I prefer to hold out until 6 if possible. Even if she weans him now, I’ll still keep them together.

To answer a few questions, no I didn’t not have her specifically check for udder edema, but I did have her checked over by a vet after foaling. She was a maiden mare so I think she was just difficult because it was her first. Hopefully. To answer another question, no I haven’t checked for ulcer problems, thank you. But both Mom and baby seem to be eating fine, and don’t seem to be in abdominal discomfort… Hmmm that’s something for me to look into. Although considering how they’ve been this entire time, struggling with the nursing process, I will look into it, thank you.

So I’ve been most worried about the fact that she’s been weaning him on her own when he’s only 3 months and so ribby, but then again when he may not have been getting enough milk in the first place… What is your advice? I could just continue with the milk supplement and try feeding him as much as he’ll eat at this age, which really isn’t much to be honest, he only eats some out of his creep he prefers to eat with his mom and then I don’t know how much he actually eats because his mouth is so tiny and he eat a so slow, whereas she’s a pig when it comes to food. I’ve been feeding him as much as he’ll eat, but are there any other supplements I could put him on to help him gain weight and stay healthy until he’s eating more solid good? Thanks for all the help and advice, I appreciate it.

[csaper58]

If she has no milk, what else can she do but wean him?

What do you want here? There is no magic wand anyone can wave over her to give her an udder full of milk.

Some mares just are not equipped to be broodmares, and should not be used for breeding.

If the foal is not eating much, and drinking water to sooth his burning belly, and has been undernourished up until now…

the chance that he does not have ulcers are practically nil. He is loosing weight because the little bit of food he consumed stimulated his body to try to grow and now his nutrition can’t keep up.

[findeight]

There should be some type feed out there specifically formulated to add nutrition to the diet of still nursing, ore weaning foals. Maybe look into that. Long ago we added something called Calf Manna to both nursing mare and foal diets (and anything else that needed a little nutritional boost). Know those who still use it out in rural farm country. It’s easily available and it’s fed in addition to the regular diet, not as a replacement.

IMO he doesn’t look that skinny in the photo, looks pretty decent for 3 months, little ribby but as fast as they grow at this age and with those legs to grow into? It looks like he has gotten enough milk whether you observed it or not and is telling you he’s ready for more solid food and concentrates. That does NOT mean he needs to be taken off the mare early, it just means he needs a better diet. Little more time spent at her side, whether she dotes on him or not, usually get a bit more of a willing attitude into them and can make weaning easier on both as they are about over each other anyway at the 6 month point. Still traumatic but baby is better able to handle it and bounce back then at 3 months, maybe even 4.

Very wise suggestion upthread you find a place with others going through the trauma of weaning so they don’t have to suffer alone. That’s why the big breeding farms are so successful and handling that weaning process, there is comfort in company and they get over it quicker.

Totally anecdotal but some really bad mannered and pushy adult horses I’ve come across were either " bottle babies" (orphaned or rejected with no nurse mare available) or had been weaned very early. Something missing in the social development I suppose, possibly complicated by too much invasive human contact and not enough equine contacts to observe and model their future behavior.

[Ticker]

Domperidone is an oral medication that is commonly used on mares to increase milk production. I’ve used it many times on mares that needed help producing more milk, even a few with an older foal like yours. Worked every time for us.
I should think that your vet would know this?
Good luck to you.

[Royal_Farms]

Thank you everyone! All of he advice was very helpful. I just want him to get all of the nutrition he needs, which is why I’m asking questions. As you can tell I’m new to the breeding world. Thanks again.

[candyappy]

If she is weaning him on her own not much you can do. Keep them together to minimize his stress and have feed available for him that she can’t get to. Calf manna is an excellent addition to any feed and something you could add to whatever you are feeding him. Would add a high % of protein and it doesn’t take much of it.

I have used it on my lactating milk cow and goat kids with excellent results. It is safe for horses and the feeding instructions are on the bag.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

I have a mare just like this. She would punt her first foal across the stall but after some days, she came around and nursed the filly fine but didn’t make enough milk.

While we were adjusting diet diet and the vet was giving domperidone, we supplemented the filly with milk replacer pellets but left her with her mother.

Keep in mind that time with mom is about much much more than eating. There is no reason to pull a goal from Mom early because of a lack of milk production. Feed Mom a little mare and foal when you feed the foal his pellets so Mom won’t eat babies food. The baby will nurse as much as possible but won’t be lacking in nutrition if you supplement properly. If he puts his head in mom’s bucket and eats a little of the mare and foal feed also, that’s okay too. I had to raise both of this mare’s foals in this fashion and both turned out to be strong , healthy, level headed horses.

Another alternative is to try to find a wet mare who lost her foal.

​​​​​​​I do this with rabbit babies when doe doesn’t produce enough as well.

[alibi_18]

@Royal Farms

Thank you everyone! All of he advice was very helpful. I just want him to get all of the nutrition he needs, which is why I’m asking questions. As you can tell I’m new to the breeding world. Thanks again.

If you are new to the breeding world, you should be followed more closely by a vet.

If you want to know if he’s getting all he needs, you need to have tests done by a vet.

What is your weaning plan? Will he have a friend?

[Laurierace]

What exactly is your worming regimen? Meaning product and amount and frequency? I think I would start by treating them both for ulcers with ulcergard.

[Royal_Farms]

@alibi_18

If you are new to the breeding world, you should be followed more closely by a vet.

If you want to know if he’s getting all he needs, you need to have tests done by a vet.

What is your weaning plan? Will he have a friend?

[csaper58]

@Royal Farms Do you have one of these foal feeders? it is designed so the mare can not get her nose into it, but the foal can. www.statelinetack.com/item/duraflex-foal-feeder-9-quart/SLT700559/ Most feed stores carry these or something like them.

You can also build a foal creep feeder. There are examples if you google images.

More jingles!

[Royal_Farms]

He has had regular checkups by the vet, but I used a different vet this last time and he’s the one that noticed he was a little underweight. So it’s partly my fault for not using the right equine vet up until now for the check ups. I had asked the other vet previously about it and they told me he was fine, so that’s why nothing further was done or discussed.

I’m currently in contact with a new vet who’s taking good care of the colt, but he didn’t suggest any tests needing to be done. We have him on a good milk supplement called Foal-Lac Pellets and he’s also being fed Heritage BigV Mare and Foal 16% around the clock in his creep feeder and with Mom, so we’re figuring out the best diet for him. I’m just getting extra advice on here, but don’t worry I’m in contact with a vet. I’ll bring up the topic about the tests the next time we talk.

My weaning plan is to separate he and his mother at 6 months of age but in paddocks next to each other, and hopefully he’ll get used to being separated more and more from her as I take her off and ride her where he can’t see her or hear her. I plan to sell him at 8 months of age, but during the time he’s still at my place he will have friends on either side of him. I’m hesitant to put him in the same pasture as another horse because they all either have shoes or are young but much bigger, and he has already gotten kicked in the head once by Mom and has an injury that’s still healing. I’ll either put him with a very motherly mare I have who is unlikely to hurt him but will show him the ropes, or a young gelding who is very level headed and easy going as well. It just depends on who he gets along with.

[Royal_Farms]

@alibi_18

If you are new to the breeding world, you should be followed more closely by a vet.

If you want to know if he’s getting all he needs, you need to have tests done by a vet.

What is your weaning plan? Will he have a friend?

He has had regular checkups by the vet, but I used a different vet this last time and he’s the one that noticed he was a little underweight. So it’s partly my fault for not using the right equine vet up until now for the check ups. I had asked the other vet previously about it and they told me he was fine, so that’s why nothing further was done or discussed.

I’m currently in contact with a new vet who’s taking good care of the colt, but he didn’t suggest any tests needing to be done. We have him on a good milk supplement called Foal-Lac Pellets and he’s also being fed Heritage BigV Mare and Foal 16% around the clock in his creep feeder and with Mom, so we’re figuring out the best diet for him. I’m just getting extra advice on here, but don’t worry I’m in contact with a vet. I’ll bring up the topic about the tests the next time we talk.

My weaning plan is to separate he and his mother at 6 months of age but in paddocks next to each other, and hopefully he’ll get used to being separated more and more from her as I take her off and ride her where he can’t see her or hear her. I plan to sell him at 8 months of age, but during the time he’s still at my place he will have friends on either side of him. I’m hesitant to put him in the same pasture as another horse because they all either have shoes or are young but much bigger, and he has already gotten kicked in the head once by Mom and has an injury that’s still healing. I’ll either put him with a very motherly mare I have who is unlikely to hurt him but will show him the ropes, or a young gelding who is very level headed and easy going as well. It just depends on who he gets along with.

[Royal_Farms]

@Laurierace

What exactly is your worming regimen? Meaning product and amount and frequency? I think I would start by treating them both for ulcers with ulcergard.

Panacur double dose once a month. That’s what the vet recommended. I will definitely ask my vet about treating them with ulcerguard, thank you!

[China_Doll]

Most foals are ribby but what bothers me is how big his belly is. could be worms. Did you worm a few weeks prior to birth? http://www.foalcare.com/foal/deworming.aspx